When did “consciousness” enter the Universe?

[Guy Threepwood]

Such as what? DNA? we know how DNA information accumulates. Evolution is a creative process.

No, random corruption of data is not a truly creative process-

You can shoot the Mona Lisa with paintballs and claim to have created new art, but you see the problem-
you are destroying more representational information than you are creating.

We see this in life also, birds losing flight, fish losing sight, very difficult to identify the opposite happening to any significant degree.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, random corruption of data is not a truly creative process

Evolution is not random.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Evolution is not random.

From a link someone posted earlier

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_18

Mutations

Mutation is a change in DNA, the hereditary material of life. An organism's DNA affects how it looks, how it behaves, and its physiology — all aspects of its life. So a change in an organism's DNA can cause changes in all aspects of its life.

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

 

[Bradskii]

From a link someone posted earlier

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_18

Mutations

Mutation is a change in DNA, the hereditary material of life. An organism's DNA affects how it looks, how it behaves, and its physiology — all aspects of its life. So a change in an organism's DNA can cause changes in all aspects of its life.

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

You are simply showing that you don't understand the difference between what evolution is and mutations are.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

You are simply showing that you don't understand the difference between what evolution is and mutations are.

Mutations are the proposed 'creative' mechanism of Darwinism.

 

[Bradskii]

Mutations are the proposed 'creative' mechanism of Darwinism.

Gonna double down? Or do some book learnin'...

 

[Astrid]

No, random corruption of data is not a truly creative process-

You can shoot the Mona Lisa with paintballs and claim to have created new art, but you see the problem-
you are destroying more representational information than you are creating.

We see this in life also, birds losing flight, fish losing sight, very difficult to identify the opposite happening to any significant degree.

So like whales are degenerate creatures that only lost genetic info.

 

[tas8831]

No, random corruption of data is not a truly creative process-

Analogies are not evidence.
A shame that you can only see nails, because all you have is that "DNA is exactly like computer code" hammer.
Pity you are immune from having your false beliefs corrected.

And thanks again for undermining a common creationist argument!

 

[tas8831]

So like whales are degenerate creatures that only lost genetic info.

He's a one-trick pony.

 

[Astrid]

Gonna double down? Or do some book learnin'...

Book learnim' is the kryptonite of creoism.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Gonna double down? Or do some book learnin'...

I have 'Origin of Species' right in from of me. Mutations, in the modern synthesis, are the source of the variation Darwin proposes to supply new biological form. And as above, mutations are proposed to be random.

 

[Astrid]

I have 'Origin of Species' right in from of me. Mutations, in the modern synthesis, are the source of the variation Darwin proposes to supply new biological form. And as above, mutations are proposed to be random.

Are you proposing that order cannot arise from any random process?

 

[Bradskii]

I have 'Origin of Species' right in from of me. Mutations, in the modern synthesis, are the source of the variation Darwin proposes to supply new biological form. And as above, mutations are proposed to be random.

So...doubling down it is. Got a page number where Chuck says the process is random? I've got a copy as well.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So...doubling down it is. Got a page number where Chuck says the process is random? I've got a copy as well.

Again as above, the modern understanding of Darwin's theory is that variation occurs through random mutation- that's hardly controversial!

 

[Astrid]

Again as above, the modern understanding of Darwin's theory is that variation occurs through random mutation- that's hardly controversial!

Going to ever clarify whether order can emerge from any random process?

 

[tas8831]

I have 'Origin of Species' right in from of me.

I have the bible right in front of me. Tell me the verse in which Jesus declares that DNA is exactly like computer code.

Mutations, in the modern synthesis, are the source of the variation Darwin proposes to supply new biological form. And as above, mutations are proposed to be random.

Random wrt fitness.

Surely a brain genius like you understands the basics?

As you are an expert in computer code and information, can you describe the information flow in this system - gain, loss, no net change? And when an adaptive benefit is produced, and the information in the system did not change or went down, what then?



A single p450 allele associated with insecticide resistance in Drosophila.
"...Transgenic analysis of Cyp6g1 shows that over-transcription of this gene alone is both necessary and sufficient for resistance. Resistance and up-regulation in Drosophila populations are associated with a single Cyp6g1 allele that has spread globally. This allele is characterized by the insertion of an Accord transposable element into the 5' end of the Cyp6g1 gene."

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Going to ever clarify whether order can emerge from any random process?

That's too vague a question, a 4 lettered word might appear randomly in your alphabet soup.
it's a matter of quality and quantity.
It's not entirely impossible for a chimp to accidentally type War and Peace, it's just not happening.

appealing to blind luck to create every new biological form is inadequate.

 

[Bradskii]

Again as above, the modern understanding of Darwin's theory is that variation occurs through random mutation- that's hardly controversial!

Tripling down! I see some sort of record approaching before the back down.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Tripling down! I see some sort of record approaching before the back down.

You would need to argue your assertion with the folks at Berkeley and see if they will back down, I'm certainly not!

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_18

Mutations

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

 

[Bradskii]

You would need to argue your assertion with the folks at Berkeley and see if they will back down, I'm certainly not!

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_18

Mutations

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

Four in a row...

I can only repeat: You are simply showing that you don't understand the difference between what evolution is and mutations are.

Surely you have to check before you hit 5.