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What's the difference?

Gnarwhal

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So it's been alluded to at a couple different points here in TT, and I would like to hear a bit more about the differences in the Charismatic expression of faith within Traditional churches.

My only experience of it is under the umbrella of American Evangelicalism and I can tell you that I certainly do not like it one bit. I won't bother stringing together all of the adjectives I would use to describe it, but suffice it to say I think it does more harm than good. However, I've been given the impression that it looks very different under the auspices, of say, The Episcopal Church.

For my friends here who are members of Traditional churches (of any kind) can you point out any significant differences and similarities between the two forms of Charismatic Christianity (Evangelical vs. [Your Tradition)?

I suppose to establish a benchmark, when I think of Evangelical Charismatics I think of infamous groups like Bethel Church (home of Jesus Culture), The International House of Prayer, Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, the Lakeland Revivals and leaders/teachers like Joyce Meyer, Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, Scott Lively, etc. All of whom I think, frankly, absolutely ruin the Christian faith.
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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I think that the biggest difference between those that you mention and those of us who are within the scope of what we here call TT is that there is a great emphasis withing those Evangelical groups on self; personal relationship, personal acceptance, personal revelation, personal interpretation; in short: I. Within our traditional Churches, some teach cooperation with grace, but the bottom line is always that it's God's doing; the work of the Holy Spirit. Not just outward works and signs, but all Godly works and actions are either the direct result of the work of the Holy Spirit, or are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Martin Luther sums it up so well in his explanation of the 3rd. article of the Apostles Creed found in the Small Catechism:

 
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FireDragon76

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Mostly the Charismatic movement as a distinct movement in the mainline churches, is a fad of the 70's and 80's, and is now gone. I believe the main culprit is that there was very little theology to sustain it, and a great deal of the movement's emphasis contradicted many of the long-held, entrenched attitudes towards piety and worship.

Central Florida has a few Episcopal churches influenced by the charismatic revival, but I wouldn't say any are distinctly charismatic. Mark is right to point out that most mainline churches are far less individualistic in their attitudes and practices, and this applies to many churches that have "charismatic" practices.
 
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MKJ

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I think as far as my experience goes within Anglicanism, I would agree with Firedragon. It seemed to be something of a fad that is largely dying out - the people interested in it today seem to be middle aged ladies, mostly.

Though, that does describe a heck of a lot of Anglicans.

Typically what was seen here is there would be special charismatic services apart from the usual ones. Often 'healing" services were a feature. They tended to involve singing rather poor songs, putting hands up in the air a lot and holding hands, and occasionally speaking in tongues though that would be a bit on the edge of normal I think.

Some of that stuff has made its way a little bit into the main services in some parishes, so perhaps that accounts in part for why it is dying out as a spcial group thing. Though I think another factor is that it just doesn't seem to be offering anything very coherent in terms of Anglicanism - people who really think that is what church should look like will find it done better elsewhere, and it tends to make the more distinctively Anglican things disappear.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Though, that does describe a heck of a lot of Anglicans.

Sorry, but that made me laugh.

I've never heard of a charismatic "movement" within Orthodoxy, and I think we just have a very different idea of how charismatic gifts manifest themselves, and perhaps what their purpose is within the Church.

Mary
 
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FireDragon76

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Sorry, but that made me laugh.

I've never heard of a charismatic "movement" within Orthodoxy, and I think we just have a very different idea of how charismatic gifts manifest themselves, and perhaps what their purpose is within the Church.

Mary

Much the same is true in Anglicanism, traditionally, though from what I read, interest in charismatic healing is not new in Anglicanism. In the early-to-mid 19th century there was an English woman, also Anglican, named Dorothy Kerin that had a miraculous deathbed recovery, later having visions, and later went on to perform healings and on occasion, preach. She is also one of the few, and definitely earliest, non-Roman Catholic to claim to have the stigmata on her hands. She lived right around the time of the Pentecostal movement growing in England, especially among the poor, and I have no idea if that influenced her or not, but I do know her own personal piety and churchmanship was Anglo-Catholic.

I do think there is more openness to certain charismatic elements on the Anglo-Catholic side of things in the Episcopal church, definitely less on old-school liberal side (though there are liberal charismatic Episcopalians and Anglicans). T

I see people raising hands in worship sometimes... mostly among younger and middle-aged women. I've even seen somebody doing that in an Orthodox church! Personally, I'm very OK with that, it fits in with all the other things that Anglicans traditionally do, such as cross themselves and so forth. And I've been to service where prayer shawls were blessed for people that were sick and so forth... I just see it as good stuff.

What I don't see as good stuff, on the other hand, is some of the theology and cultural assumptions of the neo-charismatic movement- especially the individualism that it often present. Mysticism and ecstatic religion can lead a lot of other people out in the cold and its important that the Church accommodates all types of people. And sometimes there is some crossing-over going on with the mainline, or at least attempts to do so. Especially Anglicans that take ecclesiology lightly (I used to belong to a Bible group that had a lot of Baptists and Seventh Day Adventists and it was quite difficult at times, even though the leader, a deacon, was cool with all of it, having been formerly Pentecostal himself (and I don't think he ever left his Pentecostalism behind, honestly). It just seemed very un-Episcopalian to have to accommodate a lot of viewpoints that were otherwise fundamentalist. As the only liberal in the group, I tended to keep my mouth shut and eventually, wore out from it.
 
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GoingByzantine

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It is easy to forget that Charismaticism predates the so called "Charismatic movement", there have been elements of it in traditional liturgies in the past. I understand Charismatic elements are quite common in the Tewahedo churches, in fact upon review of an Eritrean Eastern Catholic Liturgy...you can even see it first hand.

Look what happens at 36:30 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4nDXKr5FJc
 
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Liberasit

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My church is evangelical and we don't describe ourselves as charismatic, although believe that spiritual gifts are real in these times.

A visitor would only see that we had a prayer ministry at the end of each service. Outside of services, we would have more charismatic expression, with particular people using their spiritual gifts to the benefits of the church family and wider community. Some house groups will have a more charismatic flavour than others, depending on the people who have gravitated to that group.

The main place where as a church family we are outwardly charismatic is at our annual house party. I don't think this is surprising given the circumstances.

I visit another Anglican Church several times a year, and the last time the rector said they were charismatic. I hadn't noticed them being very different from my church, a little more covenant and less Kingdom perhaps, but I don't think that's a factor.
 
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Gnarwhal

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What I'm curious about is does the brand of the charismatic you experience resemble anything that groups like IHOP and Bethel celebrate?

 
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Gnarwhal

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I have no idea you are talking about. I am straight up Anglican.

Are you familiar at all with the charismatic movement in America? I suspect it may be quite different from what the charismatic "pockets" found in Anglicanism, Catholicism, etc. See it's quite anarchic, and I think it stretches far beyond the boundaries of proper Christianity. I mean, just as a small anecdote, my sister visited Bethel on two occasions to see what the fuss was about. She came back each time and clinically reported how bizarre it was. People walking around the room on all fours making animal noises (barking like dogs), people doing laps around the room while praying and falling down at specific points in the lap, claims of gold dust and feathers falling from the ceiling, etc. I'm convinced that's all completely heretical, but I think if the charismatic side of Christianity exists in more traditional churches, surely it's governed more properly.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If I may say.....growing up in the Charismatic Evangelical culture, it was interesting to see good as well as bad with the way things went.

But as it concerns Charismatics within the Traditional realm one thing I like to keep in mind are the experiences I've had in the Catholic Church. I remember years ago, back in 2001 when I went with some of my Jamaican family and friends to Jamaica, that we went to the church that one of my peers grew up in. It was a Catholic Church - and yet I was so amazed at how vibrant the worship was, even down to the taking of Communion. From the clapping of hands to people saying "Amen!" during the services and clapping during the liturgy to certain songs, It was radically different from what happened in the U.S when it came to Catholic churches I had visited - even though I attended a Catholic elementary school in the hood that was very easy to relate to.

It made me consider how Caribbean Catholicism is very much influenced by the Charismatic side of things - and thus, a lot more exciting. Of course, I've witnessed the same thing with regards to African-Christianity in general since it has also happened in the world of Orthodoxy (more shared here) - but with Catholicism, Caribbean Catholics always seem so joyful. For reference:

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlSmmMXjDjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDMZzAS2ihI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvVmuZFX-sQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1tphmn03w
 
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Gxg (G²)

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So true - and many thanks for pointing out what you did in review. Ethiopian Orthodoxy is very Charismatic in many respects, although they are also ordered.

Many seem fearful of anything that is Charismatic - although I don't see that as necessary. I've seen others claim before that Pentecostalism is somehow "anti-intellectual" - but for me, growing up within the movement and seeing many scholars/teachers (from Sam Storms to Amos Young in his works to Jon Mark Ruthven, PhD to Dr. Michael Brown and so many others.....including the Methodist Church since much of its roots were with the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement as far back as John Wesley and has been a part of its spread). There is, as I've seen, an anti-intellectualism that is more so focused on mysticism when it comes to not believing one can adequately explain ALL aspects of the Mysterious Divine Godhead and that God does not always do things in formula.....and of course, in other places, I've seen others who didn't care for study and academic rigor. But that is not found in all places, of course and this has been present for some time.

Many of them have done what they did in regards to the wider memory of the Church - which, from what I've studied, was very much close (at specific times) to what one would see in Pentecostalism. For many, what often occurs is that dialogues begin on seeing the wider history of the Church...and understanding on the shapings of history. Spencer Estabrooks (MA, MDiv, is Director of St. Arseny Orthodox Christian Theological Institute) shared some very solid thoughts on the issue in A Continuing Pentecost: The Experience of the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Christianity (With a View to Dialogue Between Orthodox Christians and Pentecostals).

For even within the history of the Church, the Fathers had authority over nature. The Fathers raised the dead. They cured the ill. They ascended into the Heavenly Realm and conversed with angels. They went to speak to those who spoke another tongue and found that, without having learned that tongue, they could preach to the people (and this evangelical gift, which allowed the Apostles to spread the message of Christianity, was present in the Early Church). St. Paul even warns those who have it not to cause confusion, but, in order to be consistent with the purpose of the gift—that of witnessing to the Faith—, to use the gift only if interpretation is available. On top of that, there's Miracles, holy relics, healings, missions, icons that stream holy and miraculous oil.

And for other Orthodox leaders, the ones I am automatically reminded of are people such as Fr. Eusebius A. Stephanou with the Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian of the Orthodox Renewal Center. As another noted best in review:

Fr. Eusebius Stephanou another Greek Orthodox priest, believed the Charismatic movement was from God. Instead of being rejected, Fr. Eusebius and his work of promoting renewal in Orthodoxy was supported financially and verbally by GOARCH bishops. To his death, Fr. Eusebius was a praised and recognized priest, and former teacher at Holy Cross Seminary. Never was he disciplined or reprimanded or corrected. In fact Eusebius's bishop gave money towards his renewal work in the Greek Orthodox Church. Many saw and do see him as a man like St. Seraphim of Sarov pointing dry bones people to the Holy Spirit. While the legacy of St. Hermans for many years was of schism, Fr. Eusebius faithfully served in communion all his days.

Fr. Eusebius was one of many Orthodox priests who participated. Fr. James Tavralides, Fr. Constantine Monios and Fr. David Buss, Fr. Athanasius Emmert of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, and Fr. Boris Zabrodsky of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, founder of the Service Committee for Orthodox Spiritual Renewal all rejoiced in God's work in the Charismatic renewal. These Holy men disagreed radically with Fr. Seraphim's assessment.​

Pentecostals were descended from the Nazarenes who were descended from the Methodists who were encouraged by John Wesley to read the Eastern Church Fathers. As a result, to some extent charismatics partially reflected Orthodox views about the active work of the Holy Spirit. And this is something many keep in mind...
















What I've also seen is that much of what is present within Pentecostalism globally is similar to Roots Theology - or those who are not always within the world of academia nor seeking to do things as they have always been done when it comes to reaching the unique needs of oppressed groups without access to many things.. Lively pentecostal worship In an Asian context fits the religious expectation of Asians, who see deities as immediately interacting with their worshippers. God is to interact with his worshippers, listening to their prayers, responding to their worship and providing for their needs, which is quite different from the version of Christianity Which western missionaries once propagated, except for Pentecostalism (more here, here and here)
 
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Liberasit

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Maybe they suspected she was from the Daily Mail?

I think it might be worth going over Matthew 7:1-5
 
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Gnarwhal

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I'm just fine, thanks.

I don't need to go into anymore detail about those churches, everyone outside of those organizations knows they're a farce. One only needs to watch the documentary God Loves Uganda to know groups like that are over the edge.

My inquiry was to find out if charismaticism looks the same in the Traditional church context, I find that I trust Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians and the like far more than Evangelicals when it comes to handling the Spiritual gifts.
 
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Shane R

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In theory, the charismata persist. However, I think most traditional churches are skeptical of their expression. This is proper as their is rampant charlatanism among Evangelicals who profess charismatic expression. Most evangelicals are surprised to know that the same expressions occur in religions such as Wicca and Hinduism.

When we think about the charismata we must keep in mind the purpose of the gifts. They were not a necessity to one's salvation. They were a help to the furtherance of the gospel and a testimony to the power of the one God, Yahweh. They confirmed the apostolic teaching through visible signs.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Indeed. I'm in my second semester studying Eastern Religions and I am in fact seeing a lot of similarities between Hinduism and charismatic Christianity.


Yeah that sounds like the proper understanding of it all to me.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Concerning what was shared here, I think people should realize that there were always many differing expressions of the Charismatic practice in the Early Church - some of which would shock others. The reasons why are because of how many differing environments there were in the Early Church - and just because you didn't see Charismatic expression all the time within Divine Liturgy did not mean there were differing services of other types in which the Lord was present.

There was a discussion elsewhere where the CFs were discussed and I tried to give some more clarity on the issue which stood out, as seen here:

[/QUOTE]​
 
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