When did the Church which is Christs Body begin?

[timothyu]

For the rest of us gentiles in the Body of Christ.

Oh ok, but we Gentiles were latecomers also.

 

[Antonio39]

Don't know why you ask that; I don't see the relevance. Can you explain, just so I know we are on the same page?

 

[Antonio39]

So let's be clear what you believe in about the term "Body of Christ".

What exactly does Body of Christ means to you?

At the salvation of Paul, I think we might be misunderstanding each other do to me not being clear in my writting

 

[Guojing]

At the salvation of Paul, I think we might be misunderstanding each other do to me not being clear in my writting

Because the Body of Christ may not mean the same thing to the different people.

To me, the Body of Christ meant there is no wall of separation between Jews and gentiles, both come to Christ equally (Ephesians 3:6)

You believed that Paul "was saved under the doctrine of the prophetic program".

The problem with that is that, under the prophetic program, Israel is the only way that Gentiles can be saved by (John 4:22). Gentiles must join the nation of Israel to be saved, so that is not the same definition of the Body of Christ that I have.

 

[Marilyn C]

There are mainly three positions in dispensationalism that believe the church began in Acts 2, 9-13, or 28 which is yours, and why?

This will prepare us for a future study.

Hi Antonio,

I believe that God had the Body of Christ planned before time. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10, & 2: 11). Then when Christ ascended to the Father and He made Christ Head of the Body, (Eph. 1: 22 & 23) then the Lord sent His Holy Spirit to build and mature it. (Acts 2: 4, Eph. 4: 16).

The Apostle Paul came later however he was given the revelation of the Body, (Eph. 3: 3 - 5). Other ascension ministries were in the Body before Paul, (Rom. 16: 7).

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul wrote that 1 Timothy 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

So he is not saying there that he was saved "just as the Jewish believers at Pentecost".

He is saying he is the first member of the Body of Christ, that his salvation is a pattern for the rest of us.

How else would you understand this verse?

Hi Guojing,

Rom. 16: 7. `Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.`

Note they are APOSTLES who were of the ascended Lord. These apostles were given by the Head after He ascended for the `equipping pf the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 12)

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guojing,

Rom. 16: 7. `Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.`

Note they are APOSTLES who were of the ascended Lord. These apostles were given by the Head after He ascended for the `equipping pf the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 12)

Yes, you can be in Christ without being in the Body of Christ.

John 15:4-8
Romans 16:7

But those of us in the Body of Christ are automatically in Christ.

 

[Antonio39]

Because the Body of Christ may not mean the same thing to the different people.

To me, the Body of Christ meant there is no wall of separation between Jews and gentiles, both come to Christ equally (Ephesians 3:6)

You believed that Paul "was saved under the doctrine of the prophetic program".

The problem with that is that, under the prophetic program, Israel is the only way that Gentiles can be saved by (John 4:22). Gentiles must join the nation of Israel to be saved, so that is not the same definition of the Body of Christ that I have.

During the acts period gentiles were grafted into Israel's national inherence, hence the olive tree (Jer.11:16), the heavenly Jerusalem, and the partaking of the spiritual blessings of Israel's new covenant, which concerns Israel's national forgiveness (Jer.31:31-40). It was prophesied that during the national judgment of lo-Ammi that God would form the new government of the nation from among the gentiles to drive the unbelieving Jews to jealously before the great deception of the man sin was to come upon the seen. And we must ask when that middle wall was knocked down? And not only that but, when was the call for the corporate new Man; Also note that during the acts period the sacrificial system was still in effect, where all of the believing Jews along with the apostles where still practicing which is also in line with the prophetic program (Acts.21:18-26; Zech.:14:16-21)

 

[Ceallaigh]

How about when Jesus appointed His Twelve Apostles?

 

[Antonio39]

How about when Jesus appointed His Twelve Apostles?

Thats goanna be the next thing I post, the first was Israels position of preeminence in Gods kingdom. Make sure you read well so you will be in line with the next post.

 

[timothyu]

The church is built upon truth from the Father. That truth has always existed, but the Christian aspect of it still started when Jesus defined what church was and said after asking the apostles who they thought He was, that it was the Father's truth that would be the foundation of the church

 

[Dan Perez]

Paul wrote that 1 Timothy 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

So he is not saying there that he was saved "just as the Jewish believers at Pentecost".

He is saying he is the first member of the Body of Christ, that his salvation is a pattern for the rest of us.

How else would you understand this verse?

One of many good verses !

dan p

 

[Antonio39]

When did the church which is Christ’s body begin? Study series.

Lesson#1 Israel’s position of preeminence in Gods Kingdom over the rest of the Nations.

The first thing I would like to establish among the different positions held concerning the creation of the body of Christ, is Israel’s place in scripture; and what exactly is the inheritance that has been allotted to Israel, and what was the hope of the people of the nation when we open the N.T, in fulfillment of their covenanted promises, for we know that ever jot and title of Gods word will come to fulfillment!

In the call of Abram, God promised to make of him a great nation, and bless him, and make his name great, and he shall be a blessing. God would bless those who bless him (Abram) and curse those who curse him, and in Abram all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Gen.12:1-3).

In this foundational scripture there are many layers of meaning that are progressively revealed through God’s word, especially by our Apostle Paul, to which we will save for a later study as we progress.

While all blessing is centered in Christ, the seed of Abraham, I would like to look at the specifics of the greatness mentioned here, and the blessing that will be received by the nations for blessing Israel, along with the cures that will be received for cursing Israel, we find this to be the meaning as we follow this theme. The scriptures below show the position of preeminence Israel has in God’s kingdom over the rest of the nations of the earth.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;(Gen.22:17-18)

Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother’s sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, And blessed be those who bless you!” (Gen.26:29)

Judah, your brothers shall praise you. Your hand shall be on the necks of your enemies; your father’s sons shall bow down to you. Judah is a young lion—my son, you return from the prey. Like a lion he crouches and lies down; like a lioness, who dares to rouse him? The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and the allegiance of the nations is his. (Gen.49:8-10)

Here we have the blessing of the firstborn right which concerns abundant life and a position of preeminence; this spiritual blessing is passed down through the patriarch and would find its fulfillment in Gods Kingdom, the nation of Israel has the first born right over all the nations of the earth, when Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God, He will rule through the nation, for Israel is heir of Gods Kingdom over the nations (). When Christ returns, Israel will shine with glory of God, and all nations shall go to Israel, who will be a kingdom of priests that will bring the truth of God to a lost would, and minister between God and the nations. The nations shall tithe to Israel with the gift offerings of riches, blessing Israel and bowing down in obeisance.

Strangers will stand and feed your flocks, and foreigners will be your plowmen and vinedressers.6But you will be called the priests of the LORD; they will speak of you as ministers of our God; you will feed on the wealth of nations, and you will boast in their riches.7Instead of shame, My people will have a double portion, and instead of humiliation, they will rejoice in their share; and so they will inherit a double portion in their land, and everlasting joy will be theirs.8For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity; in My faithfulness I will give them their recompense and make an everlasting covenant with them.9Their descendants will be known among the nations, and their offspring among the peoples. All who see them will acknowledge they are a people the LORD has blessed.10I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, my soul will exult in my God; for He has clothed me with garments of salvation and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom wears a priestly headdress, as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.11For as the earth brings forth its growth, and as a garden enables seed to spring up, so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring up before all the nations.



1 “Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.2 See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you.3 Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn.4 “Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip.5 Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy; the wealth on the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come 6 Herds of camels will cover your land, young camels of Midian and Ephah. And all from Sheba will come, bearing gold and incense and proclaiming the praise of the LORD.7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth will serve you; they will be accepted as offerings on my altar, and I will adorn my glorious temple.8 “Who are these that fly along like clouds, like doves to their nests?9 Surely the islands look to me; in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, bringing your children from afar, with their silver and gold, to the honor of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor.10 “Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you. Though in anger I struck you, in favor I will show you compassion.11 Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations— their kings led in triumphal procession.12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you, the juniper, the fir and the cypress together, to adorn my sanctuary; and I will glorify the place for my feet.14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

22This is what the Lord GOD says: “Behold, I will lift My hand to the nations, and raise My banner to the peoples. They will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.23Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow to you face down and lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who hope in Me will never be put to shame.”

These scriptures will find their full consummation in Israels kingdom: note the greatness of the nation, in being a great multitude, as well as the blessed preeminent firstborn position, all nations will pour unto Israel paying homage to the nation, with gifts of tribute knowing that the God of Israel, is the God of gods and Lod of Lords, and Israel His blessed people, all the nations of the earth that submit to Gods rule through His ruling Nation, will be blessed with world peace, agricultural blessing, health, along with the longevity of life (Isa.2:1-4; Zech.14:16-21).

When we open the pages of the New Testament, we find the nation of Israel still under gentile oppression for their violation of the mosaic covenant, the times of the gentiles where still under way they nation was looking for their full national restoration in fulfillment of Daniels 70-week prophecy (Lk.2:1-2; Dan. 9:1-27)).The faithful members of the nation were waiting for the Coming messiah that would redeem the nation and restore the Kingdom to Israel, waiting for the coming of the crushing stone, that would crush the gentile oppressive beast kingdoms of this earth, and would establish the kingdom of heaven on earth, to which Israel would rule (Lk.1:72-80;2:30-32,36-38; 24:21; Acts.1:6; Dan.2:36-45;7:27)

Question, after reading above, we see a difference between Israel and the nations; how do we reconcile this with scriptures that say there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, and we are one in Christ? Do scriptures like this cancel out the Old Testament promises of Israel's preeminent position over the nations? Or did the church of the New Testament replace these Old Testament promises to Israel, if so then who will be ruled over?
Or does God call out different companies, at different times, that have different promises, and instructions, that must be followed? As work men that need not to be ashamed, rightly diving the word of truth we shall search the scriptures diligently finding our call and instruction. Amen!

 

[Dan Perez]

The church is built upon the truth from God not man.

Matthew 16: 13-18

To Antonia 39 , There are 2 verses that come to mind and the first one is Gen 1:1 that In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth .

#1 Noticed the He created the HEAVENS FIRST ., which means the B O C .

#2 Then He created the EARTH .

#3 And then Eph 1:6 says we the B O C were CHOSEN BEFORE /PRO the foundation of the world .

#4 Israel was CHOSEN FROM / APO the the foundation of the world , Matt 13:35

SO we see that the B O C was chosen before Christ made the Heavens .

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

This is how I have understood how the keys of the kingdom were [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to St Peter

In two key passages of the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus leaves his Church with two great gifts. The first (Matthew 16:19) is addressed to St. Peter:


The second (Matthew 18:1) is addressed to his disciples:



I think it's pretty straightforward. St Peter was passed the keys of the church and became the first Pope.

I checked Matt 16:19 I will give unto thee the KEYS of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN and what soever thou shalt BIND ON EARTH shall be Bound on Earth and whatsoever thou shalt LOOSE on EARTH , SHALL be LOOSED in HEAVEN .

What do see and what does means to BIND and to LOOSE , so help me here ?

dan p

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, you can be in Christ without being in the Body of Christ.

John 15:4-8
Romans 16:7

But those of us in the Body of Christ are automatically in Christ.

Hi Guoging,

Yes I agree you can be in Christ without being in the Body, like the 12 Apostles of the Lamb who have a different inheritance than those in the Body of Christ.

However, I was pointing out that Paul was NOT the first in the Body of Christ for there were other ascension ministries before Paul. (Rom. 16: 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

This is how I have understood how the keys of the kingdom were [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to St Peter

In two key passages of the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus leaves his Church with two great gifts. The first (Matthew 16:19) is addressed to St. Peter:


The second (Matthew 18:1) is addressed to his disciples:



I think it's pretty straightforward. St Peter was passed the keys of the church and became the first Pope.

Hi rturner,

Actually the 12 disciples/Apostles (pre-cross) were for ISRAEL, and they will be ruling over the 12 tribes in the NHNE. (Matt. 19: 28) So, the `keys of heaven, ` is the authority of Christ`s rule through Israel on the earth.

The Body of Christ was only revealed later and it is the revelation of Christ that is the foundation of the Body. (1 Cor. 3: 11)

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guoging,

Yes I agree you can be in Christ without being in the Body, like the 12 Apostles of the Lamb who have a different inheritance than those in the Body of Christ.

However, I was pointing out that Paul was NOT the first in the Body of Christ for there were other ascension ministries before Paul. (Rom. 16: 7)

So my point is that you are incorrect.

Those mentioned in Romans 16:7 were in Christ before him.

But Paul did not say they are in the Body of Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

So my point is that you are incorrect.

Those mentioned in Romans 16:7 were in Christ before him.

But Paul did not say they are in the Body of Christ.

HI Guojing,

You have missed my point - ascension ministries. Andronicus and Junia were apostles to the Body of Christ - ascension ministries, whom we are told were before Paul. (Rom. 16: 7)

 

[Guojing]

HI Guojing,

You have missed my point - ascension ministries. Andronicus and Junia were apostles to the Body of Christ - ascension ministries, whom we are told were before Paul. (Rom. 16: 7)

That is not what Romans 16:7 actually states literally.

Those 2 are in Christ, just like Peter and the other 11 apostles post Acts.

But Peter and the 11 are not in the Body of Christ. If you can accept that, that means you can also accept that Andronicus and Junia need not be in the Body of Christ.