When did Anglicanism go astray?

[Paidiske]

Bishop John A.T. Robinson or Bishop John Shelby Spong represent the heirs of this approach, but it is by no means the dominant one in Anglicanism.

Richard Holloway, too, although I find him more sophisticated than Spong.

But no, not at all dominant. I remember when I first read Spong, my vicar at the time telling me, "Don't read him, he's a heretic!"

 

[Albion]

MUCH????? nah.

I think he was meaning to say that many Episcopal clergy these days have Old Catholic lines of Apostolic Succession as well as the usual Anglican lines of Apostolic Succession in their lineage.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Richard Holloway, too, although I find him more sophisticated than Spong.

But no, not at all dominant. I remember when I first read Spong, my vicar at the time telling me, "Don't read him, he's a heretic!"

I know who Spong's lineage traces back to, if that would help.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing to note is that not every African Anglican has enmity towards the Episcopal Church. Many do not. The Rev. Isaac Ihiasota, an Anglican clergyman from Nigeria and now an Episcopalian priest, describes profound cultural differences between Europe and North America and Africa that does challenge us to respect one another in our different ways of expressing the Christian faith.

One of the most liberal Episcopalian churches here in Central Florida does work with Anglican sister-churches in Africa. The perceived enmity between Africa and the US is mostly the result of demagogues irresponsibly using the situation for their purposes.

 

[FireDragon76]

Another thing I could add... the Episcopal Church is far more dynamic that simply being a "liberal Protestant church". Some of the more prominent conservative evangelical Christians like Eric Metaxas are found in the Episcopal Church (and in New York City of all places). The liturgies used are often the most conservative and traditional compared to other mainline denominations, and most actual parishes in the church are conservative or moderate, with many having relatively conservative views on many social issues. But it's not a conservativism usually expressed like you would find in a Baptist church, and never really has been.

 

[Albion]

One thing to note is that not every African Anglican has enmity towards the Episcopal Church. Many do not. The Rev. Isaac Ihiasota, an Anglican clergyman from Nigeria and now an Episcopalian priest, describes profound cultural differences between Europe and North America and Africa that does challenge us to respect one another in our different ways of expressing the Christian faith.

One of the most liberal Episcopalian churches here in Central Florida does work with Anglican sister-churches in Africa. The perceived enmity between Africa and the US is mostly the result of demagogues irresponsibly using the situation for their purposes.

It's true that The Episcopal Church is working hard to undercut the majority of Anglican provinces in Africa by bribing and flattering the minority provinces in Africa as well as by attempting to induce dissenting clergy within the conservative provinces to defy their own bishops. When I read something like "demagogues irresponsibly using the situation for their purposes" I think that TEC must be at the top of the list.

 

[Albion]

I know who Spong's lineage traces back to, if that would help.

You may have something in mind that I'm not picking up on, but there's nothing wrong with Bp. Spong's lineage. It's totally a matter of his beliefs.

 

[Paidiske]

I suspect that Brian is suggesting that Spong's inspiration is... ah... other than divine.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's true that The Episcopal Church is working hard to undercut the majority of Anglican provinces in Africa by bribing and flattering the minority provinces as well as attempting to induce dissenting clergy within the Conservative provinces to defy their own bishops.

The people I know at this particular parish, St. Richard's, have no agendas like that, other than sharing Jesus' love with everyone. I've attended services there several times but it's not easy for me to go there on most Sundays.

Africa, much like Russia, is being poisoned by the religious interference of controversialists from the US, typified in organizations like The Institute of Religion and Democracy, a right-wing think-tank that uses conservative Protestant religion for divisive political ends.

 

[Albion]

I suspect that Brian is suggesting that Spong's inspiration is... ah... other than divine.

But..."lineage?"

And his post came immediately after one that was completely concerned with lines of Apostolic Succession.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm thinking of John 8 and the question of whether some of the Jews had Abraham or the devil for their father, which Brian already referenced in post #57. That's a sort of lineage, isn't it?

 

[Albion]

The people I know at this particular parish, St. Richard's, have no agendas like that

They probably don't have any idea that they're part of a bigger TEC agenda and naturally think they're helping ordinary people in Africa--which, of course, they certainly are. There is a reason they're not directing their efforts at Papua New Guinea or some other impoverished part of the world, however.

 

[Albion]

I'm thinking of John 8 and the question of whether some of the Jews had Abraham or the devil for their father, which Brian already referenced in post #57. That's a sort of lineage, isn't it?

Certainly, but even after reconsidering the matter and rereading the posts, I'm still thinking he was referring to Apostolic Succession, even though I can't imagine how lineage would make Bp. Spong a heretic.

Of course, this is just a guess.

OR...what if he was saying that there are some notoriously unorthodox bishops in that line and Bp. Spong is thought to be their pupil, or something like that?

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sure Australian Anglicans minister to people in that part of the world (New Guinea and Melanesia) because they have much closer ties and it is easier for them to do so. Also, there is a broad international consensus that Africa is an area most in need of human development since it has lagged behind most other continents in improving living conditions.

A good documentary, BTW, on the exploding population of Africa due to human development, and the possibility of ending widespread poverty there within two decades. Even just having something like a bicycle is a significant means for development for many African families:

 

[Albion]

I really doesn't change anything. Africans are in need, and I suppose that it could be argued that they need help more than American Indians or Palestinians do...and from the USA in particular.

There still is an agenda, even if most of the people in this parish are doing what they're doing simply because they think it's right and proper of Christians to help.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not aware of much ministry to Papua New Guinea, but I think some missionary organisations send people there.

As far as Africa goes; I'm aware of some of the problems (largely from colleagues who are refugees from Sudan), and I'm also aware that Australians go to minister in Africa as CMS missionaries. Not, as far as I'm aware, with any particular ecclesio-political agenda, but the CMS relationship does go back a very long way (before current tensions within the communion). The need is very great.

I myself considered offering for service in the horn of Africa, but since they don't ordain women, I'm looking elsewhere.

 

[Albion]

None of this means that TEC doesn't have the agenda that the African Provinces of the Anglican Communion have protested about and in fairly bitter terms.

 

[Paidiske]

No, it doesn't, but I'd want to hear more than just statements from the African bishops before I'd believe any specific claims either. (And I note that the African bishops have been doing just the same sort of thing in America - Archbishop Akinola's consecration of Martyn Minns didn't help anything!)

Basically, the whole thing's a mess, and politicking on both sides is ugly.

 

[Albion]

Basically, the whole thing's a mess, and politicking on both sides is ugly.

I can agree with that.

Now...let's look again at the post which provoked my response--

The perceived enmity between Africa and the US is mostly the result of demagogues irresponsibly using the situation for their purposes.

and then

religious interference of controversialists from the US, typified in organizations like The Institute of Religion and Democracy, a right-wing think-tank that uses conservative Protestant religion for divisive political ends.

Not exactly in the same vein as your observation quoted here, is it?

 

[Paidiske]

Erm... they seem to me to be saying much the same thing, actually. Demagogues using the situation irresponsibly is much the same sort of thing as what I meant by ugly politicking.

The way I see it is that there is a lack of genuine good will on both sides, and a willingness to work against rather than with one another. Perhaps the African bishops, given their much greater internal issues, have more excuse; but neither are behaving well or charitably.

Now of course I'm not really close to it on either side. Pretty much all of my knowledge is second hand. But I'm not seeing much that inspires me from where I'm sitting.