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When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

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sovereigngrace

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mkgal1 said:
Ah.....so that's the story you tell yourself.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between some of your posts that rely 95% on the opinions of others, and mine, that are 95% to 100% my own thoughts.

I don't want to get into pettiness. Would you please address the scriptural arguments presented?
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace said:
There is a big difference between some of your posts that rely 95% on the opinions of others, and mine, that are 95% to 100% my own thoughts.

I don't want to get into pettiness. Would you please address the scriptural arguments presented?
Click to expand...
I've already said (a few times) that I will respond to those when I have the proper time and concentration to do so (but really, I'm not obligated to post anything in response to your demands). This is supposed to be a group discussion.
 
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Oldmantook

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Be careful whom you call ignorant of scripture. I graduated from seminary and although there were a lot of other guys a whole lot smarter than me, I wouldn't label myself amongst the ignorant crowd. In fact it appears that your knowledge of sin and forgiveness is quite lacking. You are apparently not aware that there is a difference between purification from sin and forgiveness of sin since you cite Numbers 19 which deal with ritual purification rites. To be ritually pure means to be free of some flaw or uncleanness which would bar one from contact with holy objects or places, especially from contact with the holy presence of God in worship. God is the ideal of purity, and those who are to come in contact with God's presence are also to be pure. Examples of ritual uncleanness are:
  1. Anyone who touches or eats the carcass of an unclean animal becomes ritually unclean. (Leviticus 11)
  2. Anyone who touches or eats the carcass of a clean animal that dies of itself, or is torn by wild animals, becomes ritually unclean. (Leviticus 11:29-31)
  3. Any article that has come in contact with a ritually unclean object becomes ritually unclean. (Leviticus 11:31-38)
  4. Menstruous women are ritually unclean. (Leviticus 15:19-24)
  5. Women after childbirth are ritually unclean. (Leviticus 12:2)
  6. Anyone with a spreading skin disease is ritually unclean. (Leviticus 13:2-46)
  7. Any clothing contaminated with a spreading disease is ritually unclean. (Leviticus 13:47-59)
  8. A house contaminated by a spreading disease is ritually unclean. (Leviticus 14:34-57)
  9. A man having an abnormal discharge (zab) is ritually unclean. (Leviticus 15:2-15)
  10. Anyone or anything coming into contact with sperm becomes ritually unclean. (Leviticus 15:16-18)
  11. A woman with an abnormal discharge (zabah) is ritually unclean. (Leviticus 15:19, 25-28)
  12. A human corpse and anyone who comes near it is ritually unclean. (Numbers 19:11-16)
  13. The purification water purifies the ritually unclean. (Numbers 19:2-22)
  14. Those ritually unclean must purify at the appointed time by laundering their clothes and immersing in water. (Leviticus 15:27)
  15. Those ritually unclean of a spreading skin disease must follow the specified purification procedure. (Leviticus 14:2-32)
  16. Those unclean of a spreading skin disease must shave off all their hair. (Leviticus 14:9)
  17. Those unclean of a spreading skin disease must be easily distinguishable. (Leviticus 13:45)
  18. The ashes of the red heifer are to be used in ritual purification. (Numbers 19:2-9)
Your citation of Num 19 evidences that you do not understand the difference between ceremonial uncleanness and sin resulting from moral failure. Num 19 deals with becoming unclean through contact with contaminated objects, diseased/dead things and specifies the washings one must undergo to become ritually clean again. It does not deal with the taking away of moral sin. If you insist and believe otherwise, may I remind you that Jesus touched a leper to heal him in Lk 5:12-13. Did Jesus sin when he touched the diseased leper? Answer: yes or no? I presume you know the right answer, thus Numbers 19 cannot be used as proof for your belief as it deals with being unclean - NOT SINFUL.

Why do you cite Leviticus 4? Are you not aware of the difference between forgiveness and the taking away of sin?? Jesus alone takes away sin; no animal sacrifice is capable of taking away sin. The only thing animal sacrifice does is cover for sin - it DOES NOT TAKE AWAY SIN. Jn 1:29 states "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! There is not a single verse in either the O.T. or N.T. that states that the blood of an animal takes away sin. That is why the Lamb of God is a perfect and better sacrifice! You have been arguing all along that Jesus fulfilled the animal sacrifices, which is true, yet you appear oblivious to the mechanism by which He did so. The root of the Hebrew word translated “atonement” in the Old Testament is kaphar, which has the idea of “covering,” not total removal. Noah covered/kaphar the ark with pitch. Animal sacrifices were nothing more than a "band-aid" as they covered sin but did not remove sin. That is why the sacrifices in the O.T. continued on an ongoing basis as they covered over sin but did not remove the sins of the people. And that is why Heb 10:4 confirms that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. The words "The words "take away” in verse 11 is translated from the Greek aphairein which means take away, remove, cut off.
Strong's number: 851
Frequency in New Testament:
10
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
cv-1d(2a)
Gloss:
to take away from, remove; to cut (off)
Definition:
to take away, remove, Lk. 1:25; 10:42; to take off, cut off, remove by cutting off, Mt. 26:15; Mk. 14:47; Lk. 22:50

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. (Hebrews 10:10–12)

Jesus' sacrificial atonement cut off sin, removed sin, took away sin - that which animal sacrifice never accomplished as it only covered over sin. Jesus' sacrifice was once, for all sins whereas animal sacrifice was ongoing for each sin. Because you have failed to comprehend this, you misunderstand the relationship between the old and new covenants and thus you have misinterpreted the chapters in Ezekiel misconstruing them as fulfilled in Christ. The animal sacrifices in Ezekiel are depicted as ongoing; the text does not state that they cease. They continue because they serve to remind the people of their sins and point to Jesus who rules with a rod of iron during this Millennial time period.

If you continue to insist that what I have written about these chapters in Ezekiel is untrue because
Jesus has already fulfilled and done away with these sacrifices which have already occurred in the past, then I suggest you read more carefully as Eze 43:7 states:
The voice said to me, “Son of man, this is the place where my throne is and the place where my feet rest. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. Then the people of Israel and their kings will no longer dishonor my holy name by acting like prostitutes, nor will they dishonor it with the dead bodies of their kings. This verse states that God will live; not God is living among the Israelites forever. Furthermore it states that Israel will no longer dishonor God's name. Has Israel met this requirement either at any time in the past or up till the present day? Yes or No? The answer should be obvious as Israel does even recognize the name of Jesus as their Messiah and have not repented of their sins. Thus, Eze 40-48 points to a future time when this will occur and has not already happened as you believe.

I think I have made my point. If you still disagree, that's your prerogative so I see no need to continue my discussion as what I write does not influence you.
 
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Oldmantook

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Not quite true. You cannot use a partial truth to prove your point as Scripture describes on several occasions the glory of God filling the temple. When God commanded the creation of the Tent of Meeting he took up residence in that tent and was mobile, just as the people were mobile. Later when Solomon built the Temple, God took up residence in the Temple by manifesting His glory there (1 Kings 8:1-11).
God has done it in the past so there is no reason why He will not do so again in the future.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Oldmantook said:
Your citation of Num 19 evidences that you do not understand the difference between ceremonial uncleanness and sin resulting from moral failure.
Click to expand...

Except the word sin is used there. Yes, there were many ways one could be 'unclean,' but the water is mixed with the blood of the sacrifice and it says it purifies from sin. That's what it was for. Later we'll see the very same pattern in new testament baptism. The way we make contact with the blood sacrifice of Jesus today is by baptism. That's what Paul explains in Romans 6. The difference is that we don't burn an animal outside the camp and mix the ashes with the water. Jesus was sacrificed outside the camp just as the red heifer was.

But why were the animals offered?

Romans 13:10-12
We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Why do you cite Leviticus 4? Are you not aware of the difference between forgiveness and the taking away of sin?? Jesus alone takes away sin; no animal sacrifice is capable of taking away sin.
Click to expand...

After Jesus fulfilled the law, no animal sacrifice took away sin. Before that, animal sacrifices indeed took away sin. I know this because God said they did. In fact, the meaning of the word forgiveness in Greek also translated 'remission' means to forsake or leave. Same as the Hebrew word for forgiveness. In the Septuagint, the word used in Leviticus there is the same word used in the New Testament a form of afimi - to forsake or to take away.

καὶ ἀφεθήσεται αὐτοῗς ἡ ἁμαρτία
And to be taken away their sins.

Under the old law, there is really no question that sins were taken away by these sacrifices. In Hebrews, when Paul says the sacrifices "can never" take away sin, he is writing in the present tense and the law has been abolished. He says so in chapter 8. It's gone, fulfilled and can no longer provide remission or forsaking of sin because the one perfect sacrifice had been made once for all.

But while the law was in effect, the scripture makes it plain that sins were forgiven, forsaken, taken away.

The only thing animal sacrifice does is cover for sin - it DOES NOT TAKE AWAY SIN.
Click to expand...

But God said it did. What you're preaching here is not scriptural. If God changes not, then he always took away sin. You also need to pay attention to what Paul says in Hebrews 8:10. He says that the reason that the law was made obsolete was not because the law was imperfect, but because of the people.

"for finding fault with them, he says...."
Jn 1:29 states "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! There is not a single verse in either the O.T. or N.T. that states that the blood of an animal takes away sin.
Click to expand...

I've already given you the scriptures that say unequivocally that they did.

That is why the Lamb of God is a perfect and better sacrifice!
Click to expand...

He is a better sacrifice because he is a single sacrifice that replaces the many. It took one animal per sin under the old law. The goat on the day of atonement was for ununtentional sin of the congregation, the individual sin offering, for a person's sin. Under the new Covenant God forsakes all sins through the one sacrifice as Paul makes clear. Interesting that Paul references numbers here.

13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


You have been arguing all along that Jesus fulfilled the animal sacrifices, which is true, yet you appear oblivious to the mechanism by which He did so.
Click to expand...

The mechanism was by offering himself as a sacrifice once for all.


The root of the Hebrew word translated “atonement” in the Old Testament is kaphar, which has the idea of “covering,” not total removal.
Click to expand...

Ok.. Why do you think that has anything to do with Leviticus 4? It has nothing at all to do with Leviticus 4. The Hebrew word there is not kaphar, it is wan-is-lah - forgiven

When the 70 Hebrew experts in 300BC translated the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek in Alexandria, they used the word ἀφεθήσεται - the very same word used throughout the New Testament translated 'forgiven.' Because, that's what the word means and that was what God said was happening.

So you've accepted some preacher's teaching on this who sold you a pig in a poke. God forgave sins back then. But if you sinned on the way home from the temple, you were required under the law to turn right back around and offer another animal.
 
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claninja

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I typically hold the resurrection of the just and unjust to have occurred around the time of the destruction of the Jerusalem. For in Daniel 12, we see that when the power of the holy people is shattered then would be completed the events of Daniel 12 which included the resurrection of the just and unjust.

this correlates nicely with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple occurring in the 1st century (this generation)and Paul’s statement that The resurrection of the just and unjust was “about to” occur (acts 24:15).

I view the 1st resurrection as being born again and the 2nd resurrection as going from natural body to spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44).

I typically don’t hold that the resurrection for believers is the Exact same as Christ’s. Christ’s flesh was prophesied to not see decay (acts 2:27). However believers were never given that same promise. I know plenty of believers whose flesh has decayed. Thus we go from natural body to spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44)

while dispensationalists typically hold to a rapture first, then resurrection of the dead (which is the exact opposite of scripture), I hold to the resurrection of the dead then After that, those who are in Christ are caught to be forever with the Lord, as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. In other words, I hold that the resurrection of the just and unjust occurred around 66-70ad, and from that point on believers, who remain alive and physically die in the Lord are raised in a spiritual body and caught up to heaven. Thus this consummates the Ezekiel temple which is where Gods throne is and his footstool is (Ezekiel 43:6-7) where he forever dwells with his people
 
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Al Touthentop

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I don't know about your distinction. Jesus said that at the resurrection that no longer would men take women for marriage. So if that's talking about 70AD something seems amiss. Also, from what Paul says about the resurrection that when that happens it would seem we are getting new incorruptable physical bodies.

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
 
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Oldmantook

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The word sin is there. The sin was covered over (temporarily) - not taken away (permanently) - two distinct outcomes - which is the fundamental difference between the old and new covenants.
Our sins are NOT covered - they are removed!!! - Sermon Index

Al Touthentop said:
Ok.. Why do you think that has anything to do with Leviticus 4? It has nothing at all to do with Leviticus 4. The Hebrew word there is not kaphar, it is wan-is-lah - forgiven
Click to expand...
Because the atonement is the provision for forgiveness. The animal sacrifices provided forgiveness only temporarily as they did not TAKE AWAY sin. That is why they had to be regularly done on an ongoing basis and did not stop. However, the atonement provided through Jesus' sacrificial blood did and does take away all types of sin - permanently.
 
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Al Touthentop

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No. The word there is forgive, it's not atone. Both the Greek and the Hebrew use the word forgive. You are not looking at the scripture. The word is properly translated.
 
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claninja

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correct, Jesus said in the resurrection there is no longer marriage (Matthew 22:30).

I am still in the natural body, I assume you are too, thus we still marry. But those who are worthy to partake in the resurrection no longer marry. Thus thiose who physically die and go home to be with the Lord no longer marry.

I believe “the age to come” is the consummation of the body of Christ. It is the the place of his throne (heaven) it is his footstool (earth). It is where God dwells with His people forever (Ezekiel 43:6-7). Thus we are never separated from the Father, whether we are in the natural body (earth) or in the spiritual body (heaven).

blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on (revelation 14:13)
 
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Al Touthentop

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Oldmantook said:
I'm aware of the difference. The animal sacrifices did provide for forgiveness - IMPERFECT & ONE TIME ONLY. Jesus' atoning sacrifice - PERFECT & FOR ALL TIME. Is that so hard to understand?
Click to expand...

It was perfect forgiveness but it was one time only. We're almost on the exact same page.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace said:
To own the "preterist" title associates us with error at best, and grievous heresy at worst, so we don't have to go there.
Click to expand...
The core point of preterism is that Jesus had given time statements - specifically one example is: " Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" (Matthew 24:34). Instead of trying to line this up with OUR expectations - we begin with the words of Jesus first.​
mkgal1 said:
Except for when that "passionate desire" is based on prophecy and promises of a Messiah (like in Daniel and Isaiah). It's our desires that lead us to God in the first place.
Click to expand...

sovereigngrace said:
Show exact Scripture please. Where are you talking about?
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Mainly the prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9). Ancient Jews had been in anticipation of their Messiah (and even Herod recognized the time was "right" for Messiah to be born - which is why Herod commanded that all the baby boys under age of two to be killed (Matthew 2).

Daniel 8:17 ~ "Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.​

Daniel 9:20-27 ~ While I was speaking, praying, confessing my sin and that of my people Israel, and presenting my petition before the LORD my God concerning His holy mountain— while I was still praying, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. He instructed me and spoke with me, saying: “O Daniel, I have come now to give you insight and understanding. At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message and understand the vision: Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.f Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.Then after the sixty-two weeks,h the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”​

Luke 1:11-19 ~
And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. “You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. “And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. “It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Zacharias said to the angel, “How will I know this for certain? For I am an old man and my wife is advanced in years.” The angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.

Luke 1:26-38 ~
Gabriel Foretells Jesus’ Birth​

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,b you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.c ”. Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!” “How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born d will be called the Son of God. Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month. For no word from God will ever fail.e ” “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.”



sovereigngrace said:
Scripture matters more to me than your links, writers and teachers. It is Scripture that forbids Preterism!!
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Well.....I disagree (obviously). I believe Scripture fully reveals the truth of preterism (or else I wouldn't have this belief).​

sovereigngrace said:
In their theology, Premillennialism and Preterism welcome “the cares of this world (or age),” and every vice pertaining to it, into the “age to come,” thus negating the whole juxtapose between the two ages.
Click to expand...
I'm not too sure what you mean by "welcome the cares of this world (or age)".....but I, personally, recognize the imperfections that we live with. Lysa Terkeurst uses the phrase "between two gardens" to describe where we are right now (and I agree with that). All is NOT reconciled to Him. He's still in the process (as is humanity) of purification and making all things new (I believe).​
 
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sovereigngrace

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So Daniel texts are the only OT passages that you believe are pointing to Preterism?

These passages all fit in well with what many of us believe that Daniel 9 is historic and proves that Christ was the Messiah 2000 years ago. The destruction of the temple was a result of Israel’s willful rebellion against their Messiah.

I will await your response to the many Scriptures and main arguments that show the contrast between this carnal corrupt age and the eternal perfect state that is to come at the last day, when
Jesus comes.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace said:
So Daniel texts are the only OT passages that you believe are pointing to Preterism?
Click to expand...
No, of course not, but I'm not going to use up all the space of this forum in order to quote most of the Bible to you. I already regret spending the time quoting large chunks of the Bible when just saying "the Messianic prophecies" should have been sufficient.

Time statements mean something - and God, through the prophets and the Old Testament - used these statements to demonstrate His faithfulness. The prophecy of Daniel is just ONE example:

The poster here, Christian Gedge, has devoted a lot of time and study towards this topic: Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

This lines up with the Scripture, to me, and with history:
 
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sovereigngrace

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Most historicists and idealists agree with the preterists in regard to Daniel 9. So this does not prove preterists
 
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mkgal1

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The "heaven and earth" written about here (and in a lot of NT passages) is referring to the covenant God made with Israel.
This quote in Hebrews is from:

Psalms 102:25-27 ~ Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.​


This quotation from Psalms speaks of the permanence and unchangeableness of the Messiah. This section is dealing with Jesus' superiority over angels. The word for "beginning" in Hebrews 1:10 is arche, which simply means: "a commencement." It does not have to mean the beginning of time, but simply means the beginning of the thing under discussion, in this case the heaven and earth.

We're supposed to get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament. I've found these passages:

Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended.

Deuteronomy 32:1 (NKJV) "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
​
In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel.

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" can refer to governments and rulers, and "earth" can refer to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah.

Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;
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Here again, God is speaking to Judah and Jerusalem and he calls them, "O heavens" and "O earth."

Isaiah 1:10 (NKJV) Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah:​

God is still talking to Israel and He calls them, "Sodom and Gomorrah." The literal Sodom and Gomorrah had been destroyed for some time. Here we see "rulers" used for "heavens" in verse 2, and "people" used for "earth." So the terms "heaven and earth" can be used to speak of rulers and people of a nation. I don't believe the old testament was referring to a literal physical heaven and earth in these passages. Look at:

Isaiah 51:12-13 (NKJV) "I, even I, am He who comforts you. Who are you that you should be afraid Of a man who will die, And of the son of a man who will be made like grass? 13 And you forget the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth; You have feared continually every day Because of the fury of the oppressor, When he has prepared to destroy. And where is the fury of the oppressor?
​
God is talking to Israel here. Is he talking to them about the creation of the physical world? Verse 13 sounds like the creation of the physical planet. But notice how Youngs Literal Translation puts verse 13:

Isaiah 51:13 (YLT) And thou dost forget Jehovah thy maker, Who is stretching out the heavens, and founding earth, And thou dost fear continually all the day, Because of the fury of the oppressor, As he hath prepared to destroy. And where is the fury of the oppressor?​

Notice that it is in the present tense. God is saying to Israel that He "is" stretching out the heavens and founding the earth. Was God still creating the physical creation? I don't think so.

Isaiah 51:14-16 (NKJV) The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed, That he should not die in the pit, And that his bread should not fail. 15 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"
​
Do you see that the time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15), and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, "Thou art my people". What do those terms speak of? God did this when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth; that is, brought forth order, and government.

So, the term "heaven and earth" is used in Scripture for something other than the physical creation, it is used to speak of the nation Israel (in my belief).
 
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mkgal1

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What others have to get past are all the imminent time statements that are presented to us in the Bible. Statements like:


1. “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 3:2)

2. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Matt. 3:7)

3. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees.” (Matt. 3:10)

4. “His winnowing fork is in His hand.” (Matt. 3:12)

5. “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 4:17)

6. “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 10:7)

7. “You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes.” (Matt. 10:23)

8. “…the age about to come.” (Matt. 12:32)

9. “The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.” (Matt. 16:27)

10. “There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. “‘When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?’ ‘…He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.’ ‘…Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.’ …When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.” (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Matt. 24:34) (In regards to the Parousia of Jesus, the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age)

13. “From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. “The kingdom of God is at hand.” (Mk. 1:15)

15. “What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. …They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them.” (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30) (In regards to the Parousia of Jesus, the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees.” (Lk. 3:9)

19. “His winnowing fork is in His hand…” (Lk. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others.” …The scribes and the chief priests…understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

24. “This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32) (In regards to the Parousia of Jesus, the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age)

25. “Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. “We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

27. “I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.’ …’Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'” (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” (Jn. 21:22) (regarding John)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…” (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham’s] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. “It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day IS at hand.” (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will SOON crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world IS passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for OUR instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

41. “WE shall not all fall sleep, but WE shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52) (he said they would experience the change before they died)

42. “Maranatha!” [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. “…not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. “The gospel …WAS proclaimed in all creation under heaven.” (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7) (thus fulfilling what Jesus said must happen before his Parousia)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…WE who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4) (he said they would be alive to experience the Parousia and Resurrection)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23) (their bodies would be preserved, as in, not die, before the Parousia)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to US as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …[you] Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to [us] all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in THESE LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14) (salvation would be complete after the temple)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. “For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it’s end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever IS becoming obsolete and growing old IS ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13) (Old Cov was still there, but waning!)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “NOW once AT the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a VERY little while, He who is coming will come, and WILL NOT DELAY.” (Heb. 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

69. “Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty.” (Jms. 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. “[YOU] Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7) (to THEM!)

72. “YOU too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of YOU.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, [you] be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. “For it IS time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness IS passing away, and the true light IS already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

84. “The world IS passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

85. “It IS the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “THIS IS that of the antichrist, of which YOU have heard that it is coming, and NOW it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch…prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, ‘In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.’ These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what YOU have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

93. “I also will keep YOU from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

96. “And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

98. “Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:7)

99. “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is NEAR.” (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26 for a parallel verse. In Dn he is told TO seal up the scroll for the time is NOT near…)

100. “Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. “Yes, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:20)
 
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