When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

Great quote from Hebrews. It’s more when the old became obsolete.

“It is Finished” is probably what most scholars would say. But others would say the empty tomb and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was the proof of “It is Finished.”

Yet we know God’s plan of salvation is eternal before the foundations of the Earth (creation).

Disappeared:

Historically both covenants were “practiced” (the old being obsolete) in the Roman Empire until the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem ca. 70AD.


So hopefully I’ve added some “fodder” for discussion.

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:


When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

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Upon His death. The veil was torn in two in the Temple. No longer was the Holy of Holy's for the Priests to enter, it was now obsolete and all who believe have entered into a New Covenant through the Body of Christ and His Kingdom.
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

mkgal1 said:

​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

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The old covenant was nailed to the cross. It died when Jesus said "it is finished." Paul here is talking about the destruction of the temple in my opinion which thereby prevented any more animal sacrifices from being made. He talks about how the priests were still offering sacrifices which could no longer cover sins since the one sacrifice had already been made. So the covenant was dead, but the destruction of the temple was the final nail in the coffin as it were.

The new temple had been rebuilt in Jesus Christ himself. (See John 2)

I don't personally believe it has come to an end. I will share why at a later time.

Blessings.
Ken

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:


When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

Click to expand...

I think you forgot the 1st question on the list:

"When did the old covenant end?"

mkgal1 said:

I recently came across an article related to this. Something I'd never heard pointed out before is that Jesus had previously stated, even before going to the Cross, that He had "completed the work which You have given Me to do." (in John 17:4). But, obviously, no one considers His work "done" at that point.

Here's another quote from that same article that was something "new" for me to contemplate as well:

Quoting from linked article: The solution is understanding the significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and how our salvation wasn't truly "finished" until that time ~ Why "It is Finished" was Finished in AD 70 — A New Day Dawning​

Click to expand...

Are you going to answer these all briefly on one post? That's what I asked for:

"So, can you answer these brief questions for me? I don't need long answers or even scriptural support at this juncture. I am trying ascertain what you believe!"

mkgal1 said:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

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God lives outside of time....so practically speaking, it does not matter.

But from the human perspective:

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Jesus referenced his blood. But the timing is not critical.

sovereigngrace said:

A large part of what you present in your posts seems to be mainly based on man's opinions rather than the Word of God.

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The main point was that there are those who are not full preterist that believe in the present reality of the new heavens and new earth. This is similar to the common amil teaching of the "already but not yet".

sovereigngrace said:

That seems to be the main thrust of your argument. I find that disturbing.

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I find it disturbing that you keep avoiding to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I find it disturbing that as a self proclaimed Amil, you agree with the teachings of scofield that "genea" refers to stock or race.

I find it disturbing that although you say you use scripture to interpret scripture, the evidence of your posts suggests that is not always true.

sovereigngrace said:

When did the old covenant end?

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Its ending began at the cross

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second

sovereigngrace said:

When did the new covenant begin?

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At the cross, in Christ

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many

sovereigngrace said:

When did "the last days" begin?

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When Christ came in the flesh

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

sovereigngrace said:

When will "the last days" finish?

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Depends on what is meant by "the last days". I hold it to the mean the last days of the old covenant age. For the old obsolete covenant was soon to vanish away in the 1st century

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

sovereigngrace said:

When is the "end of the age"?

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1st coming of Jesus leading up to the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

sovereigngrace said:

When is the day of redemption?

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The resurrection of the just and unjust

sovereigngrace said:

When did "this age" arrive?

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Either at creation or after the flood.

sovereigngrace said:

When does "this age" end?

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the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple

sovereigngrace said:

When do the new heavens and new earth arrive?

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passing away of the old heavens and old earth

sovereigngrace said:

When did the kingdom of God begin?

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At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.

sovereigngrace said:

When does "the age to come" arrive?

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the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple

sovereigngrace said:

his is what Spurgeon wrote on Revelation 21:3-4. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"When there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and the Church shall be in her new and glorified condition, then there will be no need for all those purifying forces which have been so active here below. There shall be no death, nor sorrow nor crying, nor pain, nor trial of any kind; all shall be happiness for all shall be holiness. And then, as God dwelt of old among his people in the wilderness, and as Jesus Christ, the Word, was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, so in that new world shall God reveal himself to his people by a special indwelling and a peculiar nearness."

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Which shows that Spurgeon holds to the "already but not yet" which is common among Amil.
So I see no issue here, for it agrees with my beliefls.

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Luke 16:16 The Law & the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached & everyone is forcing his way into it.

Matt 11:11-15 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence & the violent lay claim to it.

13For all the Prophets & the Law prophesied UNTIL JOHN. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

John 1:14-17 The Word became flesh & made His tabernacle (dwelling) among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one & only Son from the Father, full of grace & truth. John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’”

16From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace & truth CAME through Jesus Christ.

Please also read 2 Corinthians Chapter 3 & Hebrews chapters 8 & 9.

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:


When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

Click to expand...

Technically, never. There is one Covenant of Grace for OT and NT saints (this is called Covenant Theology). And there is only one law - love - thus the Mosaic Law can never really expire. I accept no distinctions between OT and NT saints.

What exactly was the Mosaic Law? Due to differing circumstances, the divine Voice speaks different commands/laws to different nations, generations, and individuals. The Mosaic Law was simply the divine Voice articulating a set of precepts for the nation Israel at that time.

In the strictest sense, written law actually expires the moment received. Why so? Because God's voice issues commands FOR THE CURRENT MOMENT. Written law is never obligatory in the strictest sense, because circumstances may have changed since the issuance.

By Christ's day, the Jews were still performing ceremonies outmoded largely due to changes of circumstances. Therefore God used a neat little trick to officially expire them - He declared for Israel a New Covenant and thus:

"Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has [officially] made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

This is possible because the one Covenant of Grace can spawn any number of new covenants (as long as said covenants don't contradict it), for instance Jesus instituted the Eucharist sacrament which He called a "new covenant" - once again a trick with that same purpose, namely, to help officially expire Israel's Old Covenant.

In the strictest sense, Israel's New Covenant is only for Israel,not for the Gentiles, because it refers to the restoration of Israel (which will be either in heaven or a millennial reign, depending on one's eschatology) and thus is not actually inaugurated as yet. It is a covenant created strictly "For the House of Israel and House of Judah" and thus not for the Gentiles. And yet, because it is spawned by the Covenant of Grace, many of its grace-elements are somewhat applicable to all believers (and this was true in both testaments). Israel's New Covenant is a doctrine relevant for all of us, as we see in Hebrews, because it helps to shift our focus away from the earthly high priest and toward our heavenly High Priest.

"My sheep hear my voice" (Jn 10:27). Literally nothing has changed. We are to obey the same Voice that governed Israel in yesteryear.

claninja said:

I find it disturbing that you keep avoiding to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I find it disturbing that as a self proclaimed Amil, you agree with the teachings of scofield that "genea" refers to stock or race.

I find it disturbing that although you say you use scripture to interpret scripture, the evidence of your posts suggests that is not always true.



Its ending began at the cross

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second



At the cross, in Christ

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many



When Christ came in the flesh

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.



Depends on what is meant by "the last days". I hold it to the mean the last days of the old covenant age. For the old obsolete covenant was soon to vanish away in the 1st century

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.



1st coming of Jesus leading up to the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come



The resurrection of the just and unjust



Either at creation or after the flood.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple



passing away of the old heavens and old earth



At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:


When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

Click to expand...

Can you add two more questions to this post:

When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

mkgal1 said:

I used that for the title of this thread.

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Can you add it to the list for the sake of clarity? It is not clear that that was on my list.

Ken Rank said:

I don't personally believe it has come to an end. I will share why at a later time.

Blessings.
Ken

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In spite of the fact that Paul wrote it did?

claninja said:

The main point was that there are those who are not full preterist that believe in the present reality of the new heavens and new earth. This is similar to the common amil teaching of the "already but not yet".



I find it disturbing that you keep avoiding to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I find it disturbing that as a self proclaimed Amil, you agree with the teachings of scofield that "genea" refers to stock or race.

I find it disturbing that although you say you use scripture to interpret scripture, the evidence of your posts suggests that is not always true.



Its ending began at the cross

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second



At the cross, in Christ

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many



When Christ came in the flesh

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.



Depends on what is meant by "the last days". I hold it to the mean the last days of the old covenant age. For the old obsolete covenant was soon to vanish away in the 1st century

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.



1st coming of Jesus leading up to the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come



The resurrection of the just and unjust



Either at creation or after the flood.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple



passing away of the old heavens and old earth



At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple

Click to expand...

Can you differentiate between Christ's first coming as a babe in your responses and His second coming in majesty and glory. Your responses are confusing at times.

When you say "The resurrection of the just and unjust" are you talking about His second coming?