Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Well, I simply disagree with you. I just think you don't understand reformed theology. IMO it's the most positive, comforting, and God-glorifying system of understanding the scripture.In my humble understanding, soteriology as presented by reforming theologians isn't anything like Paul's soteriology when properly understood.
Why do you think we can choose after salvation, but have no choices before? We can in fact, choose to cease believing. We can in fact, become apostates.
Matthew 24:10 9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many
You and Dave keep saying this as if it means something. It's just your theologies human reason and is opposed by literally hundreds of verses that claim God is just in punishing people because they resist him.
Acts 7:51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.
No one is saying God doesn't do a spiritual work in people before they are saved. We call it conviction or preveniant grace. God can open my heart to pay attention and I am quite capable of closing my heart to his conviction. I regrettably have done it plenty of times before and after salvation. That verse certainly doesn't prove irresistible grace.
If you take off your calvinist glasses for an instant, you will realize how ridiculous that sounds. To say that Christ died for all, but at the same time, that a few are irresistibly chosen for salvation is bizarre and makes the verses that say "all" nonsense. If I tell you I am offering a gift to all the people along the road and yet I walk by 90 percent of them without even acknowledging their need, you certainly would think it was silly of me to say I offered my gift to all.
Notice it says "nor the desire or will of man" - but you can't see this, can you?You misapplied these scriptures in your dialogue with the other poster. John 1:11"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."
Jesus said to His disciples "you did not choose Me, but I chose you..." but you can't see this, can you?The other poster was correct in stating it was the followers of Christ that chose him using their free will, not God's determination. When you quoted vs 13 and claimed that was not true you misapplied the scripture. What was born from God's will and not human will was God's will allowing these who choose Christ to become, "children of God."
HOW DO WE KNOW FOR SURE? AND WHAT SINGLE SCRIPTURE SHOULD PUT AN END TO THIS DEBATE?
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."
I disagree with you on this matter, since the Bible I read says we are predestined. God's elect angels are elect because God's power kept them from falling into disrepute with the devil. As much as you want the Bible to say we are not predestined by God, it says we are. Just accept it.God desires all to repent and choose him. That's his will. But he does not do the determination about that choice for them. That God determines how intelligent humans, or angels, will chose regarding his sovereignty actually, as I said in the post above, contradicts scripture, is cruel and unforgiving, and has no logical reason to fit into God's purpose.
"No one needs understanding of theology to be saved. All we need is to know that Jesus died for our sins." (another poster's comment)
The Devil knows Christ died as a result of coming to Earth to save humans. False Christians know that also. See matthew chapter 7. There read just one place among many stating that it is not true that knowledge saves us.
"I'm saved because I know Christ died for my sins " is an apostate teaching. If it was true those scriptures I cited in Matthew chapter 7, Christ's own words, are a lie. So do we believe the false teaching or Christ? Also, all the epistles are a lie, if all we need to know is that Christ died for our sins to be saved.
The idea sounds nice, a tickling of the ears, for those who wish no accountability before God for themselves. But it is a teaching producing death to some ignorant people who believe it.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."
If your opinion is correct, then why is it that so many adult converts to the Holy Orthodox Church often remark on the sense of relief—not to say liberation—they felt on becoming acquainted with Orthodoxy’s teaching on salvation? We have heard testimonies to this point on many occasions. These folks, coming mainly from Protestant backgrounds, had previously thought about salvation in chiefly forensic terms. Perhaps these did not really "understand reformed theology" either? We might want to ask: if this is the case, is reformed theology even worth understanding.Well, I simply disagree with you. I just think you don't understand reformed theology. IMO it's the most positive, comforting, and God-glorifying system of understanding the scripture.
TD
Lol, so now you redefine faith to claim real Christians can't fall away. You are contradicting your own doctrine by saying faith is now only a set of doctrines when before it was God given. You can't fall away from what you never really had. Faith is belief in what we can't see, specifically Christ's death and resurrection. You can't have your cake and eat it too.So, Jesus then warns that many will "fall away" - that is, from "the faith" which is the set of doctrines and practices that Jesus and the apostles taught.
An unbeliever is invited to church, hears the gospel how Jesus died for their sins. He hears that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die on that cross that we may be saved from an eternal hell. He realizes by conviction of the Holy Spirit that he is a sinner and needs a Saviour. He says in his heart I'm going forward to be saved, and accepts Christ as His Saviour.So, if you were born again because of some decision you made -- that is, a free-will decision in which God did not actively participate in pushing or pulling you in that direction by virtue of His granting you spiritual wisdom to believe the gospel you heard, but He left you alone to make your own decision -- then you started out better than the guy next to you who made the wrong decision to not believe. You made the right choice, he made the wrong choice - right/wrong. You made the righteous choice to believe, therefore you were more righteous than the other guy, by virtue of your natural ability. If indeed you subscribe to this idea, then it is contrary to Paul's teaching about how we started out just as unrighteous as the other guy, in Rom. 3:10-18, and unable to make a righteous choice (Rom. 8:7).
TD
I can appreciate the feelings of those people. However, it is also true that Reformed Christianity produces in the convert that kind of reaction as well.If your opinion is correct, then why is it that so many adult converts to the Holy Orthodox Church often remark on the sense of relief—not to say liberation—they felt on becoming acquainted with Orthodoxy’s teaching on salvation?
How is this not free will and how is this decision any different from the other mans decision other than one chose to accept Christ and the other refused?
Yes, he was smarter. Did God give him a special gift that the other man didn't have a chance at to make that wise choice to choose Christ? No! He did not!Your story assumes free will (with different decisions being made by the two people), but the fact that they did different things as a result of hearing the Gospel doesn't prove that both or either of them could have made the opposite decision.
It is the case that you can argue the Gospel, explain it, and entreat a non-believer until you're blue in the face, and it makes so sense to him. But it clicks with the next person. Why? It would be shortsighted to say, simply, that you were persuasive with one of them but not the other or, if not that, that one was smarter than the other.
If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.Yes, he was smarter. Did God give him a special gift that the other man didn't have a chance at to make that wise choice to choose Christ? No! He did not!
If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.
However, it is perfectly obvious that some people can have the Bible read to them until the cows come home and Christianity explained over and over again...without it ever persuading them. And it's silly to think that only dumb people are being described here. Many determined and convinced atheists or members of other religions are well-educated and as smart as anyone else.
But on the other hand, and as every evangelist knows, for some people--regardless of education or native intelligence--a light goes off and they "get it!"
Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??
The fact remains that it's not a matter of God choosing one or the other, it's a matter of choice on the part of all individuals.If that is going to be your shield against the point I put to you for consideration, then we are at an impasse.
However, it is perfectly obvious that some people can have the Bible read to them until the cows come home and Christianity explained over and over again...without it ever persuading them. And it's silly to think that only dumb people are being described here. Many determined and convinced atheists or members of other religions are well-educated and as smart as anyone else.
But on the other hand, and as every evangelist knows, for some people--regardless of education or native intelligence--a light goes off and they "get it!"
Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??
Is it too much to contemplate that God made that possible??
That is what you want to believe. And I got that point several posts ago.The fact remains that it's not a matter of God choosing one or the other, it's a matter of choice on the part of all individuals.
What makes you think I haven't heard the theories (and that's what it is) and the scripture taken completely out of context?That is what you want to believe. And I got that point several posts ago.
I wish, however, that you were willing to at least hear the other side of the story, even if you were ultimately to decide against it. On this forum, we call these ideas "controversial" for a reason.
...the absence of any response to what I laid out for you other than to tell me you didn't like it.What makes you think I haven't heard the theories (and that's what it is) and the scripture taken completely out of context?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?