Baha'i What's Wrong with Baha'i?

[Quid est Veritas?]

Another question. Is there an official list of Manifestations? I assume all prophets aren't considered Manifestations. For instance Lao Tse or Joseph Smith or Guru Nanak?

What happens when the next Manifestation comes around? Is there a prophecy or something regarding him in Bahaism?

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

All someone has to do is research for themselves what is wrong with Bahai tradition. It's no more revelation than is Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, or other man made legacies.
In fact Bahai was diametrically opposed to all that Christianity stands for.

 

[com7fy8]

"No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers." For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God,

Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," Jesus says, in John 14:6. So, our Creator and Father's true unity is in Jesus, not only in some unity of beliefs and practices. God is personal - - - Father and Son and Holy Spirit > in family caring and sharing love. And man in God's image is a family being with more than one family person, but mankind has fallen from loving as one family!

So, in Jesus we are redeemed and corrected and cured and matured to love as God's family > we are talking about unity in family caring and sharing love, as the scriptures do emphasize in the New Testament. So, the unity of God's children is rooted in God's own love >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

"Confucius" by the way is not considered a Manifestation of God or a "Prophet" by Baha'is. He is considered a reformer who "...renewed morals and ancient virtues.."

I think I understand that you mean that acknowledged Bahá'í prophets and reformers each could introduce or renew more than Bahá'í believers have already been ready to accept.

But we acknowledge Jesus as being God's own Son, with whom our Father is so pleased that He has predestined His children "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

So, God is not only interested in worship and unity of beliefs and practices, but our Heavenly Father desires to have children who are pleasing and delighting to Him like Jesus is. This is part of why Jesus started the "Sermon on the Mount" with how-to-be things, in the "Beatitudes". Therefore, Jesus is all that God is about, for all that is truly good . . . not only reforming or adding, but conforming us to how His own Son is, and how Jesus in us has us submitting to our Father while loving one another and any and all people.

"....the spirit and attributes of divinity are mirrored in a new messenger and manifestation of God. Each revelator reveals as much revelation as the faithful are ready to receive."

I think you have made this clear.

But in Jesus we are already in the One who already has it all. As we grow in Him we more and more discover God . . . each of us personally. "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19) Jesus in us is all how God is, sharing how He is with us > we come to know how Jesus is, by becoming loving of any and all people, ourselves, in sharing with Him in us > Galatians 2:20. This is as much as each of us is "one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) This comes with growing, along with how our Heavenly Father personally corrects each of us > Hebrews 12:4-11, 1 John 4:17.

So God is this personal with every one who is His child > "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8) God's chastening brings this result, not only guilt-tripping and reform and changing behavior and policies.

the attempt which irresponsible followers of the Faith made on the life of the Shah.

Now, I think you have indicated that Bahá'u'lláh was Arab. And it seems ones of Arab groups of Islam had problems with Bahá'í people. So, to me this sounds like the kind of problem which Arabs of different religious commitments have had with one another, in their history, so that they have had various violent confrontations. And I understand that Jews have at different times in history been violently involved with Arabs > Jews and Arabs are related by being Semites, I understand; so I consider they and Arabs could be sibling rivals.

But Peter, even though he was a disciple of Jesus, used a sword to attack a man while the Jews came to arrest Jesus. And we see how in history ones claiming to be Christian have done various violent things which did not represent Jesus. But >

"Love does no harm to a neighbor," we have in Romans 13:10.

But Bahá'u'lláh does make it clear the assassins were "irresponsible". @Arthra But, Arthra . . . "irresponsible" does not necessarily mean doing what is evil. So, do you consider that "irresponsible" could be an understatement? Or, maybe in Arab it has a much stronger meaning, more like "evil".

And ones who favor Peter might say he was only "misguided". But we see how Peter, even after he had received the Holy Spirit, was even able to betray the Holy Spirit and the Gentile Christians whom the Holy Spirit had adopted > Galatians 2:11-13. So, we have had times when even our esteemed and God-approved leaders have done evil.

But, in any case, "Love does no harm to a neighbor". So, what matters is if we have found out how to love. Morals and beliefs alone can not make us able to love the way God desires. We need how God in us personally changes us and corrects us and cures our nature in His love. But the Bible has various writings about how to be pleasing to God, and how to be and relate in His love. This we have now. But this is all meant for how God does in us all He means by His word (Philippians 2:13) It is not do-it-ourselves discipline. In His love we have all that is of God's own nature >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

However, our Father includes us to help each other with this > Ephesians 4:14-15 < we all help each other; each of us is able to minister God's own grace, which includes however He favors us, plus how His love effects our nature and how in His peace (Colossians 3:15) we are personally guided "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) > 1 Peter 4:9-10 shows that each child of God has power to minister God's own grace.

So, this goes beyond only having revelations and reforms which humans might be capable of evaluating. God Himself in us is personal with each of us who are His children . . . now And He in us is our Example of how to be and how to love. And now His Holy Spirit corrects and grows and matures each of us.

So, this means that various religions are indeed incomplete, compared with who and how Jesus is and how He shares with us, in us.

But God has overall management of this world's people and religions. So, there is already unity in God's overall control of things, but it is not all of God's approval, but of His control for His purpose. He is keeping this evil world in some sort of order, by how wrong people specialize in different groups and having various national and other identities . . . but all while our Father is adopting ones to become His children with His Son Jesus.

Jesus is the One who suffered and died for us, and rose on the third day. This is not only a practice or belief, but what God has taken action to do to redeem us. And He is still so very busy ! ! !

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

I think it worthy of mentioning here and in fact reiterating the obvious. This is a community dedicated to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father. As Jesus said many a time in the Bible, Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Bahai faith, or any faith other than that of Christ, leads to damnation. What then is there to argue with those on that journey? Except to alert them to the community they decided to join and which is one dedicated not to their beliefs but rather to that of the one and only Savior of the world.

Are we to argue a false teaching is false? When the Lord of all did it for us over 2000 years ago?
I believe what we should do is ask the Bahai here, the Muslims, and the Pagans, and anyone not Christian, to avail themselves of the opportunity to turn their life over to Christ and save their own souls for eternity. Repent of their sins, be washed clean in the blood of the one and only lamb sacrifice, and start fresh as a newborn in the light and spirit of the holiest of spirits.

Arguing against a faith that is false, a vehicle that leads to eternal damnation, arguing those obvious faults when Jesus has already done so is futile. As is one who defends their journey to Hell when they cleave to a false religion that is the vehicle by which they shall arrive there and for all time outside the sight of God the Father.

Baha'ullah is in Hell now. Muhammad is in Hell now. Confucius, and all other false teachers are in Hell now.
Those who spend time in a Christian forum should realize they're here for a reason. They should avail themselves of the opportunity to save themselves, not argue why they should remain lost.

My two coppers worth.
Thanks for reading.

 

[Arthra]

Another question. Is there an official list of Manifestations? I assume all prophets aren't considered Manifestations. For instance Lao Tse or Joseph Smith or Guru Nanak?

What happens when the next Manifestation comes around? Is there a prophecy or something regarding him in Bahaism?

Thanks for the question Quid...

"Bahaism" was a term used by academics early in the twentieth century.. the term nowadays is "Baha'i Faith".

Baha'u'llah revealed that in no less than a thousand years there would be another Manifestation of God... It could be more than a thousand years.
He did reveal also the following: "the Book in which He sets forth the Laws of God for a Dispensation destined to endure for no less than a thousand years."
~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 1

A new Manifestation can rescind the laws of a previous one as when Jesus rescinded the "bill of divorce" in the Sermon on the Mount.

The following I think answers your first question above:

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade

These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest."[7]

Examples of these Manifestations include Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad, among many others. Bahá'ís believe that there have always been Manifestations of God in every age and that there always will be. The two most recent ones--the latest, but by no means the last--are the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'ís believe that Bahá'u'lláh is the Manifestation of God for this age.

............................

Joseph Smith and Lao Tse are not considered Manifestations.

We do acknowledge there are prophets who are under the shadow of the Manifestations of God somewhat similar to how Christians regard the "minor Prophets" of the Bible. They are dependent prophets:

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164

 

[Arthra]

Now, I think you have indicated that Bahá'u'lláh was Arab.

Thanks for your post "com7fy8"!

I don't recall indicating that Baha'u'llah "was Arab". Actually His family was Persian from the province of Nur near the Caspian Sea. Baha'is have been persecuted and continue to be repressed in the Middle East largely because we accept the Bab and Baha'u'llah as Prophets after Prophet Muhammad...

Here are some references:

http://www.christiantoday.com/artic...ncerns.for.irans.religious.minority/33484.htm

http://www.bahai.org/persecution/egypt/2005bicreport/historyofpersec/

https://fatwasforbahais.wordpress.c...speak-out-against-bahais-and-the-bahai-faith/

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Thanks for the question Quid...

"Bahaism" was a term used by academics early in the twentieth century.. the term nowadays is "Baha'i Faith".

Baha'u'llah revealed that in no less than a thousand years there would be another Manifestation of God... It could be more than a thousand years.
He did reveal also the following: "the Book in which He sets forth the Laws of God for a Dispensation destined to endure for no less than a thousand years."
~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 1

A new Manifestation can rescind the laws of a previous one as when Jesus rescinded the "bill of divorce" in the Sermon on the Mount.

The following I think answers your first question above:

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade

These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest."[7]

Examples of these Manifestations include Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad, among many others. Bahá'ís believe that there have always been Manifestations of God in every age and that there always will be. The two most recent ones--the latest, but by no means the last--are the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'ís believe that Bahá'u'lláh is the Manifestation of God for this age.

............................

Joseph Smith and Lao Tse are not considered Manifestations.

We do acknowledge there are prophets who are under the shadow of the Manifestations of God somewhat similar to how Christians regard the "minor Prophets" of the Bible. They are dependent prophets:

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164

So there is no specific list of Manifestations then such as there are for instance in Jainism for tirthankara?
How do you decide then whether someone was a Manifestation or a Follower prophet and not just a charlatan?
I assume everyone that claims to be a prophet is not accepted as such, so are we to establish authenticity merely by their being succesful or by what they taught? The problem here is that very disparate views are all accepted as Manifestations, so if we discover ancient tablets or something, how would you decide if they are of God or not?

 

[Arthra]

Well for Baha'is the Manifestations we accept for sure are in the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah... We acknowledge there were Manifestations in the past that we have no record of...

Generally a Manifestation reveals a Book or revelation suited for the time based on the needs of humanity and this could include new laws or ordinances. Spiritually the message is the same. We also believe that the original teachings of early Manifestations could have been lost or destroyed over the centuries.

 

[Alithis]

What's Wrong with Baha'i?
(Part One of Two)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

—Hebrews 1:1–2 NIV 1984

In the way that John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus, so a Persian prophet known as the Báb (the Gate) (1819–1850) prepared the way for Bahá'u'lláh (glory of God), the founder of Baha'i. While Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892) believed his messianic mandate was the unification of the world's religions, his message was fatally flawed.

First, Baha'is believe that Bahá'u'lláh is a greater manifestation of God than Moses, Muhammad, or the Christian Messiah. Thus the Baha'i thrust toward the unification of all religions is primed for failure. Islam, the mother religion of Baha'i would not and could not consider Bahá'u'lláh as a prophet of God greater than Muhammad. Likewise, Christianity is committed to Christ as "the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6, emphasis added; cf. Acts 4:12).

Furthermore, Baha'i teaches that every few hundred years the spirit and attributes of divinity are mirrored in a new messenger and manifestation of God. Each revelator reveals as much revelation as the faithful are ready to receive. As such, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, Christ, Muhammad, and Krishna all paved the way toward the ultimate revelations personified in the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. The fallacy, of course, is that the revelators and their revelations directly conflict with one another. For example, Moses was fiercely monotheistic, whereas Zoroaster and Krishna were polytheistic. Likewise, the Qur'an condemns Christ's claim to be the Son of God as the unforgivable sin of shirk. Logically, the messengers and manifestations can all be wrong, but they can't all be right.

CRI Source:http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/whats-wrong-with-bahai-2/


There's many a false teaching in the world today. Another inroad of that agenda is to claim that certain non-Christian traditions outside the Judeo-Christian scope worship the same God.
Not true. I hope this article posted invoking the Fair Use standard helps further a discussion on this important issue in these chaotic times. God Bless.

from a bible perspective .. what is right with it .. answer : nothing .

 

[Arthra]

from a bible perspective .. what is right with it .. answer : nothing .

Well thanks for your comment Alithis...! Let me just say here that I bear no grudges against Christians and respect your faith. We have no Baha'i sites that attack Christianity or demean it.

 

[Alithis]

Well thanks for your comment Alithis...! Let me just say here that I bear no grudges against Christians and respect your faith. We have no Baha'i sites that attack Christianity or demean it.

The promotion of any of your teachings is a demonic attack against the truth of the lord Jesus in order to lead people away from the salvation of god that they may perish .

 

[Arthra]

Alithis.. Thanks for your post. I turn the other cheek now...

 

[Alithis]

good for you .if you suffer for doing wrong that is as it is meant to be .
it is not me you will answer to but you will stand before the most high god and he will ask an account of why you refused the salvation he has so graciously offered you and thought yourself to know better then god and so became as a god unto yourself in rebellion against him.

God has spoken from his heart and his WORD .. the same Word by which he created the heavens and the earth ,became flesh and his name is Jesus . the express manifestation of god to us . and he was taken in his sinless innocence and brutally beaten and whipped and nailed to a tree to become the curse of sin on our behalf for OUR sin ,he lay in the ground three days and three nights and rose again from the dead in victory over son and death that who ever believes in him and proves they do by obedience ,might not perish but have everlasting life

our only acceptable response to this in order that the price he paid may be credited to out account is to...
repent
be baptised (buried)in his death and resurrection by water
and receive the holy ghost (who is eternal life)

there is NO other way to be saved

 

[Arthra]

your teachings is a demonic attack against the truth of the lord Jesus in order to lead people away from the salvation of god that they may perish .

That's why I turn the other cheek Alithis... Recall that they claimed Jesus drove out demons by invoking Beelzebub. (Luke 11:15).

I have no animus against Jesus.. I accept Him.

 

[Alithis]

That's why I turn the other cheek Alithis... Recall that they claimed Jesus drove out demons by invoking Beelzebub. (Luke 11:15).

I have no animus against Jesus.. I accept Him.

you lump with all others and thus lower him and show contempt -you accept him you say.. but you do not bow to him .
God has spoken from his heart and his WORD .. the same Word by which he created the heavens and the earth ,became flesh and his name is Jesus . the express manifestation of god to us . and he was taken in his sinless innocence and brutally beaten and whipped and nailed to a tree to become the curse of sin on our behalf for OUR sin ,he lay in the ground three days and three nights and rose again from the dead in victory over sin and death that who ever believes in him and proves they do by obedience ,might not perish but have everlasting life

our only acceptable response to this in order that the price he paid may be credited to out account is to...
repent
be baptised (buried)in his death and resurrection by water
and receive the holy ghost (who is eternal life)

there is NO other way to be saved

 

[Arthra]

you lump with all others and thus lower him and show contempt -you accept him you say.. but you do not bow to him .

Truth is Alithis.. again I show no "contempt" what so ever but you are free to assume what you will.

May God richly bless you. I leave you in His care.

 

[simplegifts]

What's Wrong with Baha'i?
(Part One of Two)
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

—Hebrews 1:1–2 NIV 1984

In the way that John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus, so a Persian prophet known as the Báb (the Gate) (1819–1850) prepared the way for Bahá'u'lláh (glory of God), the founder of Baha'i. While Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892) believed his messianic mandate was the unification of the world's religions, his message was fatally flawed.

First, Baha'is believe that Bahá'u'lláh is a greater manifestation of God than Moses, Muhammad, or the Christian Messiah. Thus the Baha'i thrust toward the unification of all religions is primed for failure. Islam, the mother religion of Baha'i would not and could not consider Bahá'u'lláh as a prophet of God greater than Muhammad. Likewise, Christianity is committed to Christ as "the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6, emphasis added; cf. Acts 4:12).

Furthermore, Baha'i teaches that every few hundred years the spirit and attributes of divinity are mirrored in a new messenger and manifestation of God. Each revelator reveals as much revelation as the faithful are ready to receive. As such, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, Christ, Muhammad, and Krishna all paved the way toward the ultimate revelations personified in the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. The fallacy, of course, is that the revelators and their revelations directly conflict with one another. For example, Moses was fiercely monotheistic, whereas Zoroaster and Krishna were polytheistic. Likewise, the Qur'an condemns Christ's claim to be the Son of God as the unforgivable sin of shirk. Logically, the messengers and manifestations can all be wrong, but they can't all be right.

CRI Source:http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/whats-wrong-with-bahai-2/


There's many a false teaching in the world today. Another inroad of that agenda is to claim that certain non-Christian traditions outside the Judeo-Christian scope worship the same God.
Not true. I hope this article posted invoking the Fair Use standard helps further a discussion on this important issue in these chaotic times. God Bless.

The idea that immoral teachings of Mohammad could be from God. Yes God might have used men who had multiple wives- possibly the only one close to being righteous in God's eyes, but to make a ruling that multiple wives is allowed, allowing divorce, marrying a child and having intercourse with her, etc.? We see Christ raise the bar of morality- even thinking of a sin as bad as carrying out the sin. Mohammad's ruling the result of his lust and greed.

 

[Arthra]

The idea that immoral teachings of Mohammad could be from God. Yes God might have used men who had multiple wives- possibly the only one close to being righteous in God's eyes, but to make a ruling that multiple wives is allowed, allowing divorce, marrying a child and having intercourse with her, etc.? We see Christ raise the bar of morality- even thinking of a sin as bad as carrying out the sin. Mohammad's ruling the result of his lust and greed.

Having more than one wife was allowed you understand in the Bible and the patriarchs of old had more than one wife. What was revealed in the Qur'an 4:3 was a limit of the number of wives and the following proviso which is often ignored by critics of the revelation of the Qur'an...as follows:

"But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]."

As to the age of Aisha which I believe you may be referring to above... No one knows for sure how old she really was as there was no universal calendar in use in Arabia at the time and the Hadith ascribing her age was collected a few centuries afterwards.

You should also understand that this thread or "debate" is about the Baha'i Faith and in our Faith monogamy only is enjoined:

"Know thou that polygamy is not permitted under the law of
God, for contentment with one wife hath been clearly stipulated."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 205)

Also the minimum age for marriage after consent of the parents is fifteen years of age.

 

[com7fy8]

@Arthra And our Apostle Paul says, "let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband," in 1 Corinthians 7:2.

So . . . by the way, Arthra, I know you might consider Jesus to be a Manifestation and what He says and His attributes to be divine; but how much do you consider the writings of Paul to be manifesting God?

 

[Arthra]

We consider Paul the Apostle as follows:

Think of Judas Iscariot; he began well, but remember his end! On the other hand, Paul, the Apostle, was in his early life an enemy of Christ, whilst later he became His most faithful servant. How then can we flatter ourselves and despise others?

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 148)

Saint Paul, the great Apostle, said: "We all, with open face beholding as in a mirror the glory of God, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 24)

"Christ's Teachings were established largely through the firmness
of Paul."
(Pilgrim Notes, Ten Days in the Light of Akka)