What's wrong with change?

[nyj]

Just an observation but no financial institution works as you describr, they will always charge enough interest to make a profit regardless of inflation.

If we loan money, individually, we are not financial institutions. You should never demand payment over and above what you are owed. In other words, you should not be going around loaning money to friends and family and expecting to make a profit.

If we agree to borrow money, we are obligated to pay what we agree to.

Financial institutions are not subject to the Catholic Church.

 

[geocajun]

During the Scholastic period of the Middle Ages, many issues, including the question of the morality of interest-taking, were subjected to more detailed analysis. On what specific principles is interest-taking moral or immoral? This was at the heart of the question of usury. Eventually the morality of interest-taking came to be understood as intrinsically bound up in the nature of the thing lent and the impact (or lack thereof) on the person lending it. It is immoral to take interest on the loan of a thing that is completely consumed by its use, for which one has no other use, and for which one incurs no loss by lending it.

THE RED HERRING OF USURY

By DAVID J. PALM
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9709fea3.asp

 

[Miss Shelby]

Circumstances can change though. I think some moral choices can't ever be effected by circumstance, such as torturing babies. That is always going to be immoral. But is slavery always immoral? St Paul said for masters to be kind to their slaves, but didn't say it was wrong, because in that culture it meant something different.

Yeah, slavery was typically thought as someone working to pay off a debt. That's a far cry from people being held slaves against their will.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

I gotta start reading through the whole thread before I stop and respond to one post. How embarrasing.

Michelle

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

If we loan money, individually, we are not financial institutions. You should never demand payment over and above what you are owed. In other words, you should not be going around loaning money to friends and family and expecting to make a profit.

If we agree to borrow money, we are obligated to pay what we agree to.

Financial institutions are not subject to the Catholic Church.

Yes, but a Catholic working at such an institution is not cooperating with any kind of a sin.

I'm honestly not getting the difference. I've read geo's article a few times now and I know the point they are trying to make is that the nature of money has changed. I suppose my brain is just not working.

 

[NewToLife]

I've read geo's article a few times now and I know the point they are trying to make is that the nature of money has changed. I suppose my brain is just not working.

Has the nature of money really changed though? I personally was thoroughly unconvinced by the article, it has always been possible to invest money, a man could always for instance spend money on infrastructure, building a new barn for example, and hence generate extra value, even buying seed to plant is and was a form of investment, now the mode of investments may have altered with time but the idea that the nature of money has altered in any fundamental way is simply wrong. Money is just as inert now as it always has been, which is to say that cash itself may be inert but it always has represented value and that value never has been.

The changes in money are simply improvements in technology, much the same can be seen in weaponry, it still performs the same function, the fact that we now have laser guided missiles instead of bronze swords simply doesnt alter the underlying nature of weaponry itself.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Has the nature of money really changed though? I personally was thoroughly unconvinced by the article, it has always been possible to invest money, a man could always for instance spend money on infrastructure, building a new barn for example, and hence generate extra value, even buying seed to plant is and was a form of investment, now the mode of investments may have altered with time but the idea that the nature of money has altered in any fundamental way is simply wrong. Money is just as inert now as it always has been, which is to say that cash itself may be inert but it always has represented value and that value never has been.

The changes in money are simply improvements in technology, much the same can be seen in weaponry, it still performs the same function, the fact that we now have laser guided missiles instead of bronze swords simply doesnt alter the underlying nature of weaponry itself.

I agree with you NewToLife. I was not convinced by that article, rather I was throughly confused and had to find some Tylenol.

 

[ChiRho]

Please…

Everything I posted is true. One has a choice in life- to accept what they are taught by those who have authority given to them from on high to teach or they can teach themselves.

And how do you know that they have been given that authority? Because they say so?

My original point was this...your post, being addressed to someone seeking assurance, seemed a bit harsh and circular in it's reasoning.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

And how do you know that they have been given that authority? Because they say so?

My original point was this...your post, being addressed to someone seeking assurance, seemed a bit harsh and circular in it's reasoning.

They have authority because the Bible says Jesus gave it to them.

 

[ChiRho]

They have authority because the Bible says Jesus gave it to them.

But if we cant understand Scripture (only the Magisterium can), then how do we know this?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

But if we cant understand Scripture (only the Magisterium can), then how do we know this?

Who says we can't understand Scripture? We are not to personally interpret Scripture in ways contrary to Dogmatically defined meanings of certain passages, but there is no rule about lay persons being unable to understand the Bible.

 

[ChiRho]

Who says we can't understand Scripture?

Defenders, the buck does stop at the magisterium, they alone can tell us what is true and what isn’t and you, have to assent because you have no other way other than God himself floating down telling you personally, that what she and the bible teaches are true. It stops at the magisteruim, you believe because you have faith, not because you have proof.

You have to accept that this Church who belongs to Christ – it’s his bride- isn't going to teach you anything wrong, if you don't, you'll just drive yourself crazy. The Church is not going to bend down to your lack of understanding of her; you have to just assent. Its called faith.

Her post says so.

But I do not intend on carrying this conversation on further (atleast not here). If you want to discuss this, then come to TCCL or pm me.

Back to your regularly scheduled Catholic posting...

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[ZooMom]

Her post says no such thing. Christ gave the authority to His Church to guide us, to be the 'pillar and foundation' of Truth. Remember what Phillip said to the Ethiopian. "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he answered, "No. How can I, unless someone teaches me?" We can read the Scriptures, we can understand them within our own limited scope, but we cannot dogmatically teach what is Truth without the guidance of the Church. Truth is objective, not relative. The Church will not break from the Truth simply because we have difficulty understanding or accepting it. We live by faith. Faith in Christ, in His promises. We look to the Church because Christ told us that no matter what, she would always be a beacon of Truth for us, even if her people individually are not always the best example of that Truth. We cannot trust to our own understanding for Divine Truth. We are too flawed. Like that old saying, "Don't look inside yourself for answers. You're the one that's confused!"

Peace be with you.

Sandy

 

[Benedicta00]

Her post says so.

But I do not intend on carrying this conversation on further (atleast not here). If you want to discuss this, then come to TCCL or pm me.

Back to your regularly scheduled Catholic posting...

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Excuse me but I was referring not to the scripture only, but the entire revealed revelation of God. The buck does stop at the Church, at some point in time one has to assent or they will drive themselves crazy when they start to ask how do we know which tradtions are true, because how do you even know the bible is true and God sent? Because the Church says so, like I said, all any of us including you has is the Church and we believe because the CHURCH says so. You just have to get over it and accept that. You can’t know if revelation that includes the scriptures are from God or not, unless the Church told you. Even Luther knew as much.

No, we can not read the scriptures in a vacume apart from the Church and limit truth to our understanding of it. This is why God gave us a Church with a magisterium, to teach us what he revealed to us. You cannot just pick up a bible and teach yourself outside of tradition. No one does that, not even Protestants, they have tradition they look to. Sermons, Pastors, spiritual writers.

 

[Benedicta00]

Her post says no such thing. Christ gave the authority to His Church to guide us, to be the 'pillar and foundation' of Truth. Remember what Phillip said to the Ethiopian. "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he answered, "No. How can I, unless someone teaches me?" We can read the Scriptures, we can understand them within our own limited scope, but we cannot dogmatically teach what is Truth without the guidance of the Church. Truth is objective, not relative. The Church will not break from the Truth simply because we have difficulty understanding or accepting it. We live by faith. Faith in Christ, in His promises. We look to the Church because Christ told us that no matter what, she would always be a beacon of Truth for us, even if her people individually are not always the best example of that Truth. We cannot trust to our own understanding for Divine Truth. We are too flawed. Like that old saying, "Don't look inside yourself for answers. You're the one that's confused!"

Peace be with you.

Sandy

Thanks ZooMom

 

[ChiRho]

Excuse me but I was referring not to the scripture only, but the entire revealed revelation of God. The buck does stop at the Church, at some point in time one has to assent or they will drive themselves crazy when they start to ask how do we know which tradtions are true, because how do you even know the bible is true and God sent? Because the Church says so, like I said, all any of us including you has is the Church and we believe because the CHURCH says so. You just have to get over it and accept that. You can’t know if revelation that includes the scriptures are from God or not, unless the Church told you. Even Luther knew as much.

No, we can not read the scriptures in a vacume apart from the Church and limit truth to our understanding of it. This is why God gave us a Church with a magisterium, to teach us what he revealed to us. You cannot just pick up a bible and teach yourself outside of tradition. No one does that, not even Protestants, they have tradition they look to. Sermons, Pastors, spiritual writers.

Although I would love to respond...I feel that it is best if I refrain.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[ZooMom]

Sorry, ChiRho, we really aren't trying to bait you, and thank you for trying so hard to respect the rules of the forum. If you would like to continue to discuss this, PM's are always acceptable and welcome.

 

[Benedicta00]

Why is usury no longer a sin? Honest question, in case you are skeptical.

It is still a sin on a individual level, it isn’t for banks, that is a business and it actually is a good thing (if you are a responsible person) we call it the American Dream. It makes it possible for us to buy houses and cars…

 

[ChiRho]

Sorry, ChiRho, we really aren't trying to bait you, and thank you for trying so hard to respect the rules of the forum. If you like to continue to discuss this, PM's are always acceptable and welcome.

Thanks. But I have tried the pm route and received no response.



Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

It is still a sin on a individual level, it isn’t for banks, that is a business and it actually is a good thing (if you are a responsible person) we call it the American Dream. It makes it possible for us to buy houses and cars…

Yes, I am aware Capitalism is built on human greed and usury.

It's not a sin for a Catholic to cooperate in a sin?