Baha'i What's Wrong with Baha'i?

[com7fy8]

@Arthra Thank you That is clear.

 

[PsychoeDial]

The idea that immoral teachings of Mohammad could be from God. Yes God might have used men who had multiple wives- possibly the only one close to being righteous in God's eyes, but to make a ruling that multiple wives is allowed, allowing divorce, marrying a child and having intercourse with her, etc.? We see Christ raise the bar of morality- even thinking of a sin as bad as carrying out the sin. Mohammad's ruling the result of his lust and greed.

And yet, Muhammad was a devil not a prophet from God. Bahai was a man, not a prophet of God.
The false teaching that comes out now in this age that claims the god of the Muslim , the god of Bahai, is the same God as that of the Jews and the Christians, is meant to deceive as scriptures foretold. And in this time period those false god's have their prophets still and who promote that falsehood that we are all one.

It takes but an inkling of thought to realize the lie that is being promoted across the world.

Muhammad was an unrepentant sinner of the lowest sort. Everything he taught was directly contrary to everything Jesus Christ taught and died for. Every last thing.
Therefore, for the God of Christ, when Christ was the Father, to be the entity that spoke to the archangel Gabriel who then spoke to Muhammad, to be one and the same, the God of the Jews and Christians, Yahweh, who was Jesus Christ, would have to be completely insane. Because hundreds upon hundreds of years AD after Jesus, he would have had to pick one of the most immoral Arabs on the planet to renounce everything he , as Jesus, died for hundreds upon hundreds of years prior.
Making salvation, redemption, atonement, justification, irrelevant today. And instead, making works and god's discretion as to whom he will bring to paradise, that of god alone.

 

[Arthra]

And yet, Muhammad was a devil not a prophet from God. Bahai was a man, not a prophet of God.
The false teaching that comes out now in this age that claims the god of the Muslim , the god of Bahai, is the same God as that of the Jews and the Christians, is meant to deceive as scriptures foretold. And in this time period those false god's have their prophets still and who promote that falsehood that we are all one.

First "PsychoeDial" try to get your nomenclature correct... When you wrote above: "Bahai was a man, not a prophet of God." A "Baha'i" is a believer, a follower of Baha'u'llah...someone who accepts Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. A Baha'i also accepts Jesus Christ, Moses and Abraham as Manifestations of God... "Baha'u'llah" is Arabic and is a title meaning "Glory of God".

The oneness of God is also a teaching of our Faith and we do not attack other religions such as Judaism or Christianity because they are from the same Divine Source.

One of the signal accomplishments of Prophet Muhammad was the virtual conversion of Arabia from polytheistic religion within a few short years to Islam. The fall of idol worship in the Kaaba within the lifetime of the Prophet was an accomplishment.

 

[PsychoeDial]

First "PsychoeDial" try to get your nomenclature correct... When you wrote above: "Bahai was a man, not a prophet of God." A "Baha'i" is a believer, a follower of Baha'u'llah...someone who accepts Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. A Baha'i also accepts Jesus Christ, Moses and Abraham as Manifestations of God... "Baha'u'llah" is Arabic and is a title meaning "Glory of God".

Bahai is derived from Baha'u'llah.
And he was a false prophet regardless. And it is heresy to a Christian to ever claim he was the manifestation of God.

The issue here is those that try to convert Christians from the Christ faith unto the false traditions that enter in. That's why many a Christian intends to afford a rebuttal when those efforts .

The oneness of God is also a teaching of our Faith and we do not attack other religions such as Judaism or Christianity because they are from the same Divine Source.

I'm aware of that, yes. That's why it is so very very evident when one here identifies as Bahai and does nothing but that. Attack Christians, Christianity, Jews, Judaism. They are false Bahai of course and yet their hate is very real. I'm sure you've encountered them or at least read their posts. Perhaps you should advise they drop the facade.

One of the signal accomplishments of Prophet Muhammad was the virtual conversion of Arabia from polytheistic religion within a few short years to Islam. The fall of idol worship in the Kaaba within the lifetime of the Prophet was an accomplishment.

We'll have to agree to disagree about accomplishments credited to Muhammad.

 

[Arthra]

Attack Christians, Christianity, Jews, Judaism. They are false Bahai of course and yet their hate is very real.

Please explain your comment "Psycho Dial"...

We have no animosity toward Christians... No hate messages or statements about devils are made by us ... No anti-Christian websites either.

The issue here is those that try to convert Christians from the Christ faith unto the false traditions that enter in.

The only response you'll see here is to those who seek to misrepresent us.

 

[PsychoeDial]

Please explain your comment "Psycho Dial"...

I can't name the member name here for obvious reasons of board rules. However, you know the one that claims they too are Bahai. And if you have encountered them or read their post record you'll see that they comport themselves the exact opposite of what you observed about a true Bahai respecting people of the book.

We have no animosity toward Christians... No hate messages or statements about devils are made by us ... No anti-Christian websites either.

I believe you. I'm speaking of a member here who hopes to represent your faith and does so with acidic venom and without exception in levying that tone toward Christians and Jews here. Either the identified Christian or Jew or the faiths of Christianity Judaism.

The only response you'll see here is to those who seek to misrepresent us.

I got that after a few days of reading their posts, yes. Unfortunately, they persevere as one of the most hateful self identified Bahai here. The only one I have seen before I met you here.
And they conflate Islam as part of Bahai faith and practice when they defend on that standpoint as well.

You are a refreshing change for what has for a very long time judging from their profile join date for what is Bahai here.

 

[Arthra]

Psychoe Dial,

I'm really not sure I know how to respond to your post above except to say if you feel someone has been venomous or acidic you should report the matter to your moderators or staff for them to resolve.

As for the Baha'i Faith we generally get along rather well with inter-faith groups in our communities and send representatives to the Parliament of the World's Religions that meetings regularly.

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

It's really not a debate issue here for the Christian.
Jesus said, he is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, God, but through him.
That's pretty much it.
Jesus was savior of the world. The only savior there is. Nothing else is comparable if someone wants to have eternal life in a better place after this one.

And good on you PsychoeDial for your remarks.
I'll just leave this here.
smaneck

 

[Arthra]

Thanks for your post MoonofIsaiah...

Jesus said, he is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, God, but through him.
That's pretty much it.

For Baha'is I think we see the above in context... We don't necessarily disagree with that.
Had I lived at the time of the dispensation of Jesus Christ we would see Jesus in just those terms..."...No one comes to the Father, God, but through Him." Of course we know Jesus mentioned the "Spirit of Truth" that would come after Him as well...

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

(King James Bible, John)

 

[Dale]

I have been told that the Bahai Faith is headquartered at Mount Carmel in Israel.

I have also been told that as much as 12% of the population of Iran is Bahai.

I have been told that one of the people who served as Prime Minister under the last Shah was a Bahai.

The Bahais are persecuted by Shiite Moslems in Iran. Being part of a religion with its headquarters in Israel doesn't help, although they would probably be persecuted anyway.

 

[Dale]

When I was younger, one of my roommates was a Bahai. One of the things I learned about the Bahai Faith is that unlike Christian churches, you don't choose what congregation you belong to. They assign you to the congregation that covers your town or neighborhood.



As I understand it, most of the meetings are secret. My roommate occasionally held a Bahai meeting in our apartment but I wasn't allowed to attend. This is certainly a great contrast to Christianity.



I am told that the Bahai Faith is democratic, they elect their leaders, except that no one is allowed to run for office. I have also been told that the the Bahai state assemblies can act in some sense as a legislature, laying down rules for Bahai members in that area to follow.

 

[Dale]

In post #45, Arthra said

<< Joseph Smith and Lao Tse are not considered Manifestations.

We do acknowledge there are prophets who are under the shadow of the Manifestations of God somewhat similar to how Christians regard the "minor Prophets" of the Bible. They are dependent prophets: >>



I will have to disagree. Christians make no theological distinction between major prophets and minor prophets. There are no “dependent prophets.” The only difference is that some prophets left behind a larger body of writing or sayings that has come down to us. We learn more from the major prophets because more of their sayings has come down to us. Whether a “major prophet” is really greater in God's eyes than a “minor prophet” is not something a mortal can know.

 

[Arthra]

I have been told that the Bahai Faith is headquartered at Mount Carmel in Israel.

I have also been told that as much as 12% of the population of Iran is Bahai.

I have been told that one of the people who served as Prime Minister under the last Shah was a Bahai.

The Bahais are persecuted by Shiite Moslems in Iran. Being part of a religion with its headquarters in Israel doesn't help, although they would probably be persecuted anyway.

Dale!

Thanks for your posts and I'll attempt to respond to you...

You are correct the administrative center of the Baha'i Faith is on the slopes of Mount Carmel overlooking Haifa..

The only figures of the number of Baha'is in Iran that I've heard is about 300,000. Since the Baha'is in Iran cannot meet or hold elections we have no administration in Iran and so we do not know how many Baha'is are in Iran.

I also heard that there were a few Baha'is in the administration of the Shah but I do not believe they had a major role.

As to your last comment yes Baha'is have been persecuted since the beginning of the Faith and thousands are believed to have been martyred and imprisoned. There are today at least around three hundred Baha'is imprisoned for their Faith... others have had their property confiscated and Baha'i youth are not permitted to complete higher education at the university level. Since Baha'is have been excluded from higher education they organized what we call the BIHE (Baha'i Institute of Higher Education) which is solely independent of the publically supported universities in Iran.. The reaction of the government has been to arrest BIHE professors and destroy educational materials.

It's true that our administrative center is in Haifa Israel.. Baha'is have been in the Holy Land since 1868 when they were imprisoned in Akka by the Ottoman authorities. Baha'is have been there long before the establishment of the state of Israel and we are not involved politically with the Israeli government or hold any offices in that country.

 

[Arthra]

Dale.. I've decided to respond to your post in italics below...

Dale wrote: When I was younger, one of my roommates was a Bahai. One of the things I learned about the Bahai Faith is that unlike Christian churches, you don't choose what congregation you belong to. They assign you to the congregation that covers your town or neighborhood.

Actually Dale the way it works is that there must be a minimum of nine adult believers in a given jurisdiction such as a city, town to form a Spiritual Assembly. The Local Spiritual Assembly which is elected annually is responsible for Baha'i activities in that town, city, etc. We just elected our Assembly in my town a few weeks ago on April 19th. So it's really not accurate to state as you wrote above: "They assign you to the congregation that covers your town or neighborhood."
We find that having elected administrative bodies for each civil jurisdiction keeps all the Baha'is in that area working together as a whole and builds unity!

Dale: As I understand it, most of the meetings are secret. My roommate occasionally held a Bahai meeting in our apartment but I wasn't allowed to attend. This is certainly a great contrast to Christianity.

I'm not familiar of course with what kind of meeting(s) your roommate had in your apartment but we do have what we call "Feasts" nineteen times a year which are for Baha'is and their families ... Non-Baha'is are not invited to attend but if they do we do not ask them to leave. A Feast is composed of three parts: Devotional, Administrative and Socializing. If a non-Baha'i attends we leave out the administrative part and just have the devotional and social part.

When the Spiritual Assembly meets it is a confidential meeting and only Baha'is are involved unless the non-Baha'i is there for a specific purpose.

Baha'i Holy Day activities are open to the general public as are study circles and devotional meetings.

Dale: I am told that the Bahai Faith is democratic, they elect their leaders, except that no one is allowed to run for office. I have also been told that the the Bahai state assemblies can act in some sense as a legislature, laying down rules for Bahai members in that area to follow.

You are correct .. Baha'is elect their local, national and international administrative bodies regularly... The House of Justice is elected every five years while the National Spiritual Assemblies and the Local Spiritual Assemblies are elected annually. There are some positions such as Counselors that are appointed and have limited terms and functions.

As to "...no one is allowed to run for office.." Baha'is are elected based on a plurality in Baha'i elections by secret ballot. We do not campaign or nominate. In civil elections we vote non-partisan and do not hold any partisan offices

In terms of "legislation" Baha'is on the local level don't "legislate" as such we follow a Constitution which was adopted by the Universal House of Justice in 1972 and Baha'i laws which were revealed by Baha'u'llah and clarified by Abdul-Baha. Later if you like I'll be happy to explain in more detail.

 

[Arthra]

In post #45, Arthra said

<< Joseph Smith and Lao Tse are not considered Manifestations.

We do acknowledge there are prophets who are under the shadow of the Manifestations of God somewhat similar to how Christians regard the "minor Prophets" of the Bible. They are dependent prophets: >>

I will have to disagree. Christians make no theological distinction between major prophets and minor prophets. There are no “dependent prophets.” The only difference is that some prophets left behind a larger body of writing or sayings that has come down to us. We learn more from the major prophets because more of their sayings has come down to us. Whether a “major prophet” is really greater in God's eyes than a “minor prophet” is not something a mortal can know.

Dale you are welcome to state what Christians believe.. I was stating what Baha'is believe that there are independent and dependent prophets. The concept of a Manifestation of God was covered I believe in some detail above and if you have any questions about it I'd be happy to oblige and respond.

Again for clarification we do not accept Joseph Smith or Laotse or Confucius as "prophets".

I've enjoyed our conversation thus far and feel free to raise any issues you wish!

- Art

 

[Dale]

I've been told that Baha Ullah wrote almost a hundred books that have never been translated into English. Is that still true? It doesn't make it any easier for an English-speaking person to know what the Bahai Faith is all about.

 

[Arthra]

I've been told that Baha Ullah wrote almost a hundred books that have never been translated into English. Is that still true? It doesn't make it any easier for an English-speaking person to know what the Bahai Faith is all about.

Dale,

Thanks for your post!

The Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are indeed vast but many of the essential Writings have been translated and are currently online in English translation. You can review and search the Writings at

http://reference.bahai.org/en/

As you scroll down on the left side of your screen you'll note there are also included Writings in Arabic and Farsi.

I would say that "Baha'u'llah and the New Era" is still one of the best overall introductions to the Faith and it's online at:

http://bahai-library.org/books/new.era/

One of the truly exciting aspects of being a Baha'i I can tell you is receiving the bounty of reading Writings that have been newly translated. Since I've been a Baha'i there have been several newly translated books including the Kitab-i-Aqdas, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Gems of Divine Mysteries, The Tabernacle of Unity. In the future there will be more...

There is a letter I recently read re. the untranslated material as follows:

"...much of the unpublished and untranslated material consists of day-to-day correspondence and personal guidance and encouragement, which is less likely to be of general interest. The World Centre is actively pursuing a publication programme for the as yet unpublished major works of the Central Figures of the Faith and Shoghi Effendi."

(at http://bahai-library.com/uhj_numbers_sacred_writings )

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Dale,

Thanks for your post!

The Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are indeed vast but many of the essential Writings have been translated and are currently online in English translation. You can review and search the Writings at

http://reference.bahai.org/en/

As you scroll down on the left side of your screen you'll note there are also included Writings in Arabic and Farsi.

I would say that "Baha'u'llah and the New Era" is still one of the best overall introductions to the Faith and it's online at:

http://bahai-library.org/books/new.era/

One of the truly exciting aspects of being a Baha'i I can tell you is receiving the bounty of reading Writings that have been newly translated. Since I've been a Baha'i there have been several newly translated books including the Kitab-i-Aqdas, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Gems of Divine Mysteries, The Tabernacle of Unity. In the future there will be more...

There is a letter I recently read re. the untranslated material as follows:

"...much of the unpublished and untranslated material consists of day-to-day correspondence and personal guidance and encouragement, which is less likely to be of general interest. The World Centre is actively pursuing a publication programme for the as yet unpublished major works of the Central Figures of the Faith and Shoghi Effendi."

(at http://bahai-library.com/uhj_numbers_sacred_writings )

We Christians have had many problems with different translations and their interpretation vis-a-vis the original languages.

Are there Authorised Translations seen as authoritive as to teachings in English? Or are the Farsi and Arabic originals considered the only authority? If so, are Bahai encouraged to learn Arabic and Farsi? Do one of these act as your liturgical language?

Likewise if a Bahai made a translation into another language, would these need to be authenticated by the House of Justice?

 

[Arthra]

We Christians have had many problems with different translations and their interpretation vis-a-vis the original languages.
Are there Authorised Translations seen as authoritive as to teachings in English? Or are the Farsi and Arabic originals considered the only authority? If so, are Bahai encouraged to learn Arabic and Farsi? Do one of these act as your liturgical language?
Likewise if a Bahai made a translation into another language, would these need to be authenticated by the House of Justice?

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith was the recognized Interpreter of the Baha'i Writings and translated many Baha'i Writings that are in print today. When translations are made today the translation work of Shoghi Effendi is the standard used for "authorized" translations. Usually a committee is assigned to review and approve the work.

Scholars are free to offer their own translations of Baha'i Writings say from Arabic or Farsi to other languages in what we call "provisional translations". While interesting these translations do not have the weight of an "authorized" translation.

There is no "liturgical language" in the Baha'i Faith and we have no rituals that require a special "liturgical language." Since the Faith began in the middle east and Arabic and Farsi were the primary languages naturally Baha'is especially with a Persian or Arabic background have an interest in these languages as well as scholars. Among other things we use a calendar that has Arabic words and of course an interest in these terms is natural. Persians will offer prayers at our Feasts from the Writings but authorized translations in other languages are also appropriate and accepted.

 

[Dale]

When I was younger, one of my roommates was a Bahai. One of the things I learned about the Bahai Faith is that unlike Christian churches, you don't choose what congregation you belong to. They assign you to the congregation that covers your town or neighborhood.



As I understand it, most of the meetings are secret. My roommate occasionally held a Bahai meeting in our apartment but I wasn't allowed to attend. This is certainly a great contrast to Christianity.



I am told that the Bahai Faith is democratic, they elect their leaders, except that no one is allowed to run for office. I have also been told that the the Bahai state assemblies can act in some sense as a legislature, laying down rules for Bahai members in that area to follow.

Are the meetings where leaders are elected closed to outsiders, to non-Bahais?
Perhaps that is why some Bahai meetings are held in private.