What's the heart of Christianity?

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mlepfitjw

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The problem is that Aiki's first post does not really align with his second post. He is saying in his first post that the end goal is not living holy. He even repeats this point in the thread. This fies in direct contradiction to Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14. He says you can know God and not worry so much about keeping His commandments but this contradicts 1 John 2:3-4. Aiki's second post appears to do damage control to his first post in that obedience will come as a result of knowing God. But Jesus says, “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).

It's cool brother, believe this when it should be said, people are people. People are going to believe how they are going to believe, and there is nothing we can do to change their minds.

Is Aiki, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who God raised from the dead? Yes he is, does he desire to live the way he wants to live? This is freedom of choice that is allowed by the Lord Jesus Christ, to live however people desire to live.

Is aiki teaching wrong? No, but can you question what he is teaching ? Yes you can. Does that mean we need to correct him on anything? No, we accept him for who he is an individual who believes and has faith. Because this is what the Lord Jesus Christ would need us to do.


There are so many people on this forums, not everyone is going to agree on the same thing, the only thing we will ever agree on as far as the faith goes, is that God sent Jesus, Jesus lived here and made a choice to die for us as we were still sinners, and raised him from the dead.

We should find unity, and live in peace with all men. Don't forget these things! Writing my heart on my sleeve here for you and with you as a brother. b4 the thread gets locked down.
 
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Isilwen

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Good day to you in the Lord.

Oh. I'm having a grand day. Did some Bible reading this morning. Walked my dog. Now I am modding Skyrim some. My only day off this week from work. So, I am making the most of it.

You have a good day as well!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It's cool brother, believe this when it should be said, people are people. People are going to believe how they are going to believe, and there is nothing we can do to change their minds.

Is Aiki, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who God raised from the dead? Yes he is, does he desire to live the way he wants to live? This is freedom of choice that is allowed by the Lord Jesus Christ, to live however people desire to live.

Is aiki teaching wrong? No, but can you question what he is teaching ? Yes you can. Does that mean we need to correct him on anything? No, we accept him for who he is an individual who believes and has faith. Because this is what the Lord Jesus Christ would need us to do.


There are so many people on this forums, not everyone is going to agree on the same thing, the only thing we will ever agree on as far as the faith goes, is that God sent Jesus, Jesus lived here and made a choice to die for us as we were still sinners, and raised him from the dead.

We should find unity, and live in peace with all men. Don't forget these things! Writing my heart on my sleeve here for you and with you as a brother. b4 the thread gets locked down.

It is written:

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
 
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Neogaia777

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Well, I think "true obedience" is a fruit and not a root, and all else is just false obedience, etc, fake, etc, fully of hypocrisy, etc, a sure sign of one who is deceiving themselves and their own mind, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It is written:

“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” (Luke 6:45).
 
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Neogaia777

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It is written:

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
Perfect Love casts away/aside all fear, he who still fears has not been made perfect in Love, and has not yet learned how to fully obey the commandments, etc, and God has not given us a spirit of fear, etc, etc, etc...

Those are just the ones I know off the top of my head, etc, except I added the "and has not yet learned how to fully obey the commandments (of Jesus)" part, cause that's what those words truly and fully imply in them, etc...

God Bless!
 
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What is the heart of Christianity?

The heart of Christianity is Jesus Christ.
By knowing God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and be following Him in a personal relationship is at the heart of Christianity. This following of Jesus does not agree with us breaking God's commands and thinking we are okay with God. The heart of Christianity is Jesus because He has set the captives free.

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).
 
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mlepfitjw

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What is the heart of Christianity?

The heart of Christianity is Jesus Christ.
By knowing God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and be following Him in a personal relationship is at the heart of Christianity. This following of Jesus does not agree with us breaking God's commands and thinking we are okay with God. The heart of Christianity is Jesus because He has set the captives free.

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Amen brother. May the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, and grace be upon you and all here.
 
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How does one obtain perfect love so as to cast out fear?

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:5-6).
 
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Neogaia777

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How does one obtain perfect love so as to cast out fear?

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:5-6).
And you've got it backwards, keeping his word (obedience) is the fruit, and Love is the root, and comes first, and when the Love of God is perfected in him first, then also, or so will he then, also keep his Word or fully obey His commandments, etc, but and/or not before Love is perfected in Him, etc, cause obedience is a fruit and not a root, and Love is the root that produces the fruit, etc...

And Love does the work that produces the fruit, etc...

If you try to make obedience the root, then your only sure to fail very miserably every single time, etc...

It's a fruit and not a root, the real true kind is anyway, etc...

Anyway, hope you have a good or great day doing what you need to be doing or be getting done man...

God Bless!
 
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aiki

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Why do I have to explain what aiki already has explained? Can you not read it for yourself? There is another who is agreeing with aiki and saying that maybe you missed the forest for the trees.

You can lead a horse to water...

Thanks for coming to my defense, Isilwen.
 
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aiki

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It might be worth pointing out that Bible Highlighter never actually dealt directly with the contents of my opening posts but instead just made (mistaken) assertions about my meaning and then demanded I defend against those assertions. This is called Strawman arguing. I will defend my statements, if necessary, but not the mistaken assertions others make about my statements.

Anyway, I hope those reading this thread don't find themselves at this point in it having forgotten entirely what I wrote at its opening.
 
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Jaxxi

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I would say Baptism by Fire, that leads to True Repentance, that leads to a complete turnaround toward walking in Perfect Love always.

Water Baptism is just a symbol and public declaration of that (Baptism by Fire) as in and of itself and itself only (water baptism), has no power to save in and of or by itself only, etc... Not saying you shouldn't do it, cause it should be done at some point, but it is only a symbol or a shadow of something far higher and much greater, etc...

But whatever the baptism is, if it leads to true repentance, and then perfect Love, or Love perfected, then your doing really, really well then I would say, or I would think, in my opinion, etc...

God Bless!
Jesus was baptized in water, how do we get baptized by fire? That seems dangerous.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It might be worth pointing out that Bible Highlighter never actually dealt directly with the contents of my opening posts but instead just made (mistaken) assertions about my meaning and then demanded I defend against those assertions. This is called Strawman arguing. I will defend my statements, if necessary, but not the mistaken assertions others make about my statements.

Anyway, I hope those reading this thread don't find themselves at this point in it having forgotten entirely what I wrote at its opening.

I am not attacking a strawman. I am attacking the words in which you wrote that does not line up with the Bible.

You said, I quote: “In this thinking, three very spiritually-dangerous things - Moralism, self-effort, and fear - are bound up together, creating a "perfect storm" of faulty thinking that could only lead to frustration, compromise and hypocrisy in my walk with God. And they did.

Is righteousness the primary goal of the Christian life? No. It is merely the avenue, the means to, enjoying loving, rich fellowship with God.”

Quote by: Aiki.

Okay. I agree that self effort alone is bad. This would be any work, tradition, or efforts outside of God and His Holy Word. But to say that Morals (God's commands) and the fear of God is spiritually dangerous and leads to creating a perfect storm is false. You ask: Is righteousness the primary goal of the Christian life? Then you said... “no.” (as your answer). But Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14 refutes this kind of thinking. Living righteously is a part of knowing God. To know God is to have eternal life (John 17:3).
 
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Navair2

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Growing up within the Christian community as I did, I encountered many answers to the question, "What is the heart of Christianity?".
So have I...
But I keep coming back to this:

John 11:25-26.
John 14:6.
John 17:3.

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.
 
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aiki

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Okay. I agree that self effort alone is bad. This would be any work, tradition, or efforts outside of God and His Holy Word. But to say that Morals (God's commands) and the fear of God is spiritually dangerous and leads to creating a perfect storm is false.

This isn't what I wrote. I referred to Moralism, not morals, in the quotation from my post that you cited. I also took pains to define a particular type of fear:

"What is strong enough motivation to move me willingly - even joyfully - into the crucified life of Self-denial? Not fear. Though, many Christians often resort to this motive in living for God. I certainly used to live from this motive as a Christian. But, it isn't strong enough to produce consistent and joyful obedience to God. Instead, fearing God made me resent Him and mistrust Him. And it didn't produce for me a consistently holy life, either.

Because this is so, Scripture never encourages me to a motivation of fear in my walk with God. Now, by "fear" I mean a cowering terror of a dangerous, threatening power, not the reverential awe the Bible urges in me toward God. This cowering sort of fear is too weak to move me along properly as a child of God. No, God intends instead that LOVE should motivate my life with Him."


And then I offered 1 John 4:16-19, Matthew 22:36-38 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 as scriptural support for my comments, which you ignored.

You ask: Is righteousness the primary goal of the Christian life? Then you said... “no.” (as your answer).

As I already explained to you in an earlier post, in saying that righteousness isn't the primary end of the Christian life I am NOT saying it has no part in the Christian life at all. As I explained in my 3 opening posts, one cannot achieve the ultimate aim of Christian living - which is to know, love, enjoy and glorify God - without a holy, righteous life. I have no idea how you've missed this, except that your "axe-grinding" is crippling your ability to actually take in what others are saying.

Living righteously is a part of knowing God.

Absolutely - which I point out several times in my first 3 posts! See post #55 in this thread.
 
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Growing up within the Christian community as I did, I encountered many answers to the question, "What is the heart of Christianity?". Most commonly, I was told that the Christian life was about loving Jesus by living the way he said to live. And that way was a holy way, a moral way, a way of righteousness. As a younger man, I didn't understand that what I was hearing in this particular answer was only a half-truth and as such was not actually the truth. In fact, this view of the Christian life is what is known as Moralism and is actually quite devastating to true Christian living.

The main idea in Moralism is that the apex of the Christian life is holiness. What all Christians ought to shoot for is a life that is highly moral, free of sin and its fouling stain. Typically, on Moralism, this holy life is attained by "bearing down," by "committing to," by "discipline and determination," by "self-sacrifice and persistence." So, when I was told that, as a Christian, I ought to live a holy life, I was usually also told that doing so was accomplished by tremendous and costly self-effort.

But, it was simply my duty, my obligation, to "dig deep" and "live for Jesus." He had died for me, after all, and so, in return, I was obliged to sacrifice myself in pursuit of Christian living. And if I didn't, well, the yawning maw of hell waited to engulf me, as it would any who turned back from the great and holy work of living for Jesus.

In this thinking, three very spiritually-dangerous things - Moralism, self-effort, and fear - are bound up together, creating a "perfect storm" of faulty thinking that could only lead to frustration, compromise and hypocrisy in my walk with God. And they did.

Is righteousness the primary goal of the Christian life? No. It is merely the avenue, the means to, enjoying loving, rich fellowship with God.

Hebrews 12:14
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


In this verse, what is the purpose of living a holy, peaceful life? Is holiness an end in itself? NO! It is just the means by which the Christian believer may "see God." Is this verse speaking only of the heavenly hereafter? Or does Scripture tells us we may experience God - "see" Him - on this side of the grave, too?

The New Testament is bursting with verses that indicate that God is not just some happy future prospect we must wait 'til death to enjoy, but One with whom we may fellowship right now! The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, teaches us divine truth, and glorifies God within us (John 16:8-14); the Spirit strengthens us (Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:13; Ephesians 3:16); the Spirit produces in us spiritual "fruit" (Galatians 5:22-23); the Spirit transforms us into the likeness of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18). And so on.

As the Holy Spirit works in us, we come to know God more, to understand Him better, and to enjoy deeper and deeper communion with Him. In this communion, this fellowship, with God there is incredible fulfillment, meaning, joy, love, peace and rest (John 14:27; Matthew 11:28-30; 1 John 4:16-19). It is this wonderful fellowship with God that is the end goal of our holy, Christ-centered living and is, actually, supposed to be the prime motivation for it.

1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.


1 John 1:3
3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.


I lived for many years trying to be a holy man without ever truly knowing God and enjoying Him. Oh, I knew about God, I knew the facts of the Bible concerning God, but I didn't think I could actually experience God directly and personally on a regular basis. And so, I couldn't know Him for myself, like I would any in my social circle I called friend or family.

It was...very hard to stay motivated to live for such a distant figure I knew nothing of personally - and certainly didn't enjoy. But, I went through the motions, failing and compromising regularly, shouldering the burden of Christian living as a good soldier of Jesus Christ, though my heart yearned for - and often strayed into - other worldly, fleshly and unholy things.

I had adopted a very Moralistic approach to being a Christian, though, at the time, I'd never heard the term "Moralism." Live right. That was my goal as a Christian, which meant not doing things that were immoral. So, I went to church three or four times a week; I prayed over meals, before bed, and at Prayer Meeting on Wednesday evenings; I didn't go to the movie theater, or drink alcohol, or smoke, or listen to secular music; I didn't swear, or party or hang around with non-Christian people. I was - outwardly anyway - a good Christian guy. My moralistic thinking, though, had made me a Pharisee:

Matthew 15:7-8
7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.


This is where Moralism always ends up. And this is because it is working for the wrong thing entirely, and usually from the wrong power source and motive. The purpose of holy living isn't simply to be holy but to create a life in which a holy God may be known, experienced and enjoyed.

John 10:10
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.


Living among so many other moralistic believers, it took decades for me to figure this out.

(Continued in following post.)
Always found Gustaf Wingren's summary tremendously helpful as I have continued to wrestle against Moralism in my own life:

"God does not need your good works. But your neighbour does."

God does not save because of good works but saves us to good works. Righteous living is simply about loving our neighbour, bringing God's Kingdom to this world, and living lives of meaning. It's not about becoming perfect specimens of virtue to impress God so much he takes us to heaven when we die.
 
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