What's the catch?

[Bob8102]

Because I struggle with assurance of salvation, I am posting my response to a private message into"Struggles by Non-Christians:"

John,

Thank you for your long note; I read it all. At the beginning of it, you point out that some people have a problem with what "believing in Jesus" really means. Much is said about just taking Him at His word. When a simple presentation of the gospel is made, with what sounds like an "easy believism" premise, I sometimes respond by thinking: "What's the catch?" There must be a catch, because people don't typically want to do what they have to do to be saved. A day or two ago, I was reading Colossians chapter 1. It's particular, emphatic assertions about Jesus being LORD put me into a thinking mode. At the moment, I concluded according to the statement that "Jesus is Lord of all, or not at all." I came to understand that one has to let Jesus, consciously, be their Lord, moment by moment, on an ongoing basis. To me, it's like being willing to have someone put into your brain a device that reads your thoughts, motives, attitudes, etc., displays them to an onlooker, and through which device the onlooker can give you commands about changing your thoughts, motives, etc. Almost no one would be willing to allow some particular, mere human being, be in charge of them like that. Can you imagine allowing someone to put such a device into your brain such that the President could become in charge of you that way? Regardless of politics, no one would be willing to let a mere human, such as the President, have charge of them that way. That's at least in part because we know that any mere human has flaws and can fall into having evil, selfish motives themselves. We are supposed to know that God/Jesus is different. He is infinite, infinitely wise and purely holy. So, logically, we can trust Him to put a heart-and-brain, monitor-and-command device into us. But tell that to the human heart, which is evil and desperately wicked above all else. The human heart naturally rejects command-and-control by someone else, even if that someone else is God.

This leads to something about letting the Trinity give you a new heart.

John, thanks for your private message, but I may post this publicly, as well.

 

[David Lamb]

Because I struggle with assurance of salvation, I am posting my response to a private message into"Struggles by Non-Christians:"

John,

Thank you for your long note; I read it all. At the beginning of it, you point out that some people have a problem with what "believing in Jesus" really means. Much is said about just taking Him at His word. When a simple presentation of the gospel is made, with what sounds like an "easy believism" premise, I sometimes respond by thinking: "What's the catch?" There must be a catch, because people don't typically want to do what they have to do to be saved. A day or two ago, I was reading Colossians chapter 1. It's particular, emphatic assertions about Jesus being LORD put me into a thinking mode. At the moment, I concluded according to the statement that "Jesus is Lord of all, or not at all." I came to understand that one has to let Jesus, consciously, be their Lord, moment by moment, on an ongoing basis. To me, it's like being willing to have someone put into your brain a device that reads your thoughts, motives, attitudes, etc., displays them to an onlooker, and through which device the onlooker can give you commands about changing your thoughts, motives, etc. Almost no one would be willing to allow some particular, mere human being, be in charge of them like that. Can you imagine allowing someone to put such a device into your brain such that the President could become in charge of you that way? Regardless of politics, no one would be willing to let a mere human, such as the President, have charge of them that way. That's at least in part because we know that any mere human has flaws and can fall into having evil, selfish motives themselves. We are supposed to know that God/Jesus is different. He is infinite, infinitely wise and purely holy. So, logically, we can trust Him to put a heart-and-brain, monitor-and-command device into us. But tell that to the human heart, which is evil and desperately wicked above all else. The human heart naturally rejects command-and-control by someone else, even if that someone else is God.

This leads to something about letting the Trinity give you a new heart.

John, thanks for your private message, but I may post this publicly, as well.

The only thing I would not agree with in your post is the idea of letting Jesus be Lord, and letting the Trinity give you a new heart. That goes against what the bible says. For example, Paul, writing to Christians at Ephesus, reminds them that God saved them and they became Christians when they were still "dead in trespasses and sins," so not in any frame of mind to let God do anything (not that they could stop Him, of course!) Paul wrote:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Eph 2:1-6 NKJV)

 

[Joseph G]

Because I struggle with assurance of salvation, I am posting my response to a private message into"Struggles by Non-Christians:"

John,

Thank you for your long note; I read it all. At the beginning of it, you point out that some people have a problem with what "believing in Jesus" really means. Much is said about just taking Him at His word. When a simple presentation of the gospel is made, with what sounds like an "easy believism" premise, I sometimes respond by thinking: "What's the catch?" There must be a catch, because people don't typically want to do what they have to do to be saved. A day or two ago, I was reading Colossians chapter 1. It's particular, emphatic assertions about Jesus being LORD put me into a thinking mode. At the moment, I concluded according to the statement that "Jesus is Lord of all, or not at all." I came to understand that one has to let Jesus, consciously, be their Lord, moment by moment, on an ongoing basis. To me, it's like being willing to have someone put into your brain a device that reads your thoughts, motives, attitudes, etc., displays them to an onlooker, and through which device the onlooker can give you commands about changing your thoughts, motives, etc. Almost no one would be willing to allow some particular, mere human being, be in charge of them like that. Can you imagine allowing someone to put such a device into your brain such that the President could become in charge of you that way? Regardless of politics, no one would be willing to let a mere human, such as the President, have charge of them that way. That's at least in part because we know that any mere human has flaws and can fall into having evil, selfish motives themselves. We are supposed to know that God/Jesus is different. He is infinite, infinitely wise and purely holy. So, logically, we can trust Him to put a heart-and-brain, monitor-and-command device into us. But tell that to the human heart, which is evil and desperately wicked above all else. The human heart naturally rejects command-and-control by someone else, even if that someone else is God.

This leads to something about letting the Trinity give you a new heart.

John, thanks for your private message, but I may post this publicly, as well.

For the genuine believer who occasionally fears and doubts the validity of their salvation...

The very definition of saving faith is actively trusting in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. Is He the perfect Lamb Who lived a sinless life and fulfilled the law for us sinners? Yes. Is His blood enough to purchase our adoption and secure us firmly as *one with Him* from this day unto...

www.christianforums.com

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Because I struggle with assurance of salvation, I am posting my response to a private message into"Struggles by Non-Christians:"

John,

Thank you for your long note; I read it all. At the beginning of it, you point out that some people have a problem with what "believing in Jesus" really means. Much is said about just taking Him at His word. When a simple presentation of the gospel is made, with what sounds like an "easy believism" premise, I sometimes respond by thinking: "What's the catch?" There must be a catch, because people don't typically want to do what they have to do to be saved. A day or two ago, I was reading Colossians chapter 1. It's particular, emphatic assertions about Jesus being LORD put me into a thinking mode. At the moment, I concluded according to the statement that "Jesus is Lord of all, or not at all." I came to understand that one has to let Jesus, consciously, be their Lord, moment by moment, on an ongoing basis. To me, it's like being willing to have someone put into your brain a device that reads your thoughts, motives, attitudes, etc., displays them to an onlooker, and through which device the onlooker can give you commands about changing your thoughts, motives, etc. Almost no one would be willing to allow some particular, mere human being, be in charge of them like that. Can you imagine allowing someone to put such a device into your brain such that the President could become in charge of you that way? Regardless of politics, no one would be willing to let a mere human, such as the President, have charge of them that way. That's at least in part because we know that any mere human has flaws and can fall into having evil, selfish motives themselves. We are supposed to know that God/Jesus is different. He is infinite, infinitely wise and purely holy. So, logically, we can trust Him to put a heart-and-brain, monitor-and-command device into us. But tell that to the human heart, which is evil and desperately wicked above all else. The human heart naturally rejects command-and-control by someone else, even if that someone else is God.

This leads to something about letting the Trinity give you a new heart.

John, thanks for your private message, but I may post this publicly, as well.

Acknowledging Jesus as Lord doesn't imply we are able to be perfect in this life. No, our sanctification is an ongoing process until the day we die and we move onward. Faith is a whole person response that enables a person to wake up each day and say to the Lord, "If I messed up yesterday, I'm truly sorry, I'm going to do my best to try again and do better as I follow you and trust you for my salvation."

Anything other than this falls by the wayside as an all too common expression of OCD. Only Jesus was perfect, and Jesus perfectly saves us, despite our imperfections. That's "the catch."

 

[David Lamb]

Acknowledging Jesus as Lord doesn't imply we are able to be perfect in this life. No, our sanctification is an ongoing process until the day we die and move onward. Faith is a whole person response that enables a person to wake up each day and say to the Lord, "If I messed up yesterday, I'm truly sorry, I'm going to do my best to try again and do better as I follow you and trust you for my salvation."

Anything other than this falls by the wayside as an all too common expression of OCD. Only Jesus was perfect, and Jesus perfectly saves us, despite our imperfections.

Just checking, by OCD, do you mean "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder"?

 

[Bob8102]

The only thing I would not agree with in your post is the idea of letting Jesus be Lord, and letting the Trinity give you a new heart. That goes against what the bible says. For example, Paul, writing to Christians at Ephesus, reminds them that God saved them and they became Christians when they were still "dead in trespasses and sins," so not in any frame of mind to let God do anything (not that they could stop Him, of course!) Paul wrote:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Eph 2:1-6 NKJV)

It looks like you are a pure adherent to the doctrine of election. But the way I see it, it is a two-sided coin. On the one side is election, on the other is free will. It's a paradox. It's like trying to figure out the Trinity. The Bible has too many repent-or-perish type verses to ignore the free will side of the coin.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just checking, by OCD, do you mean "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder"?

Yes. And I mention it, David, because it is all too common today among too many people, along with an assortment of other frequent psychological difficulties that at times interfere with our understanding of faith in Christ.

 

[Joseph G]

Acknowledging Jesus as Lord doesn't imply we are able to be perfect in this life. No, our sanctification is an ongoing process until the day we die and we move onward. Faith is a whole person response that enables a person to wake up each day and say to the Lord, "If I messed up yesterday, I'm truly sorry, I'm going to do my best to try again and do better as I follow you and trust you for my salvation."

Anything other than this falls by the wayside as an all too common expression of OCD. Only Jesus was perfect, and Jesus perfectly saves us, despite our imperfections. That's "the catch."

Amen!

I like to live out what you are saying thusly.

At the end of each day Jesus washes our feet. Clean.

Upon waking, all past is forgotten as His mercies are new every morning and like you say - renewed resolve.

As to OCD, this is my opinion, see what you think? It is only a Disorder if one is obsessed with doubts and fears. Obsession with and focus on the Person of Jesus - and His mercy, grace, compassion and love... is Order - and true freedom and peace!

 

[Bob8102]

Just checking, by OCD, do you mean "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder"?

He no doubt means Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I have severe OCD, but I also have wavering faith. I will try to turn to, repent and surrender to Jesus, over and over. As one Christian poet put it: "So I prayed again to firm cement it, Making sure I really meant it." That poem starts with the line, "I gave my life to Jesus about a thousand times." But each attempt means that I concentrate on Jesus for no more than one to a few moments at a time. Then I waver away. Wavering faith and OCD combine to generate severe doubt in me.

 

[d taylor]

Because I struggle with assurance of salvation, I am posting my response to a private message into"Struggles by Non-Christians:"

John,

Thank you for your long note; I read it all. At the beginning of it, you point out that some people have a problem with what "believing in Jesus" really means. Much is said about just taking Him at His word. When a simple presentation of the gospel is made, with what sounds like an "easy believism" premise, I sometimes respond by thinking: "What's the catch?" There must be a catch, because people don't typically want to do what they have to do to be saved. A day or two ago, I was reading Colossians chapter 1. It's particular, emphatic assertions about Jesus being LORD put me into a thinking mode. At the moment, I concluded according to the statement that "Jesus is Lord of all, or not at all." I came to understand that one has to let Jesus, consciously, be their Lord, moment by moment, on an ongoing basis. To me, it's like being willing to have someone put into your brain a device that reads your thoughts, motives, attitudes, etc., displays them to an onlooker, and through which device the onlooker can give you commands about changing your thoughts, motives, etc. Almost no one would be willing to allow some particular, mere human being, be in charge of them like that. Can you imagine allowing someone to put such a device into your brain such that the President could become in charge of you that way? Regardless of politics, no one would be willing to let a mere human, such as the President, have charge of them that way. That's at least in part because we know that any mere human has flaws and can fall into having evil, selfish motives themselves. We are supposed to know that God/Jesus is different. He is infinite, infinitely wise and purely holy. So, logically, we can trust Him to put a heart-and-brain, monitor-and-command device into us. But tell that to the human heart, which is evil and desperately wicked above all else. The human heart naturally rejects command-and-control by someone else, even if that someone else is God.

This leads to something about letting the Trinity give you a new heart.

John, thanks for your private message, but I may post this publicly, as well.

-
​

Well if a person struggles with assurance this may come down to at least two possibilities.

One they have never actually believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.
What is believing in Jesus, it is to believe Jesus is who He says He is. The Son of God/The promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

Or they have believed in Jesus, but have been mislead by incorrect teaching that emphasizes a work based salvation. Saying something like, if you are not doing this or that for Jesus. Then you are not a true believer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Amen!

I like to live out what you are saying thusly.

At the end of each day Jesus washes our feet. Clean.

Upon waking, all past is forgotten as His mercies are new every morning and like you say - renewed resolve.

As to OCD, this is my opinion, see what you think? It is only a Disorder if one is obsessed with doubts and fears. Obsession with and focus on the Person of Jesus - and His mercy, grace, compassion and love... is Order - and true freedom and peace!

I generally like what you've said in your own way here. The only caveat in this is in my penchant for wanting to parse out terms in more precise denotative comparison so we get closer to understanding what we may really be wanting to say.

I would rather drop the term obsession in relation to our faith in Christ and just go with 'focus' along with devotion and love. Obsession carries a more negative psychological connotation that we want to try to help each other allay as much as possible. But otherwise, I like what you've said here, Joseph in that "Faith brings Order." That's a good point for us to remember.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

He no doubt means Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I have severe OCD, but I also have wavering faith. I will try to turn to, repent and surrender to Jesus, over and over. As one Christian poet put it: "So I prayed again to firm cement it, Making sure I really meant it." That poem starts with the line, "I gave my life to Jesus about a thousand times." But each attempt means that I concentrate on Jesus for no more than one to a few moments at a time. Then I waver away. Wavering faith and OCD combine to generate severe doubt in me.

... the truth is, we live in a society that also either brings about, or exacerbates, some of these psychological preconditions that a number of us more commonly have today. So, I sympathize that you have to struggle with OCD each day. I know that has to be difficult because it becomes harder to discern emotions, mental focus, and moral ability apart from each other and self-regulate these as un-asked for thoughts enter into our daily thoughts. ... and then, having questions about the nature of faith and the nature of doubt doesn't help things either, does it?

 

[timothyu]

Salvation is a matter of allegiance. Adam and Eve had a choice given to them and they took the wrong one. It is up to us to choose whether we want to follow their choice, self-interest upon which we have made the world in our own image, or choose instead to follow the will of God acting in servitude to Him and each other. It is a case of each of us against the world if we choose to repent of the ways of mankind. It is, however, all God has ever asked of us. Jesus' good news was that there would come a time, in our personal lives now perhaps if we choose wisely, or globally when the Will of God and not of man or rebellious elohim, would rule absolutely. We are told to show allegiance to that fact in praying the Lord's Prayer. Of course saying it is different than following through ourselves.

 

[Bob8102]

I tried to find again the Private Message John sent me, to which I was responding at the beginning of this post. I wanted to read it again, to see what I might get out of it. But it has disappeared off my email for some reason. In any case, I want to say the following:

Pastor JD Greear has written a book called, Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart: How To Know For Sure You Are Saved. At one point in it, he writes: "Do you believe that Jesus has paid it all? Do you know that He is Lord, and are you in a posture of submission to that Lordship? Then rest in Him."

Greear stresses the importance of 'a present posture of submission to the Lordship of Christ,' over any memory of having prayed a "sinner's prayer." What if I try to put myself into a posture of submission to Christ for one to a few moments, then stop trying? Over and over again, throughout the day, every day, for over fourteen years? Does that mean I'm saved? Or not saved? In my psyche, am I cynically trying to get saved on a technicality ("I trusted Christ; that was the moment of salvation")? Does this cynicism in my psyche mean that I am not saved? Does it mean that I am unsavable?

This wavering faith, combined with my OCD, has kept me in "the perfect storm" for over fourteen years. Sometimes, I think I sincerely trust and submit to Jesus. But moments later, I am no longer looking to nor trusting Him, and am trying to lean on Ephesians 1:13-14. On a number of occasions, I have set out to get saved by dedicating myself to the task until I get saved and am sure of it. I do this on the expectation that I will get saved if I strive to enter through the narrow gate, then, having entered, these incessant doubts will stop. Normally, this means I get to a moment that I think is the moment of salvation. But then my faith wavers and the incessant doubts come back. This state of being makes me dysfunctional.

 

[timothyu]

Sometimes, I think I sincerely trust and submit to Jesus.

John 14: 21 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14: 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Matthew 28: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Matthew 22: 37Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

If not....

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The key is to stop focusing on self. Servitude to God and fellow man does not focus on self.

 

[Bob8102]

Timothyu wrote:

"The key is to stop focusing on self. Servitude to God and fellow man does not focus on self."

But my Self is always there, always demanding to be on the throne of my life. I cannot ignore it for very long. Saying "stop focusing on Self" is like saying "Stop being a human being."

I put it this way: It's as if God is saying that unless I change myself into a monkey, I am going to hell. Well, I CANNOT change myself into a monkey, so I guess I'm going to hell. I know He isn't demanding that I change myself into a monkey, but He is demanding something equally impossible: that I change myself from one who lives for Self moment by moment to one who lives for Jesus, moment by moment. This is an impossible transformation. I cannot do it. So I guess I'm going to hell.

 

[Bob8102]

To the John who sent me the private message to which I was responding when I started this thread: If you could send me another copy. Strange things happen with my email, but if you send another copy, I will look into it some more.

 

[timothyu]

But my Self is always there, always demanding to be on the throne of my life. I cannot ignore it for very long. Saying "stop focusing on Self" is like saying "Stop being a human being."

This is true but at the same time when one takes the focus off of self it gives the human being a glimpse of how selfish our self-induced actions are in that it becomes clear how that is the root of all woes in the world of man. Monkeys are not self-aware and function as monkeys are supposed to. They don't go out of their way to be jerks. Man does not function as we are made to and instead of following the lead of God as artistic extensions of His will, we have 8 billion mini gods at present self-determining what 's in it for them rather than considering the effects on others while self-justifying their self-serving actions in every way possible . We have this knowledge that we can either misuse or use properly as did/do the elohim. It's about attitude, etiquette and morals. As Bill and Ted said on their excellent adventures, be good to each other. Perhaps in the resurrection those that grow to hate the 'self' oriented ways of man will happily relinquish their self awareness they stole in the Garden and return to their original state, this life being forgotten. Who knows?.

 

[David Lamb]

It looks like you are a pure adherent to the doctrine of election. But the way I see it, it is a two-sided coin. On the one side is election, on the other is free will. It's a paradox. It's like trying to figure out the Trinity. The Bible has too many repent-or-perish type verses to ignore the free will side of the coin.

You are correct that I believe in election. It's a biblical doctrine. But that really makes no difference to what I said, because as far as I am aware, nowhere do we read in the bible of the apostles telling unbelievers to let God do things in their lives (give them new birth, forgive their sins, etc.)