When did the early fathers begin to go askew?

[Daniel Marsh]

The offering of the Eucharist is a participation in the eternal, ever present, sacrifice of Jesus. We enter in to his sacrifice.

I like to see more proof of this from Scripture and the Fathers, please.

 

[Thursday]

I like to see more proof of this from Scripture and the Fathers, please.

Here are a few:

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes. - St. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 107 AD

The Didache:
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).


Cyprian:

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Most of scripture was written by Jews, for Jews and about Jews. The Jews to whom it was addressed understood it in the context of Jewish history and their literary traditions like haggadic midrash. They knew that much of it was not to be understood literally but rather allegorically. However, within a century of the death of Jesus the early Christian church had already ceased to be a movement within Judaism and had become Gentile and largely Greek speaking. In this transition Christians lost the ability to read scripture "with Jewish eyes". They began to read scripture as literal --- a great mistake. Some call this the "Gentile Heresy". It continues thus to this present day throughout Christianity in all but a few circles.

Really, you are taking John Shelby Spong seriously. As one of Jewish background I don't take him seriously.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Catholic Church fought against and defeated gnostic heresies.

Here's evidence from Ignatius writing in about 105 AD. Ignatius was a disciple of John and he is addressing the errors of the gnostics here:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

Well said,

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here are a few:

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes. - St. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 107 AD

The Didache:
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).


Cyprian:

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).

Thank You,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Because by the eighth century the Roman Catholic church became too political. Because they seemed to lose spiritual practice of healings, love feasts, prophecy and tongues.

There was no longer evidence of the Holy Spirit in their works. So young ones had to learn that the eucharist was blessed and that the Holy Spirit moves people into good works. There were no longer signs and wonders, secret thoughts revealed.

As time went by, the laying on of hands in apostolic succession became a ritual without impartation. The Fathers had true teaching and less and less gifting. They made elaborate allegories of Bible passages. The Russian church, the Roman church and the Greek church all discerned a different seven names of the seven archangels.

The teacher who advocated pre-conception existence was defeated in debate rather than proven wrong. The love in the fathers and monks seemed to become cool. And anathematization became a tool. And this tool was taken to the point of pope killing heretic, brother killing brother.

The true believers were so persecuted that the succession was strained.

Before making statements like that you may want to read
A dictionary of miracles, imitative, realistic, and dogmatic

by Brewer, Ebenezer Cobham, 1810-1897

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here are a few:

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes. - St. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 107 AD

The Didache:
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).


Cyprian:

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).

Thank You,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[Soyeong]

Really, you are taking John Shelby Spong seriously. As one of Jewish background I don't take him seriously.

I'm amazed that anyone takes him seriously regardless of their background.

 

[JackRT]

I'm amazed that anyone takes him seriously regardless of their background.

As a Christian who takes the bible seriously but not literally, I regard John Spong as a prophetic voice in the world today. But prophets are seldom recognized or appreciated.

 

[Soyeong]

As a Christian who takes the bible seriously but not literally, I regard John Spong as a prophetic voice in the world today. But prophets are seldom recognized or appreciated.

From what I've read of him, it was complete garbage. He denies so much of the Bible that I have no idea why he still considers himself to be a Christian. Sadly, he has led many Christians astray.

 

[JackRT]

Sadly, Christians have been condemning each other for as long as there have been Christians.

 

[Soyeong]

What are your primary sources for this?

That was when Emperor Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome and has to do with the reason why Paul wrote his letter, which they either did not understand or take to heart.

 

[ScottA]

Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
I know the apostolic succession is heavily important, John the apostle's disciple Polycarp for example, a great passing on of the baton. If Polycarp went wrong, John failed as a father. Paul and Peter and all the apostles made converts and had inner circles. But over time, decade after decade, when did they lose speed?

By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?

By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.

I think the concept of an anthropomorphic God was rubbished not counter explained, true? And pre-conception existence? I am interested in others' views?

In a word, the early fathers began to err: "quickly."

• Revelation 2:5
  
• Revelation 2:16
  
• Revelation 3:11
  
• Revelation 22:7
  
• Revelation 22:12
  
• Revelation 22:20

 

[Soyeong]

Sadly, Christians have been condemning each other for as long as there have been Christians.

Two people can have differences of opinion about how to understand the Bible, but like it or not, there comes a point where there are so many difference that is no longer accurate to say that they are following the same religion. Spong denies so much that is foundational to Christianity that I think it is safe to say that he has reached that point and has deceived his followers.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true?

I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,
as Paul warned.

 

[OzSpen]

I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,
as Paul warned.

jeff,

This was Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28-30 (NIV):

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

From that time and throughout church history (not just with the early church fathers) there has been a constant battle with false doctrine: Marcionism, Gnosticism, Nestorianism, Modalism (Sabellian anti-Trinitarianism), Arianism, etc. Irenaeus's Against Heresies (late second century) was a detailed refutation of Gnosticism.

Just like today, there is a constant battle with error over truth, orthodoxy over heresy. That's why Paul exhorted the Berean Jews that they were to check out his theology as a preacher in Acts 17:11 (ESV), 'Now these Jews [in Berea] were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so'.

I know that until Jesus comes again, we will have to continue to watch for false teachers and false prophets (see 1 John 4:1-3) and discern the truth from error.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

As a Christian who takes the bible seriously but not literally, I regard John Spong as a prophetic voice in the world today. But prophets are seldom recognized or appreciated.

JackRT,

Are you serious?

Supporting the theology of a John Shelby Spong is like promoting a Bishop Kevorkian who is destined to kill off Christianity - sooner than later.

One of the most damning pieces of evidence against Spong’s views are that the facts do not stack up concerning the demise of supernatural Christianity. What’s the truth about the death of theism?

Wherever theological liberalism has taken hold, church numbers have crashed. Based on The Episcopal Church Annual (USA), membership of that predominantly theological liberal denomination, fell from a high of 3.6 million baptised Episcopalians in 1965, to 2.3 million in 1997– a loss of fully one-third of its membership.[1] The average Sunday attendance in the year 1998 was 843,213.[2] Two years later (the year 2000), it had further declined to 839,760.[3] “Mainline [church] membership is down (by nearly 6 million members) since 1965” in the USA.[4]

It is no wonder that the Newark Diocese of the Episcopal Church is talking about the need for church growth.[5]

Diocese decline under Spong

What was the church decline when Spong was bishop of Newark NJ for the Episcopalian Church?

The Episcopalians of Spong’s diocese voted with their feet while he was bishop. One report said that

“Spong [had] been the Episcopal Bishop of Newark [New Jersey] since 1976. He has presided over one of the most rapid witherings of any diocese in the Episcopal Church [USA]. The most charitable assessment shows that Newark’s parish membership rolls have evaporated by more than 42 percent. Less charitable accounts put the rate at over 50 percent.”[6]​

What are some dimensions of Spong's theology?

Spong’s theology offers the Churches of Christ (Australia), which brought him to Australia, and any person or denomination the following views: [7]

• Re-envisioning our concepts of God:
• God is “a presence at the heart of life, available to everyone and not as the special possession of a religious institution”;
• God is not an ancient deity who is “distant, apart and above the lives of a sinful humanity”;
• God is not “the kind of supernatural being who engages in instant gratification, magical wizardry and capricious favouritism”;
• God is “to be seen and experienced as intimately present in all creation” [Note: This sounds more like monism/Hinduism, than Christianity, to me!];
• God’s identity “is revealed when barriers are broken and community is formed”;
• God is not “a record keeping deity before whom I will appear at the day of judgment to have my eternal destination announced. . . My heart will never worship what my mind has rejected.”
• Spong has “his doubts about the process of resurrection [of Jesus],” according to Kitchen. Doubts? Hardly! [taken from my article,John Shelby Spong and the Churches of Christ (Victoria, Australia).]

And you dare to call his ministry 'a prophetic voice'. Sure sounds more like unprophetic doom to me or a heretical take on Christianity.

The Episcopal Church USA decline continues. See: 'Episcopal Church in Decline? Denomination Loses Nearly 50K Members, Closes 69 Parishes" (The Christian Post, October 13, 2015).

Oz

Notes

1. These figures of decline are based on Louie Crew, “Charting the Episcopal Church. Retrieved on November 4, 2001, from http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/chartecusa.html, p. 9 (A4 size, printed).

2. Rev. Dr. Leslie P. Fairfield, “Modernist Decline and Biblical Renewal: The Episcopal Church from 1870-2000,” American Anglican Council website, posted January 24, 2001. Retrieved on October 15, 2001, from http://www.americananglican.org/Issues/Issues.dfm?ID-91. On 6 May 2007, it was available from: http://www.strategicnetwork.org/index.php?loc=kb&view=v&id=3486&fto=1081&

3. Louie Crew, “Growth and Decline in ECUSA Attendance, 1991-2000.” Retrieved on 6 May 2007, from:http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/growthdecline90-00.html. The Episcopalian Church USA has shown “30 years of membership decline and over a million members lost” [The Institute on Religion and Democracy, “Episcopal Action.” Retrieved on 6 May 2007 from: http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=308889. See also, “Charting the Episcopal Church,” Louie Crew. Retrieved on June 6, 2004, from http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/chartecusa.html.

4. Robert Wuthnow, “Still Toeing the Mainline,” retrieved on November 4, 2001, from http://www.beliefnet.com/story/31/story_3171_1.html. This article states that, “More than 20 million Americans still hold membership in mainline churches. The largest mainline denominations are the United Methodist Church, with 8.7 million members; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, with 5.2 million members; the Presbyterian Church (USA), with 2.6 million members; the Episcopal Church, with 2.5 million members; and the American Baptist Churches USA and the United Church of Christ, each with 1.5 million members.”

5. The 2003 Diocesan Conference on Church Growth, October 24-25, 2003 – Xavier Center, Convent Station, NJ, retrieved from: http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/churchgrowth/ [26th December 2003]

6. “Rescuing Christianity from Bishop Kevorkian,” D. Marty Lasley, review of John Shelby Spong’s, Why Christianity Must Change or Die, for Anglican Voice, posted June 2 1999. Retrieved on 6 May 2007 from: http://listserv.episcopalian.org/wa.exe?A2=ind9906&L=virtuosity&H=1&P=272 (this link was no longer available in Oct 2013, but it is available at: http://listserv.virtueonline.org/pipermail/virtueonline_listserv.virtueonline.org/1999-June/000415.html (Accessed 15 October 2013).

7. These are based on Merrill Kitchen, “The Future Church and Bishop John Shelby Spong,” The Australian Christian, 28 November 2001, p. 17. This article appeared in the “Theology Matters” feature of the magazine. The Australian Christian is an official Churches of Christ magazine in Australia.

[Many of the links in these end notes no longer work because they are dated. However, when the article was written, the citations were accurate.]

 

[Thursday]

In a word, the early fathers began to err: "quickly."

• Revelation 2:5
  
• Revelation 2:16
  
• Revelation 3:11
  
• Revelation 22:7
  
• Revelation 22:12
  
• Revelation 22:20

Can you provide an example? Why post irrelevant verses?

 

[Thursday]

I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,
as Paul warned.

Paul didn't write that.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, that the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and that he would be with us until the end of the world.