What's the difference between EOC & RCC?

[ladodgers6]

What are the major differences between EOC & RCC?

 

[truefiction1]

What are the major differences between EOC & RCC?

The RCC leans strongly toward turning the Church into a thoroughly rationalized system of belief, as is seen even more fully developed in much of Protestant Christianity. The EOC, on the other hand, tends to look more toward mystical (that is, a sort of knowledge that transcends cognitive definition) experience in Communion with God as the Way to True religion and knowledge of God.

This is only a generalization. Specific differences, such as how the Papacy is viewed or what is stated in the Creed about the procession of the Holy Spirit, are likely due to these tendencies.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The RCC leans strongly toward turning the Church into a thoroughly rationalized system of belief, as is seen even more fully developed in much of Protestant Christianity. The EOC, on the other hand, tends to look more toward mystical (that is, a sort of knowledge that transcends cognitive definition) experience in Communion with God as the Way to True religion and knowledge of God.

This is only a generalization. Specific differences, such as how the Papacy is viewed or what is stated in the Creed about the procession of the Holy Spirit, are likely due to these tendencies.

It's a very generalized perspective.
We too have a mystical tradition though it's mostly monastic, but still it's there.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What are the major differences between EOC & RCC?

A great deal could be said about this. But it is based on the tendency of where we get our beliefs and how we define them.

Rome added the Filioque to the Nicene Creed, and so most or all Protestants also use it (being descended from Catholicism).

The authority of the Roman Pope over everyone else is another change from early understanding that we do not follow. The result is that Catholics have an ecclesiastical authority different from ours, resting in one man. While Orthodoxy is a synod of head bishops who (in a voting situation) do not have more voice than any other bishop, and everything is essentially ratified by the monastics and laity, so it is impossible for one man (or even a group of men) to make changes all else recognize as error.

Papal infallibility is a much later addition, as is the belief in the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary herself.

The Immaculate Conception is made necessary in Catholic theology by an understanding of original guilt for Adam's sin carried to all (babies born guilty) rather than an understanding in Orthodoxy that we are born into a sin-infected world, with a bent (fallen) nature that tends toward sin, causing all to sin, at which point we become guilty of our own sins.

That understanding of sin has very far-reaching effects in how we view God (Catholics tend to take a more punitive view), mankind, and sin (Catholics tend to take a more legalistic view). Catholics believe there is both an eternal and a temporal punishment for all sin - the temporal must be "paid for" in some way - through suffering, or offset by good deeds of charity or mercy, or bought with indulgences, etc.

Because of this, purgatory (the means of punishment/suffering "paying for" sins not yet paid for by the time a person dies) and indulgences are part of historic Catholic beliefs, though I keep hearing that these are falling out of favor with modern Catholics?

They also define the Eucharist much more - to Orthodox it is simply a mystery, and it is what Christ says it is (His Body and Blood) but it is also wine (and water) and bread. Catholics have a detailed theology concerning when it happens and what it is.

I think our understanding and descriptions of hell would differ.

We have some differences in our Sacraments - Orthodoxy fully admits a person into the Church with Baptism, Chrismation, and receiving the Eucharist happening all at once, while Catholics hold off on the Eucharist until after Confirmation for their youngest members (I'm not sure but I think Confirmation replaces Chrismation, and I think these are different.) Orthodox do not have Last Rites - we don't anoint for death, but rather annoint for healing up until a person's death.

Those are what I would consider some of the major differences.

There are others as well. Catholics practice adoration of the reserved Eucharist, while we do not. Catholics have more changes - many more actually - brought into their Liturgy while ours essentially does not change. Catholics usually have statues, while they are not really done in Orthodoxy.

That's all I can remember offhand. I may be forgetting some, and be unaware of others.

Despite these, we DO have a certain core of faith and practice that make us appear to be very similar (though sometimes there are differences in those similar-appearing things that people may not realize) - and we also have a great deal of shared theology in many things that has not changed in either of us dating back to the first 1000 years of the Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's a very generalized perspective.
We too have a mystical tradition though it's mostly monastic, but still it's there.

The differences in the mystical interest me, and I don't know much about them.

I know we as Orthodox don't put any emphasis on stigmata, and it seems to be limited to Roman Catholics? And the way in which we view apparitions seems to be somewhat different.

But I'm interested in the more personal, day to day aspects for individuals. I know we as Orthodox are cautioned strongly against visualization in prayer, and I think Catholics are encouraged to (I may say this wrongly?) try to "feel" along with Christ or the Virgin Mary in some kinds of prayer? That isn't talked about really in Orthodoxy, but I'm pretty sure it would be strongly discouraged as well. Are there many warnings against prelest in Catholicism? Again, I may be getting into the kinds of things monastics in Orthodoxy are familiar with, not because they are forbidden to laity, but I find many laity just don't give such things a thought and tend to think that monastics are called to a very different spirituality, which I believe is an error on the part of those who think so (though perhaps a more dangerous error is going to far in the other direction, thinking oneself a monk when one isn't, so I don't mean a one-sided criticism but rather that care is needed all around).

Too much in one paragraph, sorry, and I risk derailing the thread if the OP is not interested in this aspect.

I may try a separate thread later if there is much to say.

But I'm quite interested. As a newly serious and recommitted Christian some years ago, my first step was to order many books with titles that interested me, and they turned out to be a mix of classical Protestant works and those by both Catholic and Orthodox monastics and Mystics, most dating at least several hundred years ago back to around the time of the schism. That was my formation in serious Christianity, without discerning between belief systems, so I suppose I'm endlessly fascinated by the details.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the filioque, Papal infallibility, Papal supremacy, the Pope of Rome as being St Peter's sole successor, Purgatory, merits of salvation, the Immaculate Conception, created grace, the openness to Mary not dying prior to her Assumption, the Beatific Vision, the Catholic view of transubstantiation, original guilt, the idea of valid but illicit views of Apostolic succession, to name a few

 

[prodromos]

Don't forget the hats!

 

[prodromos]

The Latin view of the sacrament of marriage is different, where the couple being married are also the celebrants. Then there is the issue of marriage annulments which is simply unheard of in the early Church.

 

[GregConstantine]

do any of you guys participate in the Orthodox Christianity subreddit forum? There are some people on there claiming to be Orthodox who rabidly argue that there are no significant differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Marriage is a sticky situation on either side, isn't it?

Orthodoxy allows divorce, and I wonder if that ever happened in the early Church?

However, I recognize that people are weak and fallen, and situations can be difficult. And in the end, divorce is not an unforgivable sin (I struggled with that myself for years, even though I had Biblical grounds and didn't initiate it). So to forever exclude people from the Church (and all that entails for the sake of one's salvation) is a more serious crime, I think.

At least divorce is a matter that goes before bishops and there are situational considerations in place, and limits, and so on. And serious sanctions, being barred from Communion for long periods. That alone now would be more to induce me to fight harder against letting it happen.

But I don't think Catholics are able to say they are any more right by simply claiming there was no marriage. It may be more conscience-salving, but in the end, it IS a dissolution of a marriage.

I think both Catholic and Orthodox leadership are simply in a position of trying to do what is best for their flocks and be responsible before God. But I agree that changing the nature of the sacrament itself isn't a valid solution.

 

[~Anastasia~]

do any of you guys participate in the Orthodox Christianity subreddit forum? There are some people on there claiming to be Orthodox who rabidly argue that there are no significant differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

Haven't seen it. That would probably drive me crazy. That sounds more like many Catholics.


It's frustrating to me, though I don't go on about it, when both Protestants AND Catholics assume that we as Orthodox are just like Catholics. We Orthodox seem to be the only ones who recognize the differences. And I get it from both sides from Church visitors during the Fesival. But I try always to be kind - most don't want in-depth information.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

do any of you guys participate in the Orthodox Christianity subreddit forum? There are some people on there claiming to be Orthodox who rabidly argue that there are no significant differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

Catholic acting like trolls.
Ignore them they do not know better really.

The two lung heresy of JPII only fed this kind of uncatholic and unOrthodox thought pattern.

Excuse my brothers, our church is struggling to find itself and its own identity as we speak.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Haven't seen it. That would probably drive me crazy. That sounds more like many Catholics.


It's frustrating to me, though I don't go on about it, when both Protestants AND Catholics assume that we as Orthodox are just like Catholics. We Orthodox seem to be the only ones who recognize the differences. And I get it from both sides from Church visitors during the Fesival. But I try always to be kind - most don't want in-depth information.

Again forgive them because currently lots of Catholics are like sheep's without a Shepard.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Again forgive them because currently lots of Catholics are like sheep's without a Shepard.

Oh, I don't hold animosity toward them. Not at all. At least certainly not to the general laity. I think they are mostly told these things, and they probably don't feel they have any reason to doubt it.

Honestly, I have a lot of compassion for Catholics. Those who grew up in the faith, perhaps with generations and generations steeped in it ... from what I see they are getting blown about a bit by changes - recently, and even not so recently.

If that happened in Orthodoxy, I would be absolutely heartbroken. And add to that, I think Catholics feel tied to the Pope in a way we are not absolutely dependent upon our own (single) hierarchs. We can take it more in stride and it doesn't affect the entire Church if someone comes in and attempts to do things that make changes. Catholics on the other hand seem to have no ecclesiastical protection from that, and when it happens, nowhere to go and remain Catholic.




Of course, since I believe what Orthodoxy teaches, I would simply say "become Orthodox" but I realize that is a very glib answer, and very much a problem in the case of separating oneself from the Catholic Pope, as I was trying to acknowledge above.

As a catechumen, there was a Catholic man going through with me, and for a time I thought Catholics must have it easiest to become Orthodox. But now I think I see that really, they have the most difficult path. Especially with an all-Catholic family. (Though a Protestant family isn't a piece of cake to deal with either!)

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Oh, I don't hold animosity toward them. Not at all. At least certainly not to the general laity. I think they are mostly told these things, and they probably don't feel they have any reason to doubt it.

Honestly, I have a lot of compassion for Catholics. Those who grew up in the faith, perhaps with generations and generations steeped in it ... from what I see they are getting blown about a bit by changes - recently, and even not so recently.

If that happened in Orthodoxy, I would be absolutely heartbroken. And add to that, I think Catholics feel tied to the Pope in a way we are not absolutely dependent upon our own (single) hierarchs. We can take it more in stride and it doesn't affect the entire Church if someone comes in and attempts to do things that make changes. Catholics on the other hand seem to have no ecclesiastical protection from that, and when it happens, nowhere to go and remain Catholic.




Of course, since I believe what Orthodoxy teaches, I would simply say "become Orthodox" but I realize that is a very glib answer, and very much a problem in the case of separating oneself from the Catholic Pope, as I was trying to acknowledge above.

As a catechumen, there was a Catholic man going through with me, and for a time I thought Catholics must have it easiest to become Orthodox. But now I think I see that really, they have the most difficult path. Especially with an all-Catholic family. (Though a Protestant family isn't a piece of cake to deal with either!)

We're in a squeeze now adays due to the post Vii direction of the church.

It's a false idea that we could just abandon our communion.
We believe in the Catholic church, but not in it's current inventions.

It's kind of like at some point we will have the Nehemiah we pray for every day.

We believe in the papacy, but we suffer under heterodox popes.
Its like it's a test of our faith.

Besides as a side note while I love the orthodox church I find it to ethnic for me to ever fit it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We're in a squeeze now adays due to the post Vii direction of the church.

It's a false idea that we could just abandon our communion.
We believe in the Catholic church, but not in it's current inventions.

It's kind of like at some point we will have the Nehemiah we pray for every day.

We believe in the papacy, but we suffer under heterodox popes.
Its like it's a test of our faith.

Besides as a side note while I love the orthodox church I find it to ethnic for me to effort fit it.

Well, as to being under leadership you don't agree with and feel you can't leave, it sounds like you've adopted a noble mindset. And since you say "we" if that is the way many Catholics think, then it is at least praiseworthy for that. I don't know what direction Catholicism will take, or if we will ever reunify, or God's overall plan, etc, so I don't pretend to comment from that point of view.


But since you said it's a false idea that you could abandon it - that's just what I mean. You see yourself with no options. Like the disciples who asked Christ "where would we go?" I feel the same about Orthodoxy of course. Before it was not a big thing to go from Baptist, to Methodist or from Assembly of God to Foursquare, as my beliefs changed. But now I would see myself as abandoning the faith if I should leave Orthodoxy, now that I've found the fullness of it.

Like I said, I think Catholics have the most difficult path to come to Orthodoxy. (Sometimes I wish my husband could know that, since he outright rejects everything to do with me spiritually as being simply "Catholic" - he sees no difference whatsoever.)

Anyway.

I understand your problems with an ethnic parish, and some are certainly that. It shouldn't be their main focus (though I do see from their point of view that they wanted to maintain their heritage, amid the pressure of culture around them, and here we go invading their Church ) but - on the other hand, the Gospel is for everyone.

And I love the Greek culture at our parish, and have wanted to learn the language anyway. Yet I still have my frustrations with it all, and truthfully, I will probably always be something of an outsider, though they are very kind.

Still, it's my own only gathering of people socially (I work with different people constantly and never get to know anyone, and my Protestant friends have mostly rejected me) so I'm thankful for it. And they are very kind.

But the ethnic issue, as far as it is a barrier, is indeed a problem for the Church.

(Still, we recited the Lord's Prayer in 7 languages last week, three of them not historically Orthodox.)

Forgive me for rambling. I'm also trying to coordinate a visit with my brother and daughter via texts, and my mind and attention are too scattered.

 

[YCGP]

I know we as Orthodox are cautioned strongly against visualization in prayer

Could you please tell me a little more about this? What is meant by 'visualization' and why is it supposed to be avoided?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Could you please tell me a little more about this? What is meant by 'visualization' and why is it supposed to be avoided?

Someone else could probably tell you better. Basically though, we are not to have mental images when we pray, not to imagine for ourselves that we see Christ before us, for example. I think the problem is in the very act of imagining, rather than in the image itself, since we can certainly pray before icons. But imagination is a pathway demons can use, so we are strongly urged to avoid having any self-created images in our minds when we pray. Sometimes I can't prevent them, so I will look at an icon or cross, etc. so that I'm not drawn into it.

I am not very familiar with it, but I think Catholics on the other hand are encouraged not only to imagine visual images, but to imagine themselves physically with Christ, for example, and to imagine how that would feel, or else to imagine the feelings of Christ or the Virgin Mary, for example. I have seen mention of it, but as I said, I don't know much about it. But I think it is very much opposed to the kind of advice we are given regarding prayer.

I hope that helps to explain what I meant.

 

[ladodgers6]

The RCC leans strongly toward turning the Church into a thoroughly rationalized system of belief, as is seen even more fully developed in much of Protestant Christianity. The EOC, on the other hand, tends to look more toward mystical (that is, a sort of knowledge that transcends cognitive definition) experience in Communion with God as the Way to True religion and knowledge of God.

This is only a generalization. Specific differences, such as how the Papacy is viewed or what is stated in the Creed about the procession of the Holy Spirit, are likely due to these tendencies.

Thanks for your time and insight. I am not here to debate, but to seek answers. Anything you can tell me about "THEOSIS"?

 

[truefiction1]

Thanks for your time and insight. I am not here to debate, but to seek answers. Anything you can tell me about "THEOSIS"?

Yes. Theosis is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul and body of a person. The Holy Spirit transforms a person, as described in the Bible "from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18) into a being who is in the "likeness of God", as is also stated in the Bible in the Book of Genesis (Genesis 1:26).

This work of the Holy Spirit begins and continues in a person who repents, takes up their cross, denies themselves, and keeps all of Christ's commandments. He who perseveres in this struggle to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13).

An excellent piece of writing that speaks to this is "A Conversation..." Here is a link: http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx