What's up with the French?

Some yes and other no. Some are just the natural passing of history. You could just as much say Rome disappeared because it overthrew the Greek empire etc -I think you'll find more than just one factor involved.

Besides, what does it mean "no longer a world power" -poor old Russia didn't even get a chance to come down out of the north and attack Israel, and it's already in the process of breaking up. I see some now are advocating China as the next big bogy-man against Israel LOL (talk about a persecution complex) The only reason Israel is still around is they're a bunch of good fighters -they've had to be, it's in their blood.

davo

Love, not hate.
Peace, not Armageddon.

"Woe to the Rich" said Jesus in John 6:24.

US citizens are far wealthier than were Roman citizens.

Palestine suicide bombers were going recently into teenage hangouts & killing children such as at barmitzvahs, pizzerias, malls.
Israel's only options were: allow it to continue, or try to stop it. so now they are try ing to stop it & somehow it's their fault for not allowing it to continue.
A few years ago they offered Palestine much land, etc & it was not acceptable to arafat because he doesnt think israel has a right to exist period. THe Arabs want all of Israel, not just part of it.
The French are persecuting Christians as we speak. They recently passed laws outlawing American churches/denominations.

of course I don t expect Israel to allow suicde bombers to continue without fighting back.
I am a fighter myself. one of the clans i am a member of was one of the most warlike clans of the Highlands. Plus i am german also
frankly i am glad to see Jew fighting back. i get so frustrated when i see how they didn t fight the Nazis. of course they had been trained for years to go quietly and not make waves.

I agree. Israel is doing exactly what we did when the terrorists attacked us. They go in, find the culprit or whoever organized the attack of suicide bombing and take them out.

Israel has been putting up with this for many many years and there response is no different than anyone elses would be. It's a serious double standard to say "Israel should pull out of the West Bank," but then say GO USA when we go into Afganistan to kick out the Taliban and Al qaida network.

Can someone explain to me Pres Bush's and Tony Blair's reason behind asking Israel to pull out of Palestine?

What could he possibly be trying to accomplish besides a fake peace and breed contempt amognst the Israelies?

Israel is not considered as big a power house copared to the US but I sure wouldn't want to scrap with them.

They want Israel to pull out of Palestine because Israel is going to get wiped out if they dont. Right now, all of Islam wants Israel destroyed. (war of Ezekial) Anyone who supports Israel will also be destroyed. The Islamic nation has spoken.

What I have understood is that anyone who tries to overtake Jerusalem other than Israel will be destroyed. In Ezekial it actually says that anyone interfering with Israel in taking back it's divinely inherent land will be condemned and made barren.

What is your source? Maybe I misinterpretted Ezekial and Joel?

God BLess

Debbie, the French probably passed a law against american denominations to stop cultural imperialism, not to stop christianity as such. I lived in Europe for three years and there has been a quick rise of american style churches that are not really culturally relevant to the countries they go to but have a lot of financial backing from the US which has forced local churches out of their buildings. As for the protests against Israel in Europe I agree with the person who said they always go for the underdog. The majority of the protesters would not be evangelical christians and as such would not care about the biblical land claim perspective. All they see is people being killed and that's what they are protesting against. God looks on the Israeli soldier who kills someone just the same as he looks on a sucicide bomber, neither turned the other cheek.

While, the American interference in the Middle East conflicts is purely economic, one cannot say that Bush asking the Israelies to pull out of Palestine as a step in the right direction.

Peace is always something that we should all strive to achieve but to take the side of group of people that hate the US simply because it is a free and Christian society is wrong. I understand that you have a diferent perspective being from New Zealand and everything.

God Bless

"Peace is always something that we should all strive to achieve but to take the side of group of people that hate the US simply because it is a free and Christian society is wrong. I understand that you have a diferent perspective being from New Zealand and everything."

God Bless [/B][/QUOTE]

Who is taking the side of what group of people that hate the US? If you are talking about the Palestines hating the US because it is a free and Christian society that is not the case. They hate the US because they support Israel period. They do not see western countries as being free but as being immoral. Unlike westerners who think in indiviual terms many middle eastern cultures see things in groups. You do not live for yourself, you live for the group (which explains some of the mindset of the suicide bombers). So when they hear the US (and other western nations) saying 'we are a christian nation' but see all the porn and stuff in the movies from the west they don't seperate the two. Neither do they seperate the citizens of the US from the policies of the US government, which is why they did not care that it was civilans in the World Trade Center that they were killing. In Islam there is no seperation of church and state, it is all one. Another reason for them to believe the policies of the US government must also be the policies of the Christian church. I did some anthropology classes in my missions training and it was very helpful to try and take a look from the view of the other side as to how they see us.

the French probably passed a law against american denominations to stop cultural imperialism, not to stop christianity as such. I lived in Europe for three years and there has been a quick rise of american style churches that are not really culturally relevant to the countries they go to but have a lot of financial backing from the US which has forced local churches out of their buildings.

Click to expand...

a law about American Denominations? How would that work? I don't imagine it would be the same as breaking up a monopoly. I have never heard of any church forcing another local church out of it's building. Can you tell me when this has happened? I'm sure that it couldn't possibly be the goal of a church to put another one out of business. No church I have ever gone to works like that.

Also how can a church not be culturally relevant? A church is the house of God. Even if it was possible for a church to be culturally irrelevant, who cares? We are not Christians because it's popular or fits our lifestyle. We are Christians because we desire to live our lives for and in fear of God. Could you elaborate on these statements because I have to be misunderstanding you.

God looks on the Israeli soldier who kills someone just the same as he looks on a sucicide bomber, neither turned the other cheek.

Click to expand...

Tell me what you would do if you were the leader of a country and someone kept on coming in and killing innocent people. Would you just say "Oh well, turn the other cheek." Absolutley not. THere is a difference between being taken advantage of or hurt and killing innocent people. Someone who does that must be punished.

I do not see how soldiers can be held accountable for killing someone in battle. It isn't the same as the "eye for and eye" that you seem to be relating it too. When the US was attacked back in September, should we have just let it go?

God Bless

Because in Europe most evangelical churches do not meet in actual church buildings (lack of space to build new ones) most meet in halls. Foreign churches coming in with alot of money are able to rent these halls at more than the asking price, meaning many local churches (who have not much finance) are unable to match the big money. It is not the incoming churches intention probably but they have failed to research the area into which they are coming. By being cultural irrevelent I mean importing worship music and styles from the 'home country' and not using local styles, singing songs in english and not even bothering to translate the songs into the local language, importing prosperity teaching and clothing styles, importing cultural norms disguised as christian teaching (e.g. the drinking alcohol debate), not bothering to find out how the local church functions or what other christian organizations already exsist in the said country. One classic example was a team from a christian college that came to work with our mission organization and refused to listen to our advice on how to approach evangelism in the country we were working in. As a result they nearly got arrested. You point out that someone must be punished for killing innocent civilans. Who is going to punish the Israelis for the innocent palestinians killed?

It goes both ways. The innocent killing of Palestinians woudl be a hard point to prove since the people that the israelies are fighting are not neccessarily wearing military uniforms. It's like in Vietnam where we didn't know who was who. We went in with good intentions but innocent people were killed. It is the nature of war. Not that that is any kind of excuse for the loss of innocent lives but whoever weilds the power o punish will punish.

This is an age old debate of might equals right.

I am not there right now, all I know is the dozens of conflicting reports about what is happening in the West Bank. If innocent people are being killed it must stop.

As for France making laws about Western Churches, I wasn't aware that France could make such laws regarding religion. Americans are not all ignorant or insensative to other cultures. Least of all our churches.

I am not a missionary but I have traveled all over South America with the military and have seen many American Churches set up in them. Never are they held in contempt by the culture, nor are they destructive to that culture.

These churches are in place to save souls. I would put that first before preserving culture anyway.


God Bless

Originally posted by davo

The equation is rather simple:
*STOP THE OCCUPATION & YOU STOP THE VIOLENCE*

davo

Click to expand...

Hello Davo,

I'm afraid its not so simple. The PLO factions and the Arabs have to recognize the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace.

The Palestineans teach their children in school that the Jews gained all their land through deceit. (For the descendents of Jacob this should sound familar). Until recently, the PLO charter called for the entire destruction of the state of Israel. The policy of the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah etc.. all demand the utter destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Fundamental Muslim state. These terrorist organizations live with the tacit approval of Arafat's PLO. They are also being funded by Saudi Arabia.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Jews to negotiate with such people.

Negotiation is only possible if Arafat makes a determined effort to curb and ban the Hamas and other extreme terrorist groups. He only makes lukewarm efforts.

Would you negotiate with such people or to pull back your troops??

Originally posted by Yauming



Hello Davo,

I'm afraid its not so simple. The PLO factions and the Arabs have to recognize the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace.

The Palestineans teach their children in school that the Jews gained all their land through deceit. (For the descendents of Jacob this should sound familar). Until recently, the PLO charter called for the entire destruction of the state of Israel. The policy of the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah etc.. all demand the utter destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Fundamental Muslim state. These terrorist organizations live with the tacit approval of Arafat's PLO. They are also being funded by Saudi Arabia.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Jews to negotiate with such people.

Negotiation is only possible if Arafat makes a determined effort to curb and ban the Hamas and other extreme terrorist groups. He only makes lukewarm efforts.

Would you negotiate with such people or to pull back your troops??

Click to expand...

Yauming said:
"The PLO factions and the Arabs have to recognize the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace."

Too true. However, negotion is a 2way street -Israel needs to recognize Palestinian statehood -they too have a right to a peaceful home-land (they once had that until they were forcibly pushed out).

I'm in no position to say who teaches "what" to their children. But I'll say this: if we as Christians continue to instill the lie that Israel can do no wrong in our kids (as dispensationalism does) then the west will still keep funding Israel just as you say others fund the Palestinians -the vicious cycle must be broken.

Besides *STOP THE OCCUPATION & YOU STOP THE VIOLENCE* is a good place to start.

davo

Semites refer to a large group of people, including
Arabs and Jews. Many cultures/races have survived
intact for 2000 years, Hebrews just have better
press/lobby groups. All of these cultures have a
common racist theme, that their own race/culture is
superior to all others, that ensures the racial purity.
The Zionist thought is quite apparent, has us ignorant
halfbreed Americans calling each other "Gentile" or
goyum, and we do not even care it is a racist slur.
I realize that this thread will immediately be classified
as Nazi just because I dare to say anything in contrast
to the norm here.
But before we hop into World War III on a blind whim
to support Israel, we might want to make sure what we/
you are supporting. I have no hatred of Jews, nor do
I have any hatred of Arabs, or Palestinians, or "Muslims"
or Pakistanis, Afghanis, Persians, or the large fraction
of the world you all lump together and despise. You
have little understanding of the recent history of the
middle east, and have no desire to. Which is fine.
When I went to college at Asbury, there were a couple
of Palestinian christian brothers that attended there as
well, and were not welcomed by their christian brothers
and sisters, called names, and described as "dirty" and
"ignorant". Of course they were fluent in 5-6 languages
and straight A students, but they still were Palestinians.
Since then, I have developed a certain dislike of people
pretending to be christians but harboring racist hatred
for a large portion of this planet.
The Palestinian problem is a real one, and they are the
invaded and occupied people in this discussion. They
had nothing to do with WW2, Germany, or Hitler, so
those topics should not be injected into the discussion.
"Annexing territories" and refugee camps are terms in
common with WW2, so they should be infused into the discussion, as are many other terms and ideas. The
horror of 9/11 should not be used as an excuse for
Israel to deal harshly with their "Palestinian problem".
Nor should the U.S. be pulled into WW3. A twisted
interpretation of the Bible should not give Israel any
green light to what they are doing and have done.

Originally posted by Fish
Semites refer to a large group of people, including

....

(CUT- excessive quoting will not be tolerated- see the original post above by Fish
PETCA moderator)

Click to expand...

BRAVO!! Well said Fish

davo

Originally posted by Fish
Semites refer to a large group of people, including
Arabs and Jews. Many cultures/races have survived
intact for 2000 years, Hebrews just have better
press/lobby groups. ....

Click to expand...

Hello Fish,

Please name me one minor Nation (5-50 million strong) that had been (conquered), its people deported, enslaved, scattered to the ends of world, and who recovered after 2000 years.

Considering the persecution the Jews have suffered under the Ancient Eqyptians, Philistines, Babylonians, Romans, Medieval Europeans, and in latter years the Nazis, I'd say the Hebrews had the WORSE press/lobby groups.

It takes a whole lot more than a good Public relation groups to ensure the survival of a nation people for several thousand. That takes the hand of God.

I'm very sorry to hear that some foolish Christians have decided to prejudice Palestinian Christians. That is very wrong.

Cheers,

YM

You messed up and called them a nation. How in the
world did they become a nation? Political power and
good press? If you think otherwise then let us know.
Mant races and/or cultures have retained their
identity for that long, but by being inherently racist,
Zionism/Judaism especially.
I am not against them, but get real.
What brought the Nazis into the discussion?
Fish

Originally posted by Fish
How in the world did they become a nation? Political power and good press? If you think otherwise then let.. Fish

Click to expand...

In much the same way as most nations do.

The Jews lived there for a very long time, but after the ancient Roman occupation most of the Jewish people were deported all over the Roman Empire. They've been persecuted ever since, the notable one being Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. After that most of the Jewish survivors in Europe left and tried to go back to their ancient homeland.

In 1947, the UN voted to give independence to the Jewish quarters of Palestine. The Arabs objected and launched an all out war. Eqypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Arab Palestine, etc.. sent their armies to wipe out Israel.

But the Jews using their elite Press Agents, PR men, and their lobby groups stopped the massive Arab armies in their tracks. Their lobbying skill and mechanized printing press, threw back the Arab tanks, bayonets, airforce, and soldiers, winning the war for Israel!!!! Just kidding!!!!!!!

LOL.