What's the Christian justification for its God's lack of action?

[Florentine]

.

 

[drich0150]

Why does God allow "evil"?

freewill

Why is the reliance on faith and belief preferred to demonstrable evidence for the existence of the deity?

Who says there isn't any evidence? the evidence is there for all who seek it.

 

[Spoonbill]

freewill


Who says there isn't any evidence? the evidence is there for all who seek it.

I don't know. I have spent my whole life looking for evidence, but have found none.

 

[rejectreality]

God created man, and gave man the ability to make decisions without regard to God or His nature. Only God is perfect. Man is imperfect. Therefore, man's choices are a reflection of man's imperfection. I would also argue that only man is evil, as the other acting force in our world is nature. Nature is balanced, and a perfect reflection of our perfect God. Nature does no evil. Only man.

Would people rather be robots? Pre-programmed to be perfect? God asked us to choose Him. He does not force us to love Him.

The second question is answered much the same way. God asked us to believe in Him, trust Him, and love Him. If He revealed Himself in grand fashion, would anyone not choose Him? It doesn't take an ounce of character, discipline, trust, or self-sacrifice to believe in gravity. We know, without a doubt, that it is there. Anyone who denies it is labeled as a complete lunatic, and rightly so. Gravity exists, for we all experience it daily in a completely obvious and public way. God is asks us to trust Him, and that trust is our faith.

 

[drich0150]

I don't know. I have spent my whole life looking for evidence, but have found none.

Maybe you should ask for it.

 

[bibleblevr]

Maybe you should ask for it.

drich0150 is right, just ask God to prove himself to you. Try it with an open mind, and tell him you want something that is definitive proof. Don't ask mockingly or in jest, but ask trying you best to pray earnestly. Then be sure to tell us what happens

So will you take the challenge and ask him? you have nothing to lose!

 

[bibleblevr]

This question is of two parts.

What's the common Christian answer to the theodicy problem? Why does God allow "evil"?

Why is the reliance on faith and belief preferred to demonstrable evidence for the existence of the deity? Where are the miracles?

ty.

There are many Good answers out there, if you search Wickipedia /theodicy, It explains most all of the common ones quite well. But I will give you my view on the subject, because I seem to have a little bit different take on it than most Christians.

I believe that God has made us for the same reason an artist creates a painting, or sculpture, or movie. God, like an artist knows that a painting needs a shadow, although dark and ugly, it is necessary and beautiful in the context of a painting. God could create a painting out of only bright and beautiful colors, and he did, he named him Jesus. So, if God is to create another beautiful painting, there must be something that separates it from his image (Jesus) That separation is sin, and thus evil. If there was no separation, and the second painting was fully perfect, then Jesus would not be possible, because Jesus is God's final word on all matters, He is the sum of all goodness, if there was another perfection, then it would automatically, be by definition, part of Jesus.

But God decided not to leave us like this forever, he has added a splash of color by having Jesus enter the world. When he comes again, he will collect his bride the church, and evil will be destroyed. Then, the Bible used marriage image describing how Jesus and the Christians will be joined together. At this point the Jesus painting and the Human one have merged into the Jesus painting, and we are part of the sum of all things God finds perfect.

This contrast of good and evil is not just something that God finds appealing, because we are made in his image, we do to. Try to think of a movie or book that has not conflict of struggle of evil adversary. The evil makes the story interesting and hating that evil and loving the good is part of the emotions you are meant to feel watching or reading the stories. The titanic is the second highest grossing movie of all time, and it includes thousands of deaths and only a handful of survivors. But would it have been have been a good movie if they had spotted the iceberg far off and casually corrected to the left?

God is a great movie maker, if you listen to any successful story in any form, you can spot Christian themes, particularly Christ themes. (Harry potter, Frodo, the guy from grand Torino, superman, where all based off of Christ just to name a few) That is because like God, we agree as a race that these things make the most beautiful stories.

 

[Spoonbill]

drich0150 is right, just ask God to prove himself to you. Try it with an open mind, and tell him you want something that is definitive proof. Don't ask mockingly or in jest, but ask trying you best to pray earnestly. Then be sure to tell us what happens

So will you take the challenge and ask him? you have nothing to lose!

My friend. I have done this maybe 100 times in my life. In all seriousness. I have given God every single opportunity to show me that he is capable of some form of intervention. I do not believe he can (or does) intervien. I believe the Universe was created by God, and to function accordingly from the second of the big bang.

I never understood why Christians cant possibly accept the notion that perhaps God created the Universe in such a way that he does not need to intervene. It was perfect from the get-go. He could just basically sit back and watch his creation unfold.

Is this not an acceptable view?

 

[Florentine]

.

 

[Pasat_14]

After reading everyones responses I felt the need to come back to the original questions asked. Why does God allow evil to happen? Agreed, it's freewill. If we think of it as Him being our father and us being the kids then as a parent we will let the child make mistakes to learn from their own actions. A parent can not continually intervene and at the same time have the child learning lessons. It's all part of growing, learning from ones mistakes! Where are the miracles? Oh how I love this question! When Jesus walked the Earth he would perform obvious miracles on sick people etc. He would cure them of (for example) their blindness. Does this still not occur today? Rather than having Jesus still directly performing those miracles we have that laser eye surgery that does exactly the same thing! In this way Jesus can heal more than one person at a time too I only have one other thing to say, in an earlier post the idea of asking God to prove himself was encouraged. I'm not going to back that up. I do believe that God proves himself every day, whether it be in the beautiful sunrise I see every morning, the morning fog on the drive to work or the way i see love in the eyes of my beautiful dog. To me, God is proven in all of instances. But at the same time to say "God, prove yourself to me" takes away the whole idea of faith. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we can't see (Hebrews 11:1) All of what I have said though is my personal belief and I certainly can't speak for all Christians because there is such diversity in the religion!

 

[Pasat_14]

Just so you know, I DID press the enter button...it just came up in a huge slab.....

 

[drich0150]

I have no idea how or why I would ask for this assumed deity to prove anything to me.

Then why explore Christianity?

If God is omniscient and eternal it has always known that I would want evidence.

You have to see that the only "evidence" a trained mind will except is the type of evidence that goes against the very nature of God. I other words what will only qualify as evidence places God with in the boundaries of known science and reasoning. If God is infact able to be placed within those boundaries, then He can not be eternal. If God is not infinite then He is not God. So true evidence will only prove that god is not God.

The evidence God offers is on a more personal level. This type of "evidence" is often dismissed by those seeking the type of proof the have been trained to seek. But, How else can an infinite being be seen unless on a very personal level?
Unless God reveled Himself to you, on a level you could comprehend, How else could you know if you were even in his presents?

Even if I was going to ask, how would I do that and what would I expect?

expect an answer that you will be able to believe in, and understand.

Luke 11:

5Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.'

7"Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' 8I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness[e] he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

It is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding and the proof we need. We Ask through prayer, we seek in Scripture and from people who show fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:21) we Knock by repeating this process until we get what our Hearts truly desire.


The knocking process could take 1 minute or it could take a life time... If you have limits on your willingness to Ask Seek and Knock, you should know your magic number as it were will most likely be one more than your willing to give. It is when you surrender yourself completely to God that He will reveal Himself to you.

 

[ebia]

This question is of two parts.

What's the common Christian answer to the theodicy problem? Why does God allow "evil"?

Common answers are not usually good ones.

The best answer to why does God allow evil is the story of Noah.

Why is the reliance on faith and belief preferred to demonstrable evidence for the existence of the deity?

Faith (in the Christian context) does not mean "belief without evidence" but "believing and trusting".

What evidence would one take and how would one evaluate it?

Where are the miracles?

A miracle is not "something science cannot explain that therefor proves 'God-did-it'" but a wonderous thing that speaks of the Kingdom of God. If one has eyes to see them they are all around, if one doesn't one couldn't see one if it jumped up and hit you.

To answer the headline question "What's the Christian justification for its God's lack of action?": God has acted, is acting and will act. He began that action in the call of Abraham, took it forward through the call of Israel, brought it to its climax in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, continues it in the call of his church and will bring it to consumation at the final resurrection.

 

[Joveia]

What's the common Christian answer to the theodicy problem? Why does God allow "evil"?

This is a tricky one because Christianity says that God can intervene in history enough to accomplish His promises in the Bible (including the promise to watch over our lives), and yet there is so much suffering in the world.

An answer that I like is that we need to remember we are in a kind of hell. The Bible says hell is an ultimate separation from God. But we need to remember we are already separated from God in this life, because our wrongdoing has already disconnected us from the source of life (God) - Gen 2:17.

There's a phrase 'life wasn't meant to be easy' and you could change it to 'life in hell wasn't meant to be easy'. It wouldn't be surprising if our separation from God had really awful side effects (God describes it to Adam in the Genesis story as 'you will die the same day' you first do wrong.)

I have no idea how these side effects translate to actual instances of suffering. But I want to point out there could be really bad side effects from being cut off from God, some of which we see in the world.

Why is the reliance on faith and belief preferred to demonstrable evidence for the existence of the deity? Where are the miracles?

I think if you look at the beauty of the world and the elegance of the mathematical laws governing the universe then there is definitely evidence that a God exists. It is not proof in the sense that alternative views are possible, but it's evidence.

I think one reason why God doesn't provide proof that He exists is that He wants us to experience life without Him, which ultimately gets more people into heaven.

The parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11ff) is meant to illustrate the thought processes of people who come to Christ. In the story the Prodigal Son wants to lives for himself and do what he wants. But he finds there isn't really much fulfillment there. And so he comes back and in doing so, accepts the authority of his father.

In the same way if you look at the world people are finding happiness outside of God. And God, being a good God, will let them. But that happiness ultimately leads someone to choose to reject being with God forever, and thus reject eternal life.

But a lot of Christians have tried finding fulfillment outside of God and found that they never really found it. And so like the Prodigal Son they 'came back' to God and want to be with God forever. So those people will not choose to be separated from God forever.

God will achieve more of the latter person by letting humanity do its own thing, I think.

 

[childofGod31]

God allows evil because he gave us the reign of the earth. We ARE Evil. If God were to NOT allow evil, He would have to destroy humans.

He takes everything the evil dishes out on Him because we are what He loves (like a loving parent who takes abuse from their children)

He suffers much more pain than any of us. He feels our feelings and our pain. And besides OUR pain, He also feels His own: the pain of the cross and the pain of us rejecting and ignoring Him.

He also allows evil in order to extract it. For example, if we were trying to catch a criminal and he was hiding, we would have to use some sort of a bait to bring him out in order to catch him and execute him.
God is allowing evil in this sense. His goal is to finish it off: to purify us from all evil.

God is also allowing this to happen so that it would be a lesson to all as to what life on earth would be like when men don't obey Him. This way, people wouldn't want to repeat this "nightmare" and would obey Him in the future.

He is keeping Himself uninvolved for the reasons listed above.
And yet, He IS ACTIVELY involved in the life of those who love Him and gave their will and their life to Him. He only (for the most part) intervenes there where people have surrendered their free will to Him. He doesn't force the surrender. He is calling and is waiting until people do it on their own. And when they surrender to Him, He intervenes and blesses people. There are lots and lots of personal stories out there about God's intervention.


But evil grows. And in order to contain it, He sometimes intervenes world wide. He needs to moderate the level of evil (which we are spreading by being more and more evil) until His second coming (when He can eradicate it at some point).


He talks to me. And I bet He has some other purposes/plans as to why He doesn't just come down and start doing miracles and have people believe in Him.
Although, He already did that when Jesus came and people still didn't believe...
But there is a purpose, there is a plan. He is most wise. He is wisdom itself actually. Whatever He does it's because of great wisdom.

He is very loving. He is love itself. And I love Him. I did not see Him before (with my heart). But I've grown much closer to Him and I can see His love now. It's amazing. And I think the point will come when all people will see His love and will be amazed and ashamed of their evil behavior.

But right now He is looking for those who would love Him in spite of all circumstances. True love shines best in darkness. So like you find out who is your friend and who is not when you get into trouble, the same way God is finding out (if I can say it that way) who is His true friend and who is not, while everything not is well in the world.

He wants people to start seeking Him because they WANT HIM (not because they were forced). That's why He gave the free will in the first place. He wants a real relationship, not a dictatorship. He wants people to love Him, to WANT to fellowship with Him. So He stays away to see who would seek Him. And He said: I will be found by those who seek me with all their heart soul and mind.

He loves us more than any of us can imagine. And He wants to experience love from us as well. So He is extremely happy whenever a single person gives up seeking the pleasures of this life and starts to seek HIM instead.

And whoever finds Him, does NOT want to give Him up, because He is like a treasure. He is a dream come true. He is the fullfillment of our soul's longings. Why? Because He designed it to be so. He designed us for a relationship with Himself.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Florentine. Why does God allow "evil?" God does not send the evil, the evil is the result of an imperfect world. God allows it, for us to become " Overcomers" to learn to love and forgive as God loves us, and is waiting to forgive us. You also asked " why the reliance on faith, and belief preferred to evidence of the "deity"? I say this humbly and with love, When Jesus was on Earth He was asked by a Pharisee/Lawyer: " Master, which is the great Commandment in the law?" Jesus answered him, " love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great Commandment, the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these 2 Commandments hang all the law and the prophets." You said that you have no idea how to start asking. Jesus told us to Repent, to exchange our old selfish and wilful character into loving selflessly, and to forgive as God has forgiven us. God sees our hearts, Florentine, God will see your thoughts and your wishes, and Jesus taught us to pray: " Our Father in Heaven," that is the Way to God, Jesus is the Way, He died that we might live, and we are reconciled to God. " Ask and you will be answered, knock and the door will be opened for you." Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[TheNihilodeterminist]

If God created free will, he could have created the free will so that our free wills were more kind.

When people statistically more often gets depressed when their grandparents and parents were, without ever having met them (twin research), that tells me that the will can't be 100% free. If we assume that everything has a reason, and everything in the universe acts according to observable physical laws, free will turns into a ridiculous impossibility.

The christian excuse "freewill" is a comfortable cushion. It is nothing but ignorance, and as they say; ignorance is bliss.

 

[drich0150]

If God created free will, he could have created the free will so that our free wills were more kind.

If one is not free to be as cruel or as kind as he or she wishes then that persons "free will" is not truly free. It is a confined will that has limits. What would the point of this life be if God limited a person's will?

When people statistically more often gets depressed when their grandparents and parents were, without ever having met them (twin research), that tells me that the will can't be 100% free.

Do you honestly think that doctors were not diagnosing people with depression in the 1920's 30's & 40's because they were happier? Depression was not a viable diagnosis back then. If someone showed signs of depression they were prescribed a holiday, or cigarettes/alcohol. If that didn't work they were prescribed electro shock therapy. If that didn't work, they were sent to an insane asylum, and in extreme cases apart of the Brain was removed...
Did your twin study take into account the cultural differences, and advances that have occur in medicine over 3 generations? For example what does it say as to the number of people who were prescribed shock therapy back then, as compared to today? How many more insane asylums did our grandparents live with, than compared with today? How many times have cigarettes been perscribed in the last 30 years?

This argument or "study" is about as reliable as saying the daily average temperatures on average are 2 to 4 degrees higher than they were 80 years ago. For one there was little record keeping of daily average temperatures, and two the equipment we use today is accurate down to .001 of a degree. Do you know what they used back then? a common hardware store mercury filled thermometer. which could have a variance of 2 to 4 degrees... It all Depended on who painted on the numbers, and who measured out the mecury, and whether or not all of it made it into the thermometer durning the filling process.

Your study, like the one on temps are comparing apples and oranges. If you want to say that these "red apples" don't taste like the "orange apples" that's fine. I would simply suggest that you do not take your "Orange apples" to market.

If we assume that everything has a reason, and everything in the universe acts according to observable physical laws, free will turns into a ridiculous impossibility.

Apparently you do not fully comprehend the true meaning of free will. Free will is not the ability to fly like superman if we feel like doing so. Free will is the ability to choose a course of action not in God's expressed will. In other words, if anything not in God's expressed will is a sin, than the gift of Free Will is the ability to Sin/Choose.

and as they say; ignorance is bliss.

You do seem very "content/blissful" with your understandings and answers.