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When did “consciousness” enter the Universe?

Akita Suggagaki

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"Answer".

Another trap of human language. The word invites equivocation between fact-accessible-to-human-inquiry.... and something like true-condition-of-reality, which are of course often not the same thing at all.
Perhaps it comes down to faith: is God the conscious source of it all or not?
 
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durangodawood

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Perhaps it comes down to faith: is God the conscious source of it all or not?
I dont think so. Shark mind is a good example. Even if God gave sharks a certain type of mind that lets them in fact feel X, humans cant verify what that feeling is.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I meant exactly what I wrote, straight up.
Life is persistent. It want's to happen. Nothing can stop it. If not here on Earth, than somewhere else in the cosmos.
Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean there's a 'life force'. The only relevant forces are electromagnetism and gravity, and gravity's probably optional. So electromagnetism is the only relevant force (above atomic level) that generates the complexity we see at human scales, including life.

Which is what we also have in a corpse. But when I look into my own grand-daughter's eyes and see the light of glee when she laughs, there's a lot more going on there than chemistry.
A corpse has lost the organization and integration of the energy processes of life. Emotions show what 3 billion years of evolution can do.

It sounds like he thinks that electrons have consciousness and intelligence of sorts. And agrees with the mystics that say the same thing, that electrons, being that the Universe is made of them, are a basic part of the force of Life that runs all through the Cosmos.
No, he was just waxing poetic about the fundamental chemistry of life; tongue in cheek. Biochemists can be whimsical!
 
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Vap841

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OK, I'll give you the bad analogy re the angels (I knew I shouldn't have included it). But I'm sticking with the question being nonsensical. The answer to the number of grains exists but it is literally impossible to determine. So even if it's a fact that there is an answer it makes no sense to ask the question. It's a nonsensical question.

It's the same with sharks. You can determine every single process involving every chemical change or electrical impulse or physical change in the sharks brain down to the quantum level. But that only, as I said further upstream, gives you the process itself. It will describe the shark's consciousness - which is that process. But You cannot go any further. You still need the observed and the observer (the guy sitting in your chair). They cannot be the same thing.

But the shark knows what it's like to be a shark. So there is a way to know. So there is an answer. But you cannot be the shark. So the question becomes nonsensical.
Our exchange is a tad bit odd because we are mostly agreeing with each other about the inaccessibility, however I don’t agree that the process is the same exact thing as the consciousness. The thing is that the worldview of Physicalism is very bold, it does not at all shy away from difficult questions such as the exact number of sand grains. Physicalism claims that a full exhaustive account of everything there is to know about in reality can be given by using the descriptive resources of physics. But more precisely the claim is that such an exhaustive explanation is possible with a future version of physics that is complete. So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description. To oppose this belief would land you into dualism or idealism (well except for an agnostic type position like mind/body pessimism that says the answer is beyond the capacity of the human mind to ever find a solution to the mind body problem, however that is to not even take a position)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don’t know how this isn’t the same thing as saying added complexity.
All it means is that you can make a brain more complex by interconnecting all its neurons at random. But such a maximally complex system won't do anything interesting. A system that that does something interesting must be less than maximally complex by incorporating some kind of functionality; in the brain, this means a modular & hierarchical functional architecture.

These different areas of the brain are responsible for different functions in an individual way, and then at a later stage everything is reassembled into a coherent whole. But all of these functional dependent regions could also exist for qualia zombies too, they too would require a ton of different sensory mechanisms in order to avoid running across a busy street 1 second too early or too late, or to chop a carrot without chopping off a fingertip, etc. But we don’t escape the privileged 1st person information problem, we can’t know via brain functions if a person who cut their finger instead of the carrot really feels the pain or if they are just going through the motions and acting like they are in pain. THAT their brain mechanisms matches what my brain mechanisms look like when I feel pain is an objective FACT, but whether or not the pain experience itself is being faked or is genuine in that person is unfortunately reduced to an inference. It’s this reduced quality of knowledge that is the explanatory gap when moving from the physiological data to the assurance that we don’t have a qualia zombie.
Well I don't agree that qualia zombies are metaphysically possible; being able to conceive of such a thing doesn't mean it is possible. My view is that a system that is indistinguishable in all ways and under all conditions from one that has qualia, necessarily has qualia too; IOW it cannot respond and report as if it has precisely the same qualia as its non-zombie identical duplicate if it doesn't experience (and think it experiences) those qualia.

Qualia are, by definition, experiential, you can't generate identical qualia descriptions & responses under all possible conditions without being an experiential qualia-generating system.

So basically, I take a physicalist view. The qualia zombie concept begs the question by assuming what it attempts to demonstrate - that qualia are not supervenient on brain activity. I think that such a dualist claim needs to be demonstrated, i.e. tested; but by definition it cannot be, since a qualia zombie is indistinguishable from a non-zombie. So, meh to philosophical zombies ;)

Such deficits in motor function ability, speech, etc, would be objective facts. But lost consciousness, and sense of self could come or could still remain without us knowing for sure. It’s like the argument about whether a coma patient can hear & understand you (or even more precisely could THIS coma patient here you, or how about THAT coma patient?). There’s no such argument about the coma patient’s brain scans.
We can't know anything for sure, but we can make a reasonable assessment of the relevant likelihoods based on the available evidence.

Clearly, we can't be certain that when someone goes from apparently alert and responsive to slumped and unresponsive, they have lost consciousness, but - assuming they recover - we can ask them if they remember being conscious during that episode. Even self-reported consciousness or lack of consciousness isn't definitive, but it's as good as we can get. Most of the deficits associated with consciousness that have been studied, are either self-reportable or can be tested by careful questioning or by studying of behaviour.

I do not disagree that higher states of consciousness are an easy inference to make since we have tons of test subjects to verify that higher level functions in the cortex relates to mental states that don’t exist for lower level entities such as those with just hindbrains. But it’s that “What is it like to be a bat” problem. A friend of mine once made the claim that sharks have to be the most miserable creatures on Earth because of their disturbed & lousy sleep patterns. Now what if I made the argument that sharks live in a state of bliss? We know that levels of distress and contentness in organisms are real properties in reality (and sharks might also feel nothing at all), but to answer this shark debate a hard science can never help us (even though each individual shark would know the answer), we would be reduced to some soft science like Behaviorism to just make an inference.
I don't think Behaviourism is relevant here, but we typically judge the level of conscious function by observing active behaviour or responsiveness; for example, if members of one species consistently show an ability to solve simple puzzles and the members of another species with the same physical capabilities don't, we infer the former is more intelligent than the latter; to some extent that's what we mean by intelligence. Similarly for other aspects of consciousness.

Now, I could claim that a frog is actually capable of solving very complex problems but is just not inclined to, but unless I can support my claim with some evidence it's worthless. And we can look at all the circumstantial evidence to see how plausible the claim might be - are the relevant parts of a frog brain as large or sophisticated as the simple problem-solver's? Has any frog ever been observed to exhibit problem-solving capabilities? The evolutionary view - do complex problem-solving capabilities provide a selective advantage to a frog that would outweigh the resources to support such capabilities? and so-on. We do have the means to make reasonable inferences about changes or deficits in certain aspects of consciousness, particularly in humans that can self-report.

Unanswerable questions about reality (questions that we know for sure HAVE answers) that can’t be answered by the tools of hard physical sciences to me reveals that more exists in reality than the physical. Because we just became forced into a situation where we can only use a tool of mental language to describe a part of reality that we know is real…and that is the claim, that there’s a mental fabric of reality that falls outside of the scope of physical reality (although they are both intimately entangled, and dependent on each other).
I'm not clear what unanswerable questions that we know for sure HAVE answers you mean - or whether that's even meaningful... If a question has an answer, then it seems to me that it is answerable, whether we actually have the answer or not.

Yeah I think so too, kind of like a lie detector test but with way more information. Well that’s if we don’t kill ourselves first and have to start over with sticks & stones. Some of these stories about the record droughts, temperatures, water scarcity, floods, etc are weirding me out.
That's my feeling too - I don't expect to be around for the sticks & stones, but I think we need to get as much done as we can before that, and maybe find a way to leave the knowledge as a legacy.
 
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SelfSim

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Even self-reported consciousness or lack of consciousness isn't definitive, but it's as good as we can get. Most of the deficits associated with consciousness that have been studied, are either self-reportable or can be tested by careful questioning or by studying of behaviour.
Well then I think you mean it is definitive by way of those criteria then(?) Ie: there are no other observable criteria and the definition is those observables. Then, of course, there is belief .. philosophical or otherwise.
 
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Bradskii

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So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description.

Then I think that's the point of disagreement. I believe that there is only the material world. But I believe that, however advanced we could be - even hypothetically, some things will always remain beyond us. That's not to say 'mysterious'. I think we'll know how we could possibly get an answer to everything, but that doesn't equate to being able to get that answer.
 
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SelfSim

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Vap841 said:
So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description.
If that's not all evidence for a mind exploring what it has its own concept of reality mean, I don't know what is? A hypothetical (anything) is like a thought experiment and it takes a mind have that thought there, doesn't it? Does anyone actually ever look at the words they write?

What we have, right there, is evidence of a mind exploring its own limits of describability of its own perceptions. The future is also just another of its own perceived concepts, so the future is still no escape pathway from the mind conceiving it.
 
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Ophiolite

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I think we'll know how we could possibly get an answer to everything, but that doesn't equate to being able to get that answer.
A different notion, but having some parallels with what you say: we have vastly more answers already than any individual can know. About the best a human can manage, if they are a true genius, is to comprehend the gross generalities and a smattering of the details of a very specific subject. The rest of us swim in a sea of ignorance which our cognitive dissonance allows us to ignore. (I bet you didn't know that - which proves my point. :))
 
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Vap841

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Well I don't agree that qualia zombies are metaphysically possible; being able to conceive of such a thing doesn't mean it is possible. My view is that a system that is indistinguishable in all ways and under all conditions from one that has qualia, necessarily has qualia too; IOW it cannot respond and report as if it has precisely the same qualia as its non-zombie identical duplicate if it doesn't experience (and think it experiences) those qualia.

Qualia are, by definition, experiential, you can't generate identical qualia descriptions & responses under all possible conditions without being an experiential qualia-generating system.

So basically, I take a physicalist view. The qualia zombie concept begs the question by assuming what it attempts to demonstrate - that qualia are not supervenient on brain activity. I think that such a dualist claim needs to be demonstrated, i.e. tested; but by definition it cannot be, since a qualia zombie is indistinguishable from a non-zombie. So, meh to philosophical zombies ;)
I was wondering what your opinion is on AI? Do you think that microchips can cause the emergence of human like self awareness? I don’t see why so many people believe this when it took billions of years of evolution to culminate in self aware cortexes like ours.
Talking to yourself again, Bradskii?
No he’s not I’m listening. Fact, two of his posts in here caused me to grab a cold beer and go chill in my backyard, but he might be disappointed because they weren’t IPAs lol
 
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Bradskii

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A different notion, but having some parallels with what you say: we have vastly more answers already than any individual can know. About the best a human can manage, if they are a true genius, is to comprehend the gross generalities and a smattering of the details of a very specific subject. The rest of us swim in a sea of ignorance which our cognitive dissonance allows us to ignore. (I bet you didn't know that - which proves my point. :))

As Socrates said, he was possibly the wisest man because he knew how little he actually knew. And just checking to confirm if it was an actual quote (or reported as an actual quote) I have headed down another educational rabbit hole and found myself reading about skepticism on the Stanford Encyclopedia web site. There goes my afternoon - during which I will discover a hell of a lot more that I didn't know this morning.

I was going to say 'Where will this end?' But of course, it doesn't. It just gets worse.
 
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Vap841

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If that's not all evidence for a mind exploring what it has its own concept of reality mean, I don't know what is? A hypothetical (anything) is like a thought experiment and it takes a mind have that thought there, doesn't it?
Yeah I think about this a lot.
The future is also just another of its own perceived concepts, so the future is still no escape pathway from the mind conceiving it.
Plus I am a fan of Hempel’s Dilemma when people anchor a theory on future knowledge that we don’t even have yet, we can’t even say what “The complete version of physics” even looks like.
 
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Bradskii

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A different notion, but having some parallels with what you say: we have vastly more answers already than any individual can know. About the best a human can manage, if they are a true genius, is to comprehend the gross generalities and a smattering of the details of a very specific subject. The rest of us swim in a sea of ignorance which our cognitive dissonance allows us to ignore. (I bet you didn't know that - which proves my point. :))

Following on from the last post, I did some checking to see if anyone considered that there might have been a time when one man (it would have always been a man) could have known everything. Some front runners were: Inside knowledge: The maximum any one person can ever know | New Scientist

'Aristotle of course, was the “last man to know everything” – everything useful to know about the world during his lifetime. No wait, it was Leonardo da Vinci. Or was it Goethe, or his equally brilliant Teutonic contemporary Alexander von Humboldt?'

I'm not convinced. Maybe they knew more than anyone else at the time. But literally everything? I'll bet Goethe didn't know how to make a decent whisky sour.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I was wondering what your opinion is on AI? Do you think that microchips can cause the emergence of human like self awareness? I don’t see why so many people believe this when it took billions of years of evolution to culminate in self aware cortexes like ours.
Yes, I think it is technically possible to emulate brain function in silicon. My view is that brain function is fundamentally computational, and that implies substrate-independence. Whether such an emulation will be feasible in practice, I don't know. I suspect that human-like self-awareness requires an embodied brain, so it would be a massive technical challenge. There are also questions about the connectome and the trillions of inter-neural connections and their properties. It may not be technically practical/possible to map them all, let alone with sufficient resolution.

I don't think evolutionary history presents a problem given that we have brain examples to study and (theoretically) copy. We've recently produced a full structure-function map of the 'brain' of the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans, which should enable a complete in-silico emulation - but it only has 302 neurons rather than 80 billion... Having said that, the Human Brain Project is a serious attempt to model a brain at molecular resolution for medical purposes, and the Blue Brain Project is attempting mouse brain simulations. Progress is slow, don't hold your breath ;)
 
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Bradskii

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Yes, I think it is technically possible to emulate brain function in silicon. My view is that brain function is fundamentally computational, and that implies substrate-independence. Whether such an emulation will be feasible in practice, I don't know. I suspect that human-like self-awareness requires an embodied brain, so it would be a massive technical challenge. There are also questions about the connectome and the trillions of inter-neural connections and their properties. It may not be technically practical/possible to map them all, let alone with sufficient resolution.

I don't think evolutionary history presents a problem given that we have brain examples to study and (theoretically) copy. We've recently produced a full structure-function map of the 'brain' of the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans, which should enable a complete in-silico emulation - but it only has 302 neurons rather than 80 billion... Having said that, the Human Brain Project is a serious attempt to model a brain at molecular resolution for medical purposes, and the Blue Brain Project is attempting mouse brain simulations. Progress is slow, don't hold your breath ;)

I agree with this. There is no doubt that, bearing some major catastrophe, we will reach a point where we will be able to simulate, exactly, the human brain. But will we know what that 'brain in the vat' actually feels like?

Absolutely, undeniably, 100% no.
 
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Vap841

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Yes, I think it is technically possible to emulate brain function in silicon. My view is that brain function is fundamentally computational, and that implies substrate-independence. Whether such an emulation will be feasible in practice, I don't know.
I definitely agree with the ability to emulate it, so I believe in philosophical weak AI but not strong AI
I don't think evolutionary history presents a problem given that we have brain examples to study and (theoretically) copy.
This is an interesting reply that I haven’t thought about, as far as creating self awareness as opposed to just emulating the actions. Usually I see people reply that either no it’s not possible, or they are not nearly as concerned with your technical precision to mimic the brain and they think that Sofia is conscious.

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