When did Mary's hymen break?

[AlexDTX]

I always assumed that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary for the conception of Christ that it was a supernatural implantation that did not break the hymen. Then I realized that if it was not broken at conception, that meant Jesus had to break it with his head at his birth. Apart from the angels and shepherds coming to see the baby born, there is no indication in Scripture that his birth was out of the ordinary.

Years ago I read a marvelous book called, Why the Hymen? by Sheila Cooley. In that book she explains that the breaking of the hymen was the blood covenant of a marriage. Cloths were laid under the bride on her honeymoon night to catch the blood to prove that she was a virgin. So the consummation of marriage was traditionally a blood covenant, assuming the bride was a virgin.

So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?

I have no answer for this, so I am asking for everyone's thoughts on the topic. Thank you for your feedback.

Post Script.
It is apparent that people misunderstand my question. I am not asking what constitutes virginity in a woman, I asked the question if the hymen were broken by the head of Jesus did that constitute some kind of covenant with Mary?

I referred to Sheila Cooley's book, but it is clear that readers need more information. She draws upon the story of the covenant God makes with Abraham in Genesis 15:9 through :17 where Abraham cuts a heifer in half and the lamp of God passes through it. This is a blood covenant since the heifer had to be slaughtered. From this passage she draws the conclusion that blood spilled with the passing through the flesh is the covenant act. Therefore when a man marries a virgin and consummates the marriage on the honeymoon, the hymen breaks and spills blood while the act of intercourse is the passing of the flesh through the flesh.

If Mary's hymen was intact, and I believe it was since that is the medical definition of virginity, then it had to break when Jesus was born, hence my question.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I always assumed that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary for the conception of Christ that it was a supernatural implantation that did not break the hymen. Then I realized that if it was not broken at conception, that meant Jesus had to break it with his head at his birth. Apart from the angels and shepherds coming to see the baby born, there is no indication in Scripture that his birth was out of the ordinary.

Years ago I read a marvelous book called, Why the Hymen? by Sheila Cooley. In that book she explains that the breaking of the hymen was the blood covenant of a marriage. Cloths were laid under the bride on her honeymoon night to catch the blood to prove that she was a virgin. So the consummation of marriage was traditionally a blood covenant, assuming the bride was a virgin.

So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?

I have no answer for this, so I am asking for everyone's thoughts on the topic. Thank you for your feedback.

I don't know about your question, but the thought came to me that seeing as her hymen was obviously broken at birth, she wasn't a perpetual virgin as is in RCC doctrine.

 

[Chesterton]

An intact hymen is not the definition of virginity.

 

[1stcenturylady]

An intact hymen is not the definition of virginity.

It was to the Jews.

 

[Chesterton]

I don't speak for Jews.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't speak for Jews.

The Jews received the law, not Orthodox.

 

[Saucy]

Depends on when she had sex with Joseph. The bible says that the marriage bed is pure, so there's no reason why they couldn't have had sex. It was the church who, many years later, decided to create this doctrine out of thin air that she was perpetually a virgin, with no evidence for it whatsoever. It's obvious from scripture she had other children.

 

[Chesterton]

The Jews received the law, not Orthodox.

I don't think Christians received law, we received grace.

 

[Hank77]

Years ago I read a marvelous book called, Why the Hymen? by Sheila Cooley. In that book she explains that the breaking of the hymen was the blood covenant of a marriage. Cloths were laid under the bride on her honeymoon night to catch the blood to prove that she was a virgin. So the consummation of marriage was traditionally a blood covenant, assuming the bride was a virgin.

imho,
Proving virginity was mainly about proving that the bride wasn't pregnant by another man, and had a lot to do with inheritance if the first born was a son or even a daughter if there were no sons.
In Israel, the land was attached not only to a family but to a tribe. Remember when Moses said that the daughters could inherit their father's land but that they must marry a man within their tribe. If they didn't they had to give up the land to someone in the tribe that land was attached to.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't think Christians received law, we received grace.

Grace is the power of God to keep God's morals laws, not get away with breaking them as some believe. That was what the false doctrine was the apostles were constantly fighting. We are given the Holy Spirit to give us that power.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I particularly like this paraphrase in The Living Bible

31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

 

[Hank77]

It was to the Jews.

imo,
Virginity always meant exactly what Jewish Mary herself said it meant.

Luk 1:34 And Mary said unto the messenger, `How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?'

 

[1stcenturylady]

imo,
Virginity always meant exactly what Jewish Mary herself said it meant.

Luk 1:34 And Mary said unto the messenger, `How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?'

Normally, that would be how the hymen would have been broken. Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, but to wait until the child was born to be intimate.

Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

 

[Albion]

I always assumed that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary for the conception of Christ that it was a supernatural implantation that did not break the hymen. Then I realized that if it was not broken at conception, that meant Jesus had to break it with his head at his birth. Apart from the angels and shepherds coming to see the baby born, there is no indication in Scripture that his birth was out of the ordinary.

On the other hand, a church that cites as proof early Christian leaders who speculated that Jesus was miraculously born through Mary's side (!) surely aren't going to be phased by this little problem.

 

[Hank77]

Normally, that would be how the hymen would have been broken. Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, but to wait until the child was born to be intimate.

And that defines virginity by what? The hymen being stretched or not having a sexual relationship with a man?
I believe a virgin is a girl/woman who has not had sexual relations with a man, just as Mary said, and is still medically true to this day.

 

[AlexDTX]

I don't know about your question, but the thought came to me that seeing as her hymen was obviously broken at birth, she wasn't a perpetual virgin as is in RCC doctrine.

Agreed, although the RCC was not my thought. The very statement that Jesus had brothers and sisters shows that.

 

[AlexDTX]

An intact hymen is not the definition of virginity.

So what is?

 

[Chesterton]

Never having had sexual intercourse with a man.

 

[AlexDTX]

Depends on when she had sex with Joseph. The bible says that the marriage bed is pure, so there's no reason why they couldn't have had sex. It was the church who, many years later, decided to create this doctrine out of thin air that she was perpetually a virgin, with no evidence for it whatsoever. It's obvious from scripture she had other children.

You are not responding to the OP. The hymen would have been broken by the head of Jesus at birth.

 

[AlexDTX]

imho,
Proving virginity was mainly about proving that the bride wasn't pregnant by another man, and had a lot to do with inheritance if the first born was a son or even a daughter if there were no sons.
In Israel, the land was attached not only to a family but to a tribe. Remember when Moses said that the daughters could inherit their father's land but that they must marry a man within their tribe. If they didn't they had to give up the land to someone in the tribe that land was attached to.

Interesting point of view, Hank. However, I don't that is the answer.

 

[AlexDTX]

Normally, that would be how the hymen would have been broken. Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, but to wait until the child was born to be intimate.

Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Thank you for staying on track with the OP.