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What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

Rescued One

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Funny. The Book of Mormon doesn't tell about the laws and ordinances that have to be obeyed in order for the atonement to have any affect on your desired sakvation.

I'm sorry --- I thought you were a Mormon (Salt Lake City headquarters). That is why I brought up laws and ordinances.
 
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mmksparbud

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The gospel has everything to do with whatever is in the Bible!!
And it was the leaders of the Mormon church that led the way to plural wives--the very ones that the bible admonished to have only one wife. Which also went against the laws of this land. And even in the old testament, though allowed--it was not God's ideal--not even for the kings-

(Deu 17:17) Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.


However, men will do what they want and claim they are doing it under God's blessing.


There is no private interpretation to the plainly stated word of God: (None needed!)

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti_3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.



Epistle to Titus


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Epistle of Paul to Titus, usually referred to simply as Titus, is one of the three Pastoral Epistles (along with 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) traditionally attributed to Paul the Apostle and is part of the New Testament. It is addressed to Titus and describes the requirements and duties of elders and bishops.[1] Like 2 Timothy, this epistle is considered to be Paul's final instructions to early church leaders before his final departure


But then, I've no doubt you have your own ideas about who wrote what and when also.
 
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smaneck

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The gospel has everything to do with whatever is in the Bible!!

I'm talking about Paul's conception of the Gospel, not yours. You were quoting Paul.

And it was the leaders of the Mormon church that led the way to plural wives--the very ones that the bible admonished to have only one wife.

It goes against the second century author of Titus, yes.


Uh, the verse before that says that the king should not multiply his horses either. Does that mean a king can have only one horse?

There is no private interpretation to the plainly stated word of God: (None needed!)

Yeah, right.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Mighty selective in your quoting, aren't you. Further down wiki says:

"The Pastoral epistles are regarded by some scholars as being pseudepigraphical. On the basis of the language and content of the pastoral epistles, these scholars today doubt that they were written by Paul and believe that they were written after his death. The early Church did not agree. Critics claim the vocabulary and style of the Pauline letters could not have been written by Paul according to available biographical information and reflect the views of the emerging Church rather than the apostle's. These scholars date the epistle from the 80s CE up to the end of the 2nd century.[5] The Church of England's Common Worship Lectionary Scripture Commentary concurs with this view: "the proportioning of the theological and practical themes is one factor that leads us to think of these writings as coming from the post-Pauline church world of the late first or early second century"."

I might add that Titus is not mentioned by any of the Church Fathers prior to 170 A.D.
 
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A New Dawn

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It still has nothing to do with my post! I'll make it easier to respond to. Has anyone here claimed that they can do anything they want (good, bad or indifferent) because they are saved. I don't care about the "Christian counter-cult movement". I don't even know what that is. This is not a meta-discussion about that other issue, it is a discussion between you and us. So keep it between you and us.
 
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A New Dawn

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In case you missed it, when he wrote this post, he took the post that Ironhold made and turned it on it's head to make it apply to the LDS. What Ironhold said was clearly not something that Christianity today teaches (it is an heretical position), so drstevej reversed it on him and did the same thing. It is a debate technique to prove a point.
 
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EarlyChristianresearcher

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Here's what an Atheist, or the types of things an early anti-Christian would bring up too. How would you respond to your own tactics when mirrored back to you in Atheistic & early anti-Christian writings? Your whole points seem to endlessly be to vilify Joseph Smith, & you take great delight in so doing. Can biblical prophets pass your own tests?

Noah the naked drunk! (Gen. 9:20-22).

Lying Prophet Abram, Gen. 12:18-19.

Wife of Polig. Prophet treats other harshly, Gen. 16:1-8.

Man offers to give two of his virgin daughters so a group of men can have sex with them. Gen. 19:5-8.

Drunkin Incest, Gen. 19:33-36.

In family breeding, Gen. 20:9-12.

Prophet treating slaves badly, Gen. 21:4-14.

Josephus says Abraham concealed his plans for a human sacrifice from his wife. (See also: Gen. 22). Atheists wouldn't point out that there was no human sacrifice, an animal was slain instead, but a person exposed to Athiestic tactics would have to be told the whole story, or find it out for themselves).

Oath on the male private parts? Gen. 24:2-9; 47:29.

Magical rod changes skin colors on animals? Gen. 30:32, 37-41.

Onanism, porn type acts, does it really need to be in the bible? Gen. 38:9-10. Lord slaying people for minor things Christians get forgiveness of today? (Tactic: Judged by harsh laws of the past, not enforced today as much. Critics will point out laws of forefathers, & make an issue over how harsh they were back then, & judge people today by those laws in order to vilify the group breaking the same laws today, but not being punished in the same ways).

Divining cup used, Gen. 44:2-5.

Bloody covenants & rituals, Exod. 4:20-26.

Moses copies magical tricks of pagans? Exod. 7:8-12.

Magical rod turns river into blood? Exod. 7:19-22.

Brutal laws, slavery, punishments by death, strange ways of treating servants & family members, Exod. 21:7-30; 22:16-24.

Bloody rituals, Exod. 24:6-8.

Moses kills an Egyptian, hides his body in the sand, Exod. 2:11-12. (An Atheist would charge Moses did this to avoid cover up his "murder").

Prophet orders others to kill other people, Exod. 32:25-28.

There are many other examples of these types which I've seen Atheists & early to later anti-Christians will cite to vilify Christains. Thus, as anti-Mormon "Christians" look for things in LDS history & books to vilify LDS with, how would they, these critics answer the same types of charges & issues against the Bible? Can the bible pass the anti-Mormon "Christians'" own tests? How would Christians respond to these, while they continue to vilify Mormon prophets?
 
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ivanc0

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Sorry that Joseph did not read Jacob 2:28
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

But there a theory that Joseph did not wrote the letter for that seccion of DC but was approved on a copy of the revelation held by some one else, so there is no original for that commandment.

any way also Bringham young did not read Jacob 2:28.

Is interesting that God changes abomination to commandment!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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ivanc0

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24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
 
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Rescued One

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Jacob 2:29-30
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
 
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yesyoushould

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That isn't in the Book of Mormon.

I love mormons as any other. I just heard a person saying she was a Mormon, say that Jesus and the devil are brother's, and that doesn't make sense to me. I suppose it could be that people are raised differently from one another. The way she said it though, indicated that all mormons believe that, and I just don't understand it.
 
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yesyoushould

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Everyone is a spirit child of God.

This includes Jesus, Satan, and all of us.

Most critics of the church make it a point to deliberately skew this concept by removing the middle for the sake of shock value.

I understand that all is made by God. How does that relate to Jesus and Satan being brothers? And how come that is so important to even mention? Surely one cannot feel special for keeping such a secret from others. Are angels brethren or Gods own? It seems lacking of interest to call angels and fallen angels brethren. Did Adam have a brother? No. God created Adam.
 
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Rescued One

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I'm no longer Mormon, but Mormonism teaches that Jesus, humans and angels are all brothers and sisters because the god they call Heavenly Father and his wife Heavenly Mother are their parents. By making wrong choices a person or angel can become a "son of perdition" and end up in outer darkness.
 
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yesyoushould

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I never knew mormons believed in that. Thank you for clarifying.
 
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EarlyChristianresearcher

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What you have to understand is the anti-Mormon "Christians," attempting to vilify what they call "the Jesus of Mormonism," will often use what is called a shocking generalization tactics, which is to bring a phrase down to a simplified line: "The Jesus of Mormonism is the Spirit brother to the Devil." Or: "Jesus & the Devil are Brothers in Mormonism." (No references or explanations about the pre-existence are expounded on to give the surrounding information for this belief).

Atheistic & early anti-Christian vilification tactics use the same tactics to vilify Christians. Like saying: Christ drink blood. Or as Madeline O'Haria the American Atheists called it: "...barbaric habit of drinking blood of Jesus, and eating the flesh of Jesus..." Or it would be like expounding upon all the evils that the devil has done and then asking: "And do you know you created the devil? Jesus Did!

These are examples of shocking generalizations, a tactics used by critics all down throughout history.

The early anti-Christian, 2nd cent., Celsus, also used this tactic too, he generalized all early Christians beliefs into one, not pointing out their differences & how some had argued against Marcion, for example, & generalized that early Christians speak of two divine sons locked in combat with each other. In other places, Celsus shows he knew about the early Christians's beliefs in the pre-existence, how that they speak of a war in heaven, of the fall of the angels down into the infernal regions to be punished in chains. He asked: "Why would god need to fight with his own creations?" Tertullian, an 3rd cent., wrote of how Christ came to blot out the sins caused by the evil brother. Other early Christians talked of how Satan was jealous of his brother Jesus, in what Jesus would do. Christ is also often called the first born, taking part in a council in heaven, before the creation of the world. There are even earlier bibles that don't start with the creation, they start with the pre-existence, a life of spirits before the world was made. Earlier bible illustrations show the pre-existence, war in heaven, the devil & his followers fall, as fallen angels, being thrust out of heaven, their fall & crashing down into the underworld. Thousands of art works all over Christendom show these types of pre-existence themes too.

Bibliography:

Darell Thorpe, Pre-existence: Our Pre-earth Life in a Family in Heaven.
Radio shows. Another. Blog, scroll down to art works on war in heaven, etc.

Terryl L. Givens, When Souls Had Wings, Pre-mortal Existence in Western Thought,

Brent L. Top, Life Before Life.

A. S. Garretson, Primitive Christianity And Early Criticism, (Boston: Sherman, French & Company, 1912).

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting, (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1930—1958). (New York: Kraus reprint Company, 1970's).

Clifford Davidson, Editor, The Iconography of Heaven, Early Drama, Art, and Music, Monograph Series, 21, (Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications, Western Michigan University, 1994).

Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, Heaven: A History, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1988).

E. A. Wallis Budge, Coptic Apocrypha in the Dialect of Upper Egypt, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1913), 6 vols.

Ernst and Johanna Lehner, Devils, Demons, Death and Damnation, (New York: Dover Pictorial Archive Series, Dover Publishing Inc., 1971).

Dr. Huge Nibley, Enoch the Prophet.
Old Testament and Related Subjects, (1986).

J. Eugene Seaich: Ancient Texts and Mormonism, (Murray, Utah: Sounds of Zion, 1983). The Heavenly Council, Mysteries and Sacred Ordinances, (unpublished research paper).

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1981). Lucifer, The Devil In the Middle Age, 1984). The Prince of Darkness, Radical Evil and the Power of Good in History, 1988).

Nigel Morgan, Early Gothic Manuscripts, II, 1250 - 1285, A Survey of Manuscripts Illuminated in the British Isles - General Editor: J. J. G. Alexander, (London: Harvey Miller, 1988).

Genesis A & B.

R. Joseph Hoffmann, (translator) Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).
 
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Zoness

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So, can we then conclude that the author of the manuscript later known as the Book of Mormon had some knowledge of the aberrant forms of early Christianity and incorporated these into his storyline?

Some sections stylistically feel like I am reading the KJV. Word for word, almost. Which doesn't seem to match since the vernacular in the century of the publication of the KJV and the BoM would be pretty different.
 
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Albion

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Some sections stylistically feel like I am reading the KJV. Word for word, almost.
Well, you are. There are numerous direct quotations (not identified as quotations from the KJV, of course).

Which doesn't seem to match since the vernacular in the century of the publication of the KJV and the BoM would be pretty different.

That's explained in approximately the same way that strict Creationists explain fossil remains found in deep layers of sediment--God must have wanted to make it look that way and so deliberately caused it to appear out of time.
 
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Ironhold

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We're all the siblings of one another in the spiritual sense.

This makes Jesus and Satan our brothers, as well.

Most critics of the church don't want to admit that.
 
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