What's wrong with astrology?

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Before becoming EO, was deep in astrology and over a very long period of life. Have abandoned practicing astrology in the sense of doing forecasts and interpretation, but still have strong lingering questions as to why the Church prohibits it. Hoping for more information, and preferably source material such as canons, writings from the Church fathers, etc.

I guess I struggle with knowing that, basically, astrology does work at a certain level, not perfectly but much more often than it should if it were purely superstition or imagination or even supernatural demonic influence. I've seen it work, and I can't pretend I haven't and just forget about it.

Is it wrong to notice there are existing patterns and cycles between the celestial bodies and events/people on earth? In that vein, how does the Church in modern times distance itself from astrology but accept meteorology (prediction based on observing repetitive natural behavior and patterns) or something like predicting sun spots/solar cycles?

I've read that in Byzantium there were discussions and distinctions made between legitimate astrology and "bad" astrology as practiced by magicians; was astrology banned because it suffered a bad reputation from the people who practiced it rather than the practice itself?

Nearly all modern astrology is absolutely garbage. But, if serious people who knew what they were doing did proper research and showed patterns and cycles that produce predictable and reliable results, if it were shown to be more "scientific" than it is currently believed to be, would the Church accept that?

Why are there zodiac sign wheels in the early churches?

Why does practicing astrology prohibit someone from receiving Holy Communion?

A thing I hear from priests (etc.) is that astrology is prohibited because God is bigger than the celestial bodies and therefore our faith and observance belongs to Him. True, but I don't see yet how that is different than meteorology and the like. God is also bigger than the 7 day forecast our tv anchor give us, and He could certainly change the cycles of solar maximum and minimum, but as it is He allows certain natural rhythms to exist and govern our lives to a degree (in the sense that a degree of our lives are affected by weather, for example).

Trying to understand.

 

[bèlla]

Most people don't stake their future on the weatherman's forecast. We're meant to place our hope in God and look to Him for guidance. Not the stars or other forms of divination.

~Bella

 

[Aussie Pete]

Before becoming EO, was deep in astrology and over a very long period of life. Have abandoned practicing astrology in the sense of doing forecasts and interpretation, but still have strong lingering questions as to why the Church prohibits it. Hoping for more information, and preferably source material such as canons, writings from the Church fathers, etc.

I guess I struggle with knowing that, basically, astrology does work at a certain level, not perfectly but much more often than it should if it were purely superstition or imagination or even supernatural demonic influence. I've seen it work, and I can't pretend I haven't and just forget about it.

Is it wrong to notice there are existing patterns and cycles between the celestial bodies and events/people on earth? In that vein, how does the Church in modern times distance itself from astrology but accept meteorology (prediction based on observing repetitive natural behavior and patterns) or something like predicting sun spots/solar cycles?

I've read that in Byzantium there were discussions and distinctions made between legitimate astrology and "bad" astrology as practiced by magicians; was astrology banned because it suffered a bad reputation from the people who practiced it rather than the practice itself?

Nearly all modern astrology is absolutely garbage. But, if serious people who knew what they were doing did proper research and showed patterns and cycles that produce predictable and reliable results, if it were shown to be more "scientific" than it is currently believed to be, would the Church accept that?

Why are there zodiac sign wheels in the early churches?

Why does practicing astrology prohibit someone from receiving Holy Communion?

A thing I hear from priests (etc.) is that astrology is prohibited because God is bigger than the celestial bodies and therefore our faith and observance belongs to Him. True, but I don't see yet how that is different than meteorology and the like. God is also bigger than the 7 day forecast our tv anchor give us, and He could certainly change the cycles of solar maximum and minimum, but as it is He allows certain natural rhythms to exist and govern our lives to a degree (in the sense that a degree of our lives are affected by weather, for example).

Trying to understand.

Astrology is an attempt to predict the future by non-natural means. Weather forecasting is educated guesswork based on observations, not on patterns supposedly written in the stars. God forbade astrology. Just because something works does not make it right. The magicians in the court of Pharaoh could make snakes appear as well as Moses. There is tremendous power in the Satanic realm, all intended to deceive and lead Christians astray.

What spiritual benefit is there in astrology? I've had conversations with Christians who claim to follow the "good" astrology. I've not found them to be any more Christlike than any other Christian. If in doubt, leave it alone.

 

[archer75]

I don't doubt that natural rhythms exist and are part of our lives on earth, no doubt in ways we don't understand.

That said, what is called astrology today is simply garbage, period.

I don't know about Byzantine practices, but I would guess what was tolerated was closer to what is now astronomy (an actual science) than astrology (fakeness).

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Most people don't stake their future on the weatherman's forecast.

~Bella

They do if it's something such as a hurricane, etc.

 

[archer75]

Also, sorry to be so blunt, but astrology actually doesn't work.

 

[bèlla]

They do if it's something such as a hurricane, etc.

Exercising wisdom in the face of peril is necessary. Relying on charts to provide insight into yourself and what life will bring is another matter. You're making a choice to look elsewhere for the answers. This often occurs because many prefer the instant gratification divination provides. When in doubt, consult a chart, do a spread, have a reading, etc. You're drinking from the same cup. That's hell's domain. If you want to adhere to his plan. Keep it up.

~Bella

 

[archer75]

Divination of any kind might as well be divination of any other kind. Stars, open a book to random page, flip a coin, throw some sticks. I can't speak for the clergy, but consdering how divination actually works (semi-random sensory input that is interpreted by your unconscious mind), I can see why it'd be forbidden: nothing good can come of it, and it encourages you to turn off your attention to yourself. To relax the "watch on your heart." Because that's the only way it works. That is, YOU do the work of making associations, ignoring things, etc., and then coming up with something that seems plausible. But in imagining that you're doing some kind of problem set that's "objective" (after all, the stars are cool and a suitable object of actual study), you set down the moral guards you should maintain.

A weather report is not astrology. A weather report is a popular, practical "memo" based on science.

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

I don't doubt that natural rhythms exist and are part of our lives on earth, no doubt in ways we don't understand.

That said, what is called astrology today is simply garbage, period.

I don't know about Byzantine practices, but I would guess what was tolerated was closer to what is now astronomy (an actual science) than astrology (fakeness).

I agree completely with modern astrology being garbage, period.

As for Byzantium, here's one example I found, which shows something that is confusing from a modern standpoint: bad astrology is bad astrology, period; some people tried to get "good" astrology accepted, which it wasn't and in fact the Church doubled down on it; but the Church also didn't always recognize astronomy as being OK either?

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Exercising wisdom in the face of peril is necessary. Relying on charts to provide insight into yourself and what life will bring is another matter. You're making a choice to look elsewhere for the answers. This often occurs because many prefer the instant gratification divination provides. When in doubt, consult a chart, do a spread, have a reading, etc. You're drinking from the same cup. That's hell's domain. If you want to adhere to his plan. Keep it up.

~Bella

I haven't "kept it up", I've actually said I quit it out of obedience when I still had my doubts. I'm trying to rid myself of these doubts, which is why I'm asking for source material from the Church (early fathers or canons or the like) so I have clarity. Should I be dishonest and pretend I don't struggle with something? Otherwise, I agree with your post.

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Divination of any kind might as well be divination of any other kind. Stars, open a book to random page, flip a coin, throw some sticks. I can't speak for the clergy, but consdering how divination actually works (semi-random sensory input that is interpreted by your unconscious mind), I can see why it'd be forbidden: nothing good can come of it, and it encourages you to turn off your attention to yourself. To relax the "watch on your heart." Because that's the only way it works. That is, YOU do the work of making associations, ignoring things, etc., and then coming up with something that seems plausible. But in imagining that you're doing some kind of problem set that's "objective" (after all, the stars are cool and a suitable object of actual study), you set down the moral guards you should maintain.

A weather report is not astrology. A weather report is a popular, practical "memo" based on science.

I liked this, thank you!

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Just because something works does not make it right... If in doubt, leave it alone.

This is true, and I really do try to leave it alone, I just struggle with the "just because it works doesn't make it right" part.

 

[bèlla]

I haven't "kept it up", I've actually said I quit it out of obedience when I still had my doubts. I'm trying to rid myself of these doubts, which is why I'm asking for source material from the Church (early fathers or canons or the like) so I have clarity. Should I be dishonest and not pretend I struggle with something? Otherwise, I agree with your post.

Divination is mentioned in the bible in the Old and New Testament. Have you prayed about your feelings? Has this always been a struggle or resurfaced recently?

~Bella

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Bella,

It always has been a struggle, it might always be? I don't practice it anymore but it's not easy to stop remembering it and questioning my own firsthand experience with it. I suppose you could say it's like alcoholism, you can quit it forever but you'll probably fight the urge forever. I spent my life doing something, so it's kinda ingrained in my little brain I guess? I've spoken with my priest about it, he basically says what everyone here says: "it's bad, don't do it, it's not even real" and I try to accept it but I wonder if he says that because he doesn't actually know why it's an issue? I don't blame him for not knowing everything about everything the Church has taught over the millenia, but I feel it would really help me a lot to see for myself the actual argument that the Church has made against it so that I have that clarity. So that when these persistent questions keep arising - "but what about this and that, you seen such and such for yourself" I can have the information I need to articulate a position against it, if that makes sense?? Like a doctor doesn't just say "alcohol is bad, knock it off" he provides information to enable the alcoholic to fight?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Divination and astrology opens one up to demonic control - yes it 'works' when it is in Satan's interests to achieve an outcome. Stay well away.


Is 47:13 You are wearied from your many counsels. So let them stand and save you— the astrologers who observe the stars, who monthly predict your fate. 14 Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. There will be no coals to warm them or fire to sit beside.…

 

[Sketcher]

Well, for one, the signs are off: Astrology: Why Your Zodiac Sign and Horoscope Are Wrong | Live Science.

Also, if you have read St. Augustine's Confessions, he wrote about astrology and how it came up short. The most striking reason to me is when he told a story one of his friends gave him. IIRC, the friend grew up in a wealthy house, and his father and another wealthy friend were very much into astrology. It came to pass that one of their wives became pregnant at the same time as one of the other's slaves. During the pregnancies, they measured the exact distance between their houses, they measured exactly which sign would be on which house and when, and they made arrangements to send runners to the other's house as soon as one of the babies was born. As it turned out, the runners both left the same day and met right in the middle with the news, so it was determined that the wife and the slave gave birth at the same time. Therefore, both the slave son and the trueborn son would have been born under the same sign. And did they both have the same fortune in life? No! The trueborn son enjoyed his life of privilege, and the slave endured a harsh and unforgiving life.

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Well, for one, the signs are off: Astrology: Why Your Zodiac Sign and Horoscope Are Wrong | Live Science.

Also, if you have read St. Augustine's Confessions, he wrote about astrology and how it came up short. The most striking reason to me is when he told a story one of his friends gave him. IIRC, the friend grew up in a wealthy house, and his father and another wealthy friend were very much into astrology. It came to pass that one of their wives became pregnant at the same time as one of the other's slaves. During the pregnancies, they measured the exact distance between their houses, they measured exactly which sign would be on which house and when, and they made arrangements to send runners to the other's house as soon as one of the babies was born. As it turned out, the runners both left the same day and met right in the middle with the news, so it was determined that the wife and the slave gave birth at the same time. Therefore, both the slave son and the trueborn son would have been born under the same sign. And did they both have the same fortune in life? No! The trueborn son enjoyed his life of privilege, and the slave endured a harsh and unforgiving life.

The Live Science thing doesn't bother to explain that astrology doesn't measure the sky the same as astronomy, and therefore their argument only shows they didn't bother doing research. (I don't expect anyone here to know the difference, I'm just saying it doesn't prove anything as far as an argument against astrology because they obviously don't understand astrology in the first place).

BUT, I hadn't heard the St. Augustine story before, thank you very much for that. I will research him much further!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I apologize if my post is unwelcome here, as I am not Orthodox; but I don't think my answer will be at odds with Orthodox teaching.

God wants us to put our trust in Him and what He has provided for us.

Astrology is a problem for several reasons:

1) It promotes the false doctrine of Fatalism, that humans are bound by fate or destiny, and that these things are written in the stars--who you are, what you will do, what you will be has all been determined because of the arbitrary location of giant balls of burning hydrogen as they appear to us here on earth.

2) The stars and all things in the heavens are the created work of God. There is nothing magical about the stars, planets, or anything out in the universe. The universe is God's good handiwork, and so we can be amazed by what God has done. But we don't turn away from the Creator to the created. But rather, the creation points us to the Creator of all, that we might magnify Him.

3) It is pure nonsensical woo. Astrology is nothing but pure hokum. It, like all woo, is utterly bereft of anything meaningful. It's no different than thinking you can point a stick at the ground and magically find water, or that there's some sort of mystical energy in crystals, or any manner of pure flummery.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OrthodoxWanderer]

Why the use of astrological symbols in Orthodox churches? This is one example but there's many more

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why the use of astrological symbols in Orthodox churches? This is one example but there's many more

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As a graphical representation of what humans see in the heavens, the constellations aren't bad. It would be erroneous to conflate a benign use of the constellations with an approval of astrological woo.

-CryptoLutheran