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We're just trying to say that the scripture teaches that God is in control of our eternal destiny, not us.
Lol, so now you redefine faith to claim real Christians can't fall away. You are contradicting your own doctrine by saying faith is now only a set of doctrines when before it was God given. You can't fall away from what you never really had. Faith is belief in what we can't see, specifically Christ's death and resurrection. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
If your opinion is correct, then why is it that so many adult converts to the Holy Orthodox Church often remark on the sense of relief—not to say liberation—they felt on becoming acquainted with Orthodoxy’s teaching on salvation? We have heard testimonies to this point on many occasions. These folks, coming mainly from Protestant backgrounds, had previously thought about salvation in chiefly forensic terms. Perhaps these did not really "understand reformed theology" either? We might want to ask: if this is the case, is reformed theology even worth understanding.
Lol, so now you redefine faith to claim real Christians can't fall away. You are contradicting your own doctrine by saying faith is now only a set of doctrines when before it was God given. You can't fall away from what you never really had. Faith is belief in what we can't see, specifically Christ's death and resurrection. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Since belief in the gospel is the gift of God, "choosing to believe" is a description of what God has previously done in a person's heart, namely "raised them to life, and seated them in the heavenly places in Christ." Don't confuse the cause and effect.Yes, he effectively redeems those who choose to believe. I can quote you multiple verses confirming that, if you like.
Since belief in the gospel is the gift of God, "choosing to believe" is a description of what God has previously done in a person's heart, namely "raised them to life, and seated them in the heavenly places in Christ." Don't confuse the cause and effect.
TD
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.Your bias forces you to think that practicing righteousness is chronologically before coming to the light. The text simply does not say that. Since all men before spiritual rebirth are unrighteous, it is impossible for them to practice righteousness as God defines it. Therefore, the practice of righteousness comes after them coming to the light, since righteousness is a result of being in the light. Therefore your idea contradicts what scripture clearly teaches.
TD
I disagree with you on this matter. Peter is writing to the church. Note it says "patient toward you," meaning those people in the churches who he is writing to. The implication is that God wishes none of them to perish. To bring in unbelievers into this context doesn't fit the context. I do realize that your interpretation of this verse is common and traditional, but it is simply wrong because it doesn't follow correct hermeneutics.Yes God desires all men to be saved. Your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is incorrect because Paul said in Romans 2 and Romans 9 that God is being kind & patient towards those who are stubborn and the vessels of wrath also. God is being patient will everyone.
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NASB
Your objection here doesn't support your idea that Christians aren't predestined. I don't see reformed theology denying that God has patience with everyone.“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
Romans 2:3-5 NASB
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
Romans 9:22-24 NASB
This is one single verse that Arminians like to quote because it appears to be a stand-alone statement. But let me point to other scriptures which indicate that Arminians might not be fully understanding what the apostle is trying to teach in this statement.1 Timothy 2:3-4 says the same thing.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
1 Timothy 2:3-6 NASB
So I take it that you don't believe this statement applies to you? And you're not Christ's disciple in the same way they were?Yes Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you. In what context did He say that? He said this in John 15 when He was telling His 11 faithful apostles to abide (remain, stay, continue) in Him and to bear fruit. He said
“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
John 15:16 NASB
All warnings about falling away in scripture are heeded by those who have spiritual understanding. All believers fear God, and so heeding the warnings are a given. God's divine influence in them is so powerful that Peter can say with confidence that we are "kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." And since faith is the gift of God, believers are kept by the power of God. Part of that is the wisdom to heed the warning to abide in Him. Part of it is the faith they have that God's power keeps them in Christ. There are many other parts.Here Jesus is basically telling them I chose you to do a job so do it. Notice that even tho He chose them He still feels it’s is necessary to tell them to abide/remain in Him. Why would He tell them this if they were incapable of failing to abide in Him?
Your assessment is not a "slam dunk." I disagree with it. You're trying to say that reformed theology makes wicked men inculpable for their sin. I disagree with that assessment, and contend that it's a straw man. The scripture says men love darkness rather than light. This means they love the pleasures of sin, and hate the will of God. The reason they are incapable of complying with God's commandments is because they are in rebellion against God. They are blinded by Satan and can't see the light of the gospel. So they don't have any hope of having a spiritually greater advantage to their lives than the pleasures of sin. This makes them incapable of reasoning out the blessings of the gospel. But since they are in rebellion against God, they cannot believe in Christ (and have no reason in their minds to do so). And since they don't believe (and can't because of their sinful attitude), "the wrath of God abides on them." And so, since God is just, His wrath is just, and this proves that they are culpable.This theology makes God’s judgement on the “unelected” unjust for condemning them for failing to comply with commandments which are impossible for them to comply with.
All true believers heed all the warnings, because they have the spiritual wisdom to do so. Those who don't believe God don't heed the warnings because they don't believe. They would rather have the pleasures of sin than eternal life, because their vision is blinded by the devil.Also how do you explain Romans 11:17-23? The branches who were grafted in by God can be cut off Him and grafted back in again if they repent of their unbelief.
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
Romans 11:17-23 NASB
How can anyone fail to abide in Christ as stated in John 15:6?
Finally someone is reasonable on the subject. I agree with much of what you say, here's where I disagree.
I believe the supernatural act of God you speak of is being confused with the power of gospel being heard. In other words, when the person hears the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts the heart and there is no additional act of God needed for the person to make the decision.
I remember when I was saved many years ago. I was the person in my opening statement that said yes to Christ. It was mothers day, and my mom asked me to go. How could I say no? It was all planned by God, the time, the message, the invitation and even the guest preacher.
When the Holy Spirit entered my heart sitting there listening, I began to shake uncontrollably. I knew that instant by what the preacher said and the explosion (it seemed) inside my heart I was a lost sinner with no hope at all but by accepting Christ.
That was the call of God to Charlie. I chose to accept. The only supernatural act that took place was the pull of the Holy Spirit that came at a snap of a finger.
I call this a decision for Christ that would have never happened if God hadn't set it up. But it was of my own free will that I accepted. Some here say that because of my free will choice I'm not saved, I have took hold of the law in place of grace. LOL, I know better.
Funny, because what you just said about God's will is not supported by reformed theology. If God's will is not always done in salvation, then unconditional election goes out the window. If a person doesn't have his name in The book of Life, then according to reformed theology, that was exactly what God chose for him. Y'all need to keep your story straight. You can't have God pre choosing some and ignoring others and then turn around and say he did not get his will.Finally, you are confusing reformed theology with determinism, it's not the same. God's will is NOT always done, seeing that every person who rejects Christ to the end of his life does not have his name in the book of life, and is cast into the lake of fire. Such people are under the control of the evil one, not in God's will. You need to understand the difference between this and God ultimately having control of circumstances because He is wise enough to circumvent the opposing wills of the devil and his messengers.
I've already studied 4 years at BJU in the early eighties, and many years since reading behind the theologians.You can claim that you're a Christian by your own free will if you want. But how do you know if that is a vain fantasy that will disappear in the day of judgment? Paul says "let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." I do see you boasting in the Lord by saying that you trembled at the preaching of the gospel. Can you let me give some of my assessments?
1. You said the Spirit entered your heart - that sounds to me like you were born again.
2. You said you were listening - it tells me God had already prepared your heart to pay attention.
3. You said you shook uncontrollably - it tells me that God's power came on you so powerfully that resisting His grace wasn't possible for you in that moment.
4. You said you chose to accept the call of God - this was clearly after God did the work of saving you, ref. Eph. 2:5.
5. You said you experienced an explosion in your heart - sounds to me like God broke through your defenses and conquered you.
6. You said that God set it up - I go further in saying that God set you up.
But then you back off of giving God glory by giving yourself glory by saying "it was of my own free will that I accepted." I get that you think of it that way because of the bias of your viewpoint. The point is, it's a matter of your philosphical/theological bias as to how you interpret your experience. I challenge you to go all the way to giving God the full glory by studying scripture to see if reformed doctrine is really what is taught in the NT by the apostle Paul, and coming to the same conclusion about Eph. 2:5.
TD
Why are you jumping to a different book? The context of the Matthew passage is people who had faith falling away, totally different subject. Nice try, but no candy for you.Jude :3 "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints."
"The faith" here does not mean an individual's personal trust in Christ, since that definition would not fit in this context. The apostle is talking about the set of doctrines and practices taught by Jesus and the apostles in the NT. Notice it says "the faith," not "their faith." Notice it says "once for all handed down" - this can only mean the specific teachings we now have in the NT.
It's a lot more than this. It says that sin is inherited.Adam and Eve where the first humans to sin, so in that sense it is the original sin.
The idea that people are created at birth the same as Adam and Eve in sinlessness is nonsense. If you observe children growing up, they have to be taught to do right. But they don't have to be taught to do wrong, since they do that by nature. Therefore, every person has a nature inclined to sin, as clearly taught in Rom. 5:12. Babies may be "sinless" because they simply aren't capable of committing acts of sin, and God saves them because of His mercy, not because they deserve it by reason of personal righteousness or innocence.Knowledge of good and evil was passed down to all humans giving a great many other ways to sin, so that seems to be the only change within humans which could be described as a “change in human nature”, but there is nothing suggest anything else changed about human nature.
As far as humans being “conceived” as sinners because of something Adam and Eve did, I do not find that in scripture and would consider that unjust, by the way God presented just and unjust in scripture.
My doctrinal understanding would have babies sinless until they committed sins themselves so they are in a safe condition not needing salvation, but would also not have fulfilled their earthly objective.
How you define "knowledge" in this context is very shallow, and doesn't fit the context. It is commonly known that the term "knowledge" in scripture is many-faceted. Intimacy is one of them. So when God says "they have become like us," He is talking about autonomy.I do not agree with any of these guys.
Wow, that is not the way I define “knowledge of Good and evil” and do not fine that kind of definition in scripture. Prior to eating Adam and Eve had knowledge of right and wrong with the only wrong thing they might do was to eat from the tree of knowledge. Knowing what is evil does not always keep you from doing evil, but it does not allow you to rewrite what is evil.
Your statement here is the very thing I was trying to convey. When I said "human nature by itself" I meant with God's love and power working through it. Such was my intention. Human nature was meant to have God's love and power working through it, and this is how man was originally created. When man sinned, he lost that connection, and so his nature became sinful. No one has that connection unless God makes the connection, therefore man is naturally sinful.What our very best all human representatives showed us is “human mature” by itself will sin without Deity’s Love and Power which Christ had.
Don't confuse physical death with spiritual. Physical death is a "shadow" pointing to the spiritual, and so if we are contemplative of the spiritual, the physical will teach us a lesson. When Paul says death spread to all men, he is talking about spiritual death, although it may be difficult to distinguish in that context, but the context is the spiritual nature.Paul blames death on all humans sinning, but the fact that we will die would help us in seeking God’s help to overcome the power of sinning and thus go to heaven.
This is the same straw man as the question "why should we then pray?" God is intimately involved in His creation, and prayer, making choices, faith, etc. are all part of His working in humans - oh, but only if you believe it.Right, and in life or death you want to help others, but if all their fait is predetermined without them having to make a free will choice why would you want to stay and help and really what can you significantly “do”?
I'm in agreement.Grace is unmerited because God is a gift giver and such a huge gift could never be earned by humans.
I'm in agreement.Why Christ became our atonement sacrifice is a huge topic. We could never do anything to deserve, earn, be worthy of grace, so it is unconditional and unmerited.
To accept God's help requires faith, and faith cannot be exercised by someone in whom God has not done that work of grace, ref. Rom. 8:7.If the worldly person is to be condemned for not understanding, then he has to be able to understand and a selfish person can “understand”: being burdened and being unburdened because he has become burdened, from there he just has to accept God’s help to become unburdened.
This analogy falls short of the nature of relationship with God. It's not like relationship with other people, in the sense that "the kingdom of God is within you."I am not suggesting anything as big and bold as “surrendering your will to God”, since soldiers do not do that, when they surrender to their enemy, they just are willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity form those they hate.
I don't use the term "arbitrary" with an evil connotation the way it is often used. The primary def. is "subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion." It simply says that God's mercy on people is at His discretion, and is not based on any apparent righteousness in those individuals - Rom. 9:18.If you are totally impartial is that not the same as being arbitrary or how ae they different?
The only way a person can become willing to humble themselves before God is if they already believe that He is favorable to them. Without that hope, they cannot humble themselves. It's a matter of belief, which is the gift of God.You say: “The prodigal son's selfish reasons do not correspond with God's choice to save someone.” I am saying you have to humble yourself to the point of just being willing to accept pure charity and that allows God to help you, if you are not just willing to humbly accept charity God will not help you. You seem to be saying: you do not have to be willing and you along with everyone else saved could not on your own accept charity. No one likes to humble themselves to the point of having to humbly accept pure charity and you get out of accept charity, by making it, God’s doing?
I'm not explaining away anything, I'm merely saying the same thing Paul says, just in words that (hopefully) can be understood in these modern times.You seem to explain away all logical biblical supported explanation with: “He elects some to salvation and not others, because His election originates within Himself, not with people”.
You misrepresent what I said. You claimed that the prodigal son's selfish choice to go back was the same kind of selfish choice that people make to be saved. I'm saying it isn't. One involves human reasoning only, the other involves spiritual understanding. It is alike in the sense that the prodigal son had to have some hope of being received at home, at least in a low position, or else he would not have returned. But if people really are spiritually blind like the scripture says, they can't have any hope of being received by God unless God grants them that hope, as Jesus explains in John 6.We have the example of the prodigal son, people being invited to the banquet, people being told what they must do and people making choices, yet you say: “these do not apply”, since God decided what they would do ahead of time by giving some a good heart and not giving some that good heart.
I disagree. Paul clearly teaches that unregenerate people cannot understand the gospel in 1 Cor. 2. Therefore, "all mature adults" are not given that ability. Only those whom God has mercy toward, who are "raised to life" by Him have that ability, and since they also have the spiritual wisdom of hoping in Christ, they accept Gods charity.All mature adults given the ability to accept or reject God’s charity and thus fulfill an earthly objective explains why we spend time on earth, why people where allowed to sin, why this messed up world, why hell, why death, why satan roams around and why tragedies.
This is a straw man argument, and untrue. God is intimately involve in His creation, and part of how He works is through natural understanding and human works. The fact that He has to also bestow spiritual understanding and works for some to please Him, just shows that man naturally does not have that capacity. This is why God must give the gift of faith, since faith is that way to please God.This selection within God Himself, shows no need for humans to go through all this or for this world to be the way it is.
“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
Romans 2:4-5 NASB
How can someone be righteously judged for their stubbornness to repent if they have not been granted the ability to repent?
Show me where it says salvation comes before belief.Since belief in the gospel is the gift of God, "choosing to believe" is a description of what God has previously done in a person's heart, namely "raised them to life, and seated them in the heavenly places in Christ." Don't confuse the cause and effect.
TD
If we had been working on a comparison of proof texts there, you might have a point. As it happens, though, we weren't.Yeah I’ve noticed that to in many other threads we’ve debated in and said the same thing.
Sounds to me like you have your mind made up before any discussion. So why are you here? Your assessment is what is false, and you have no scripture to back it up, only your opinion. This response sounds like your "last word."I've already studied 4 years at BJU in the early eighties, and many years since reading behind the theologians.
Reformed doctrine is a false doctrine!
God saved me and everyone else when they yield to His call.
The notion that God forces His salvation on us, as you suggest, is totally and completely a departure from the Holy Scriptures. It is nonsense on the highest level!
God forces nothing on any man until he is judged, that judgement determines where you will spend eternity.
Ephesians 1:13 makes it clear that after you heard the Word of Truth and after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.Show me where it says salvation comes before belief.
"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
Not that you receive the spirit first and then believe.
Note he says "and will hate and betray one another" - this is obviously unbelievers who like to fellowship with believers because they are pushovers and friendly. Since Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them" (that is, true believers), and John concurs by saying "he that hateth his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him," Jesus is obviously talking about people who claim to believe, but have "no root in them." Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.Why are you jumping to a different book? The context of the Matthew passage is people who had faith falling away, totally different subject. Nice try, but no candy for you.
It says "sealed" not "born again." To make it the same is a false conclusion. Since in that context Paul states (Eph. 2:5) "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" he is making the action of spiritual rebirth an act of God. In this statement he even leaves out our faith and obedience, which defines being saved by grace a total act of God. And since faith is the gift of God, it cannot be our act or choice, therefore to be saved by grace through faith is a total package that comes from God, and "does not depend on the man who wills..."Show me where it says salvation comes before belief.
"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
Not that you receive the spirit first and then believe.
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