When all does not mean all.

[Clare73]

So, the omniscient one has a short memory? Is that what you are saying? - lol

You don't understand Scripture as well as one would expect.

 

[Clare73]

The NT Greek disagrees with you. I gave you the Strong's definition of "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:10-11.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

That applies to the time of salvation.
Those defiant knees will bow and all those lying tongues will confess when the time of salvation has passed and the point of judgment has begun.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

 

[parousia70]

Paul preached to his known world.

Correct. Fulfilling exactly what Jesus Said would happen, then the end would come.

Jesus said His house would be full

Of the INCREASE of His Government and of His Peace there will be NO END. (Isaiah 9:7)

and Paul noted the full number of gentiles.

Paul noted the "fulness of the Gentiles. It is an all too common mishandling of scripture to assert Fulness = Full number. It does not.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago. So did the Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14

Jesus's known world with His understanding would be greater.

So you are saying All does not mean All when the Holy spirit says it, but It does mean all when Jesus Says it?

Does the Holy Spirit have less of an understanding than Jesus?

 

[Clare73]

So you are saying All does not mean All when the Holy spirit Inspired Paul to write it, but It does mean all when Jesus Says it?

Does the Holy Spirit have less of an understanding than Jesus?

Or maybe "all" has more than one usage. . .all without exception (all mankind) or all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew).

 

[parousia70]

Or maybe "all" has more than one usage. . .all without exception (all mankind) or all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew).

So we can make ALL mean whatever we want, based only on what we want it to mean in any given passage?

 

[Clare73]

So we can make ALL mean whatever we want, based only on what we want it to mean in any given passage?

Ever heard of context of the NT for a NT text?

 

[parousia70]

Ever heard of context of the NT?

Excellent. Yes.

But so far no one has demonstrated a contextual difference that mandates we apply a polar opposite definition of the term "All the World" in Matthew 24:14 than we should in Colossians 1:5-6 and/or Romans 16:25-26.

Can you?

So far the only claim I can see that has been put forth is: "Jesus has a greater understanding than the Holy Spirit does".

Which, aside from having nothing to do with "context", I find untenable.

 

[Clare73]

Excellent. Yes.

But so far no one has demonstrated a contextual difference that mandates we apply a polar opposite definition of the term "All the World" in Matthew 24:14 than we should in Colossians 1:5-6 and/or Romans 16:25-26.

Can you?

So far the only claim I can see that has been put forth is: "Jesus has a greater understanding than the Holy Spirit does".

Which, aside from having nothing to do with "context", I find untenable.

Thanks, but not my assertion to defend.

 

[parousia70]

Thanks, but not my assertion to defend.

Great.
So you would agree there is no difference in definition then?

What Jesus meant By "all the world" in Matthew 24:14 is the very same thing that the Holy Spirit meant by "all the World" in Colossians 1:5-6 and/or Romans 16:25-26.

Colossians 1:5-6 and Romans 16:25-26 is nothing less than the Holy Spirit's very own declaration of the FULFILLMENT of Matthew 24:14

 

[Clare73]

Great.
So you would agree there is no difference in definition then?

What Jesus meant By "all the world" in Matthew 24:14 is the very same thing
that the Holy Spirit meant by "all the World" in Colossians 1:5-6 and/or Romans 16:25-26.

Colossians 1:5-6 and Romans 16:25-26 is the Holy Spirit's declaration of the FULFILLMENT of Matthew 24:14

Split decision:

Mt 24:14 refers to "all the nations."

In Col 1:5-6, Paul is using hyperbole (see 1:23) in dramatizing the rapid spread of the gospel into every quarter of the Roman empire within three decades of Pentecost (as the hyperbole in Ro 1:8, 10:18, 16:19). He is refuting the false teachers (2:8-19) regarding a Gnostic heresy of secret knowledge for the few (2:18), insisting that the Christian faith is not merely local or regional but worldwide, and presenting the full riches of complete understanding in the mystery of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (2:2-4).

Ro 16:25-26 is a broader scope than the Roman empire, "so that all nations might believe," distinguishing it from just the Roman empire.

Neither is a declaration of the fulfillment of Mt 24:14, for Paul did not view "all the nations" as having received the gospel at that point.

 

[parousia70]

Mt 24:14 refers to "all the nations."

Matthew 24:14 NKJV
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Neither

is a declaration of the fulfillment of Mt 24:14, for Paul did not view "all the nations" as having received the gospel at that point.

I disagree.
Read the passages again.

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

You said:

In Col 1:5-6, Paul is using hyperbole (see 1:23) in dramatizing the rapid spread of the gospel into every quarter of the Roman empire within three decades of Pentecost (as the hyperbole in Ro 1:8, 10:18, 16:19). He is refuting the false teachers (2:8-19) regarding a Gnostic heresy of secret knowledge for the few (2:18), insisting that the Christian faith is not merely local or regional but worldwide, and presenting the full riches of complete understanding in the mystery of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (2:2-4).

Ro 16:25-26 is a broader scope than the Roman empire, "so that all nations might believe," distinguishing it from just the Roman empire.

I find nothing to disagree with here, however I fail to see how any of what you say demonstrates that these verses are not the declaration of the Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.

I understand you are assuming they don't, But I don't see any evidence refuting my assertion that they do.
Again, if it's a contextual difference, as you initially asserted, where is it?

 

[Clare73]

Matthew 24:14 NKJV
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
I disagree.
Read the passages again.

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

You said:
I find nothing to disagree with here, however I fail to see how any of what you say demonstrates that these verses are not the declaration of the Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.

I understand you are assuming they don't, But I don't see any evidence refuting my assertion that they do.
Again, if it's a contextual difference, as you initially asserted, where is it?

My point is only in relation to Paul's view at the time.
Paul did not view "all the nations" as having received the gospel at that point.

I will not argue against your viewing all the nations now having received the gospel,
and you waiting for the events that will occur after that happens.

However, we have no statement of exactly how long after that happens the events will occur.

 

[parousia70]

My point is only in relation to Paul's view at the time.
Paul did not view "all the nations" as having received the gospel at that point.

Even though he clearly says they had?
I guess I'm missing why you think Paul's words don't mean what they say, and instead mean the exact opposite?

I will not argue against your viewing all the nations now having received the gospel,

My view is that all the nations had received in the 1st century, just as Paul stated they had.
I still se no scriptural instruction to interpret Jesus' use of "All the world and all nations" in polar opposite fashion to Paul's use.

However, we have no statement of exactly how long after that happens the events will occur.

Not exactly, but we know it was to happen "soon" after:
Matthew 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Unless your position is that Jesus meant "when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still thousands of years away to Humans" in this passage?

 

[Clare73]

Even though he clearly says they had?
I guess I'm missing why you think Paul's words don't mean what they say, and instead mean the exact opposite?


My view is that all the nations had received in the 1st century, just as Paul stated they had.

Paul did not teach that.

Please present a Biblical demonstration that he did, in the context of the NT.

I still se no scriptural instruction to interpret Jesus' use of "All the world and all nations" in polar opposite fashion to Paul's use.

Not exactly, but we know it was to happen "soon" after:
Matthew 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Unless your position is that Jesus meant "when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still thousands of years away to Humans" in this passage?

 

[parousia70]

Paul did not teach that.

Except he clearly did.

Please present a Biblical demonstration that he did, in the context of the NT.

I've presented the Biblical demonstration found in Colossians 1:5-6, Colossians 1:23, Romans 1:8
and Romans 16:25-26

Define a context you would accept, that would render the above passages as being interpreted to mean what they say, instead of interpreted to mean the opposite of what they say, which appears to be your preference.

"Context of the NT" is pretty broad....

What context do you believe determines that these passages don't mean what they say, or that Jesus' Proclamation in Matthew 24:14 is not contextually the same as Paul's declarations of the same being fulfilled?

 

[Clare73]

Except he clearly did.
I've presented the Biblical demonstration found in Colossians 1:5-6, Colossians 1:23, Romans 1:8
and Romans 16:25-26

Define a context you would accept,

That would be the passage in which they are found and their relationship to the rest of the NT.

that would render the above passages as being interpreted to mean what they say, instead of interpreted to mean the opposite of what they say, which appears to be your preference.

"Context of the NT" is pretty broad....

What context do you believe determines that these passages don't mean what they say, or that Jesus' Proclamation in Matthew 24:14 is not contextually the same as Paul's declarations of the same being fulfilled?

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no teaching of those in Hell or the lake of fire or the prison place of spirits being redeemed. Those spirits in prison will rise to be condemned.

Di you say, "spirits in prison"? It has already happened once. Why not again?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Randy777]

Di you say, "spirits in prison"? It has already happened once. Why not again?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Spirits in prison as mentioned in Peters letter were pre christ and before the light of the gospel message. With the light of the gospel message comes accountability to all. (justice to the nations)

The unrighteous dead now will rise to be condemned.

 

[Randy777]

Correct. Fulfilling exactly what Jesus Said would happen, then the end would come.

Of the INCREASE of His Government and of His Peace there will be NO END. (Isaiah 9:7)

Paul noted the "fulness of the Gentiles. It is an all too common mishandling of scripture to assert Fulness = Full number. It does not.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago. So did the Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14



So you are saying All does not mean All when the Holy spirit says it, but It does mean all when Jesus Says it?

Does the Holy Spirit have less of an understanding than Jesus?

Paul's missionary journeys are well known. They were through many peoples and nations. Now pull out your globe and compare the two. Clearly the whole world was not evangelized in Paul's day.
So to Paul the gospels was spread through, as in his thought, to all nations. Jesus's understanding is greater than all in regard to the actual peoples of all the world. The end still hasn't come.

Jesus said His house will be full. Apparently there's still room.

I think this prayer applies to people in Christ even in this day.
John 17
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

 

[parousia70]

So to Paul the gospels was spread through, as in his thought, to all nations. Jesus's understanding is greater than all in regard to the actual peoples of all the world.

Again, Paul wrote and taught only what he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write and teach.

Is your claims that Jesus' understanding is therefore greater than the Holy Spirit's?