When a spouse is more of an enemy than a partner.

[ChristianGolfer]

So when challenges in marriage come (and they will) what will you tell yourself? That you're unhappy and someone needs to change most likely... That's the inevitable result.

I'll tell myself the same things I've told myself when challenges in life come. I wasn't born the day I got married. I've had to learn how to live with people before this, you know.

That is, I will examine my own heart and see if there's anything I need to do to change. "Am I being selfish? Am I contributing to this? Is there anything I can do to make it better?"

But "challenges" are one thing. My husband being my enemy is a completely different matter.

Even if I'm mad at a my husband because I think he's being selfish or lazy or whatever, I don't think of him as my enemy. He's my partner, remember.

To merit the label "enemy," he'd need to be abusive. And that would be all on him. And I would be gone.

Holiness through the marriage relationship doesn't mean that marriage is a constant challenge and that happiness is a long gone daydream-far from it.

Okay, you mean to say that "when I talk about holiness in marriage, I don't mean...." right?

Because I've heard lots of people talk about holiness in marriage in my life - both online and off. And most of the times I've seen/heard it come up, it was in the context of ongoing unhappiness and strife in marriage. It comes up when someone says "I'm so unhappy in my marriage" and another person (usually a staunchly anti-divorce person) says "well, marriage isn't supposed to make you happy, it's supposed to make you holy, so count it all joy and whatever you do, don't consider divorce."

I've seen it most often as a means of dismissing the real problems in relationships.

But I would suggest that cultivating holiness through the marriage relationship brings a greater depth than merely relying on it to cure our need for a partner in life (although it does meet this need).

What do you mean by "cultivating holiness through the marriage relationship"?

What does that mean in practical terms?

How is different than "cultivating holiness" in other relationships? In other areas of our life?

How is it that "cultivating holiness" is not the job of the Holy Spirit?

What Scriptural support do you have for the idea that the purpose/intent of marriage is "cultivating holiness?"

Now to the bold/underlined part. Your spouse will fail you in this area. It's inevitable. He will do it. Be ready. What will you do then?

Of course he will. He already has. And I have and will fail him too. And we talk about it and apologize to one another and move on, trying not to do it again. The conflict which will be successfully resolved through communication with one another will bring us closer to one another in the end.

That's how relationships work.

But if I wasn't already being sanctified; if I hadn't already learned how to do unto others as I want them to do to me, to love my neighbor, and all the other things that being "holy" is all about, then being married wouldn't have magically taught me those things.

It isn't the marriage that makes me more holy. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in ALL circumstances of my life that does this.

I would suggest that the concept of holiness in marriage applies in EXACTLY these times, when your spouse will fail you and you will see he is a fallen human being who will disappoint you. You will need to demonstrate to him (and he to you) that in times when you fail and show your human-ness to each other the greater goal is to demonstrate Christ to one another. That is holiness in marriage.

Meh. Maybe you'll think it's semantics, but I'm not here to "demonstrate" Christ to my husband. That's not a goal of my marriage.

I am committed to actually loving my husband for who he is - warts and all. I'm not loving him so that I can put on a show in which I pantomime Christ.

It irritates me that people often seem to assume that I'm naive and/or that I am likely to be really selfish just because I say I don't think God's purpose for marriage was to make people holy.

The purpose of marriage is to give us support, provide a stable environment for the raising of children and other very practical things.

Christ's sacrifice and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have the purpose of making us holy.

Can God use marriage and some of the conflict within marriages to build character? Of course. Does one need to be married for God to build character in us? Of course not.

I think the purpose of marriage is as I stated, and as I believe Scripture states: partnership, shared burdens, shared joys.

God is able to, and does, sanctify and perfect us through the hard times and conflicts in our life. The people we live with are often those we are most likely to have those honing and sharpening conflicts with. So a by-product of marriage CAN be (not will be or must be) increased holiness.

Furthermore, holiness - being loving, self-less, forgiving, etc - will increase happiness in our relationships - especially in marriage when both spouses are increasing in holiness. So, it is a false dichotomy to say that marriage is not about happiness but about God making us holy.

HTH.

 

[mkgal1]

Okay, so let's answer this along with mkgal1's

I agree. But He does not do this in a vacuum. He will perform his ongoing work of holiness in us (sanctification) through others. He is a God of relationship. So to assume that the marriage relationship won't be used as an outlet to make us more like Him is just wrong.
I like sunshine and lollipops too (actually I prefer ice cream and Tim's coffee and so does my wife, but that's another thread) and there are plenty of good times to go around in marriage, but when they wax and wane, what answer do we have? I prefer to look at the grander scheme of things as God using marriage to draw me closer to Him and perfect me in His image.

I see what you're saying......it's just that statement has potential for being misused. If the one person that is supposed to be joined with us through life----is the one person that's tearing down what God is building---that's a serious problem.

I'm really offended by your "sunshine and lollipops" comment, TBH. I'm not naive. I've been in my marriage for 24 years, so I'm aware of what marriage is like. If I had expectations of sunshine and lollipops---TBH, I wouldn't have even had one night as a married person--as serious things came up immediately after we were married.

When I say "enemy".....as I've repeated......I'm not talking about things like, "he doesn't buy me the 'right' birthday gift. I've TOLD him what I like." I'm talking about things that *are* in the "bigger picture"----things that are working against God's grander scheme.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Our spouse will not take the place of God. They won't know us as God knows us.....but, when I hear that a spouse will automatically fail us in being the one person we can depend on....I have to ask, "what do you mean?" I don't want to suppose. No one else in this world has vowed to join their life with us until death.....so, if we can't expect our spouse to "be there" to support us through life....then, what is that promise for?

Avniel said early washing dishes could be seen as a betrayal of trust. I would never see it that way. If someone's trust is so easily broken, that all it takes is their spouse to forget to wash the dishes.....that's a very fragile marriage based on little substance (IMO).

Okay, I agree with this. I kinda went along with the "he'll disappoint you" thing in my post but....

This is really a more accurate explanation of what I think with regards to that.

Will my husband sometimes disappoint me by not supporting me as much as I want him to? Maybe. I mean, there have been a couple of times that I've thought he would react a certain way and he was kinda "meh" about it and that irritated me.

But did he "let me down"? No, he really didn't.

My husband is committed to - and earnestly desires to - be supportive of me, to walk along side me. Just as I am committed to and earnestly desire to support and encourage and help him.

And I think it's fair for us to expect that from one another. Because that's what we told each other we'd do.

 

[mkgal1]

IMO.....*this* should be the goal of two Christians that are married:

God's vision compels us to look beyond ourselves, to ponder a picture of how things were meant to be that leaves us aching for his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, and to look for ways to participate in moving the world toward that goal. - Carolyn Custis James, "Half the Sky"

That doesn't mean they will do it perfectly......but, one can tell when a person has this as their motivation.

Remember....

"Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples."~john 13:35

....it's noticeable.....recognizable.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Our spouse will not take the place of God. They won't know us as God knows us.....but, when I hear that a spouse will automatically fail us in being the one person we can depend on....I have to ask, "what do you mean?" I don't want to suppose. No one else in this world has vowed to join their life with us until death.....so, if we can't expect our spouse to "be there" to support us through life....then, what is that promise for?

Avniel said early washing dishes could be seen as a betrayal of trust. I would never see it that way. If someone's trust is so easily broken, that all it takes is their spouse to forget to wash the dishes.....that's a very fragile marriage based on little substance (IMO).

Simple. We are fallible persons. All of my energies right now are invested in my marriage. All of them. There are challenges my wife and I are facing that I won't divulge here that seem hard to surmount and, for sure, we depend on each other to see ourselves through most days. But we both know that our primary dependence and relationship is centred on Christ. There are days where my wife, because of all she has to face in her life right now, cannot be burdened with my worries (even though she says she can and has never failed to be there for me). I also know that there are days where she has needed me to be her support during struggles in her life where I know I have been less than available.

Now we have options on what to do. She and I can blame each other for not 'living up to' what was promised at the beginning, during courtship, or even at the beginning of the marriage when we were probably trying to be at our best for one another-before reality hit and we realized who we were really living with. Or we can adjust to the reality of who we are; people who, at times, will not live up to the ideal.

So whose problem is it that the ideal is not reality? Hers? Mine? Some come here and argue that point ad nauseam. But the perspective of the marriage relationship being used of God to cultivate holiness in us takes the focus off of who is ultimately at 'fault' for failing to live up to the ideal and puts it squarely back on our relationship with Christ and growing in His likeness.
I would suggest that to do this does not let sin off the hook, but actually makes each person more accountable for sin, first to God, then to the spouse. Who can argue with that? Ultimately, I believe this brings the kind of lasting happiness in marriage that we have been seeking all along.

 

[Avniel]

That's why I put the qualifier that my example was someone "speeding" .....yet, "not being reckless". Legally.....I am speeding on the freeway when I'm doing 66 MPH (in some places).......even if I am alone and it's a bright sunny day, and I can see clearly for miles.



But, you are describing a completely different situation than I'm trying to describe. I am talking about someone trying to hurt another person---intentionally. Bullying is real.....abuse is real......there are people that literally *enjoy* the feeling of seeing someone in pain (and I'm not talking about S & M, either).

A lot of us seemed to have been raised that "evil" and "bad people" have a certain look. We seem to think of "diabolical" as an ax murderer. "Diabolical" doesn't have a certain "look"....nor is it always easily identified. We are instructed in the Bible to "not be ignorant of our enemies devices". Just as we are God's "hands and feet"......our enemy *also* has those that carry out his work---and some of them are people we are "in life" with.

I get what your saying I just disagree somewhat.

I think trust has some universal things truth, loyalty ect. but I do think there are some variables.

For example if my mom doesn't like someone your disloyal if you do. My wife thinks its unlike Christ to not like someone because she doesn't. My mom views that as betrayal my wife views it as being a Christian.

At second look maybe we agree but I'm just not understanding how it couldn't be subjective.

 

[mkgal1]

Simple. We are fallible persons. All of my energies right now are invested in my marriage. All of them. There are challenges my wife and I are facing that I won't divulge here that seem hard to surmount and, for sure, we depend on each other to see ourselves through most days. But we both know that our primary dependence and relationship is centred on Christ. There are days where my wife, because of all she has to face in her life right now, cannot be burdened with my worries (even though she says she can and has never failed to be there for me). I also know that there are days where she has needed me to be her support during struggles in her life where I know I have been less than available.

Now we have options on what to do. She and I can blame each other for not 'living up to' what was promised at the beginning, during courtship, or even at the beginning of the marriage when we were probably trying to be at our best for one another-before reality hit and we realized who we were really living with. Or we can adjust to the reality of who we are; people who, at times, will not live up to the ideal.

So whose problem is it that the ideal is not reality? Hers? Mine? Some come here and argue that point ad nauseam. But the perspective of the marriage relationship being used of God to cultivate holiness in us takes the focus off of who is ultimately at 'fault' for failing to live up to the ideal and puts it squarely back on our relationship with Christ and growing in His likeness.
I would suggest that to do this does not let sin off the hook, but actually makes each person more accountable for sin, first to God, then to the spouse. Who can argue with that? Ultimately, I believe this brings the kind of lasting happiness in marriage that we have been seeking all along.

But, Christiangolfer didn't say a spouse should be our main support......she said the main PERSON that is our support. There's a big difference when one isn't leaning on God as the MAIN support.

To cut God out of the equation, would be idolatry......that's not going to "work".....and that isn't what was posted.

 

[motherprayer]

I guess for me there is a gray area in the realm of marriage between what is manageable and what is not. I mean, how hard should one fight before they give up and file for divorce? Just how much is "too much" in the things we deal with from our spouses?

My husband was lost for a long time. I had to leave him because our relationship was so volatile it wasn't safe for our girls.
When I left, it wasn't with the goal of divorce. It was with the goal to be separate from him while he worked things out with God. At that point I had every worldly right to be done with him, and if I had walked away permanantly, no one would have questioned me about it.
In fact, everyone who was close to the situation congratulated me for "having the strength to get out" and told me I should "never look back."
God told me He would heal my husband. No one believed it, and some people who don't know him well still don't.
Now, if I had walked away, I would probably be content living on my own and raising my girls.
But because I waited on God to work, and gave my husband a chance, I have so much more than that. I not only now have the best husband in the world, but I appreciate and cherish him so much more than I would if I didn't know how different things could be!

Things for us still aren't perfect, but that is okay. We are planning on renewing our vows, and we look to the Lord for our help when we mess up, rather than asking for people around us to validate our wrongs (which is a huge problem for many people).

Marriage doesn't mean perfection, and if one only sees it as being worth their time when things are right, they are courting disaster. We have to look toward God when we mess up and when our spouses mess up, and see what He would have us do, which often is the complete opposite of what other people would have us do.
I received so much ungodly advice from Godly people while I was separated from my husband. People said I needed to go back right away, and that I was allowing demons into my marriage by staying separated. Others said I needed to move on with my life, and shouldn't even have contact with him. Still more said I should never have left in the first place.
But I will say this: I believe 100% that if I had done things any differently than the way God told me to, I would not be sitting here, posting this message while my husband cooks dinner and randomly tells me he loves me.

 

[mkgal1]

I get what your saying I just disagree somewhat.

I think trust has some universal things truth, loyalty ect. but I do think there are some variables.

For example if my mom doesn't like someone your disloyal if you do. My wife thinks its unlike Christ to not like someone because she doesn't. My mom views that as betrayal my wife views it as being a Christian.

At second look maybe we agree but I'm just not understanding how it couldn't be subjective.

Right....that's not betrayal....even if your mom believes it is. That's why I'm saying that there are qualifications as to what is truly "betrayal". It's probably more common than not, that people see it as a betrayal if others around them don't believe just like them. People need to be "allowed" to believe what they truly believe....and to be honest about it. If not---that's not two people genuinely loving one another.....that's one conforming to the other. It's pretend love---like in my signature verse.

I think what explains best is this quote I saw awhile back...."Truth is truth....even if no one believes it; a lie is a lie.....even if everyone believes it."

I may have just muddied up those waters.....did I?

 

[mkgal1]

As far as the question as to "what is the purpose of marriage?"......if any of you are interested, I believe this video gives a thorough (and truthful) answer to that. At least it resonates as the truth to me:

Christopher West - Body Theology 1 of 4 - YouTube

 

[Romanseight2005]

I get what your saying I just disagree somewhat.

I think trust has some universal things truth, loyalty ect. but I do think there are some variables.

For example if my mom doesn't like someone your disloyal if you do. My wife thinks its unlike Christ to not like someone because she doesn't. My mom views that as betrayal my wife views it as being a Christian.

At second look maybe we agree but I'm just not understanding how it couldn't be subjective.

I think that Mkgal is working with a standard of truth though. In reality, liking someone your mother does not like ISN'T a betrayal. So if your saying that a person can be deceived, then yes, a person can be deceived, but that still doesn't change the actual definition, or standard, for betrayal.

 

[Avniel]

I think that Mkgal is working with a standard of truth though. In reality, liking someone your mother does not like ISN'T a betrayal. So if your saying that a person can be deceived, then yes, a person can be deceived, but that still doesn't change the actual definition, or standard, for betrayal.

I think betrayal like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If my wife feels betrayed that she doesn't like my best friend and I'm still cool with him I can't say she's not feeling betrayed.

You can't write off what another person believes is betrayal because you don't believe so.

There are things you feel is betrayal that I might not feel and vice versa does that mean one of us is wrong and one of us is right?

 

[mkgal1]

I think betrayal like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If my wife feels betrayed that she doesn't like my best friend and I'm still cool with him I can't say she's not feeling betrayed.

You can't write off what another person believes is betrayal because you don't believe so.

There are things you feel is betrayal that I might not feel and vice versa does that mean one of us is wrong and one of us is right?

I don't see it that way. She can "feel" betrayed---but, that doesn't always mean that's truly a betrayal...... that's where communication comes in---and a desire for nothing to come between the two of you. But.....I also believe there is a side of "right"....and a side of "wrong". It's up to both spouse to listen with an open mind to their spouse....and not just base decisions on what's typical---what "most people" do....."what they say at church".....but, truly seek out what's right in God's eyes. Not each and every situation that seems the same is going to have the same answer, either. Only God knows all the details---so, it's best that we seek Him in everything.

*It's just really difficult to speak in abstract. We all have our own "world view" and when we hear certain words, we can be thinking of completely different things.

 

[Avniel]

Right....that's not betrayal....even if your mom believes it is. That's why I'm saying that there are qualifications as to what is truly "betrayal". It's probably more common than not, that people see it as a betrayal if others around them don't believe just like them. People need to be "allowed" to believe what they truly believe....and to be honest about it. If not---that's not two people genuinely loving one another.....that's one conforming to the other. It's pretend love---like in my signature verse.

I think what explains best is this quote I saw awhile back...."Truth is truth....even if no one believes it; a lie is a lie.....even if everyone believes it."

I may have just muddied up those waters.....did I?

No you cleared it up.

I think you view the feeling of being betrayed as either justified or unjustified if unjustified then the feeling isn't betrayal.

What I think is the feeling of betrayal is justified or unjustified it's a feeling.

 

[mkgal1]

No you cleared it up.

I think you view the feeling of being betrayed as either justified or unjustified if unjustified then the feeling isn't betrayal.

What I think is the feeling of betrayal is justified or unjustified it's a feeling.

Not really. I don't think it's solely about feelings...and whether they are justified or unjustified. It's more about how a person responds to us when we express that we feel betrayed.

I think betrayal is about selfish ambition....instead of genuinely loving someone.

Sometimes we *think* someone has done something out of selfishness, but communication can clear it up---and they can be sorrowful that we even *thought* they were selfish (as it risked harming the relationship). Likewise.....we can bring up our suspicions about the possibility of their selfishness.....and they can confirm it by dismissing our concerns----or denying it. Then, I believe that would be betrayal. They chose to leave us feeling wronged and damaged the relationship by refusing to make an effort to reconcile things. That's in opposition to what most people presume to be the "agreement" for marriage. Unresolved conflicts destroy a marriage----so, that person has just joined with our enemy (and become our enemy as well).

 

[mkgal1]

Betrayal (or backstabbing) is the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others. Someone who betrays others is commonly called a traitor or betrayer. Betrayal is also a commonly used literary element and is often associated with or used as a plot twist.~Wiki definition

What I bolded is probably the key distinction.....and really what an enemy is (IMV)----someone that we presumed was on "our team".....and suddenly joined up with our rival (Satan).

 

[Avniel]

Not really. I don't think it's solely about feelings...and whether they are justified or unjustified. It's more about how a person responds to us when we express that we feel betrayed.

I think betrayal is about selfish ambition....instead of genuinely loving someone.

Sometimes we *think* someone has done something out of selfishness, but communication can clear it up---and they can be sorrowful that we even *thought* they were selfish (as it risked harming the relationship). Likewise.....we can bring up our suspicions about the possibility of their selfishness.....and they can confirm it by dismissing our concerns----or denying it. Then, I believe that would be betrayal. They chose to leave us feeling wronged and damaged the relationship by refusing to making an effort to reconcile things. That's in opposition to what most people presume to be the "agreement" for marriage. Unresolved conflicts destroy a marriage----so, that person has just joined with our enemy (and become our enemy as well).

Interesting I'm not going to lie I kinda disagree but I'm going to have to think really hard because I do see your point and it makes sense

 

[mkgal1]

Still thinking on this.

Isn't the opposite of "betrayal"...."loyalty"?

I just read this:

Loyal? What does “loyal” mean? It’s actually pretty simple to define: when you are loyal, you “have the backs” of those who’ve “had your back.”

You “have their backs” because you want to “have their backs.” You are glad, if not grateful, for the chance to “have the backs” of those who’ve had yours. This is loyalty. It’s application feels good, and it feels consonant with the loyal individual’s “value system.”

Now, in some cases “loyalty” can lead to corruption. For instance, look at law enforcement: cops, corrections officers, will often “have each others’ backs”—they will often “go down” protecting their own even in scandals where, intellectually, they are well aware that laws were broken (by colleagues and friends), and the public’s trust violated. But they “have each others’ backs,” sometimes stubbornly and illegally. Their loyalty to each other may, in a rather complex way, sometimes contravenes other “values” they may have, such as ethical ones.

In a person of conscience, this may produce real conflict and stress. In someone with a weaker conscience, this may not be the case.~Steve Becker

I don't think that is true loyalty....when people join together in corruption. I believe that genuine loyalty is wanting what is best for the other person (but if they *don't* agree with what's best for them---I believe "save yourself" applies--remaining loyal to God).

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Still thinking on this.

Isn't the opposite of "betrayal"...."loyalty"?

I don't think that is true loyalty....when people join together in corruption. I believe that genuine loyalty is wanting what is best for the other person (but if they *don't* agree with what's best for them---I believe "save yourself" applies--remaining loyal to God).

There's the rub. How do you discern what is 'best' for the relationship, the other person, you?
"wanting what is best for you" is a line my wife uses a lot when she and I disagree, especially when I feel disrespected by her.
"Save yourself" can also land you in hot water. You know the old adage 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions...'
Sorry if I'm cynical but the fluff of my last few posts in this thread is really hitting me in the face today :/

 

[If Not For Grace]

I don't think two people that have become one can be enemies

The two do not "become" one overnight, it is a process. Sometimes not every marriage completes this process and Sometimes the person you end up with is not the one you married. Most do not even do the fasting and prayer they should before the marriage. Many marry for the WRONG reason (Pregnancy, social pressures, to have a roof over their head) and then are surprised when it's not all wine and roses.

People continue to make individual choices after they marry. One spouse may choose to become involved in drugs or alcohol and these things may take over their lives. These choices can snowball into circumstances no person should have to bear.
Is this the way God Intended? No..but even Adam and Eve did not operate according to "plan".

The purpose of marriage is to perseve the family unit (not to make us holy) we are made holy being born into the kindgom. The family unit should be treated as holy but in order for that to happen the two principals have to be in either in agreement or 1 of the two must be in a very submissive position and endure what most would consider a miserable life-finding whatever joy there is outside the spouse who is not living according to the "plan".

It does no good to stay in a relationship of hate, nor is this pleasing to God. God lays out for us all the things marriage should be and the phrase "for better or worse" is NOT scripture. Many verses regarding the unequally yoked have been quoted above. God wants us to be in loving relationship with all-but the members of "all" get a vote. I know women who are doing nothing more but sitting around "waiting even hoping for their husbands to die" because the men have been so horrific in the treatment of their wives.

There are only 3 real choices in life: Life will force you at SOME point:

1) To choose between right and wrong (Good/Evil)
2) To choose between the lesser of two evils (undesirable options)
3) To choose what you need above what you want (if you want to be sucessful)

It amazes me that we (christians) are more ready to forgive the man who Killed his Wife and children, than the couple who got a divorce.