The story about being spirit brothers before being born on earth - is not at all applicable to fallen Angels who were never born on earth and who are STILL spirits. If you move to South America that does not mean you were spirit brothers in pre-existence in North America before you moved there. You simply moved -- no "birth" in South America at all.
You are equivocating in the extreme if you believe that simply moving across town or angels moving from heaven to earth is "prexisting spirit brothers" - the angels that fell are still spirits and simply moved ... no pre-existence simply continued existence.
Here then is a story that fits the Mormon story -- it involves spirits getting read to be born as humans on earth. That is very different than "moving from one town to another" and stories NOT involving a pre-existing spirit preparing to be born as a human.
This "spirit waiting to be born as a human" element is entirely missing from your other examples.. (In fact Angels were created ... and are still spirits to this very day according to Hebrews 1 - they are ALL spirits and so not humans)
Interesting myths - but your prior example about "getting ready to be born" is more in line with the doctrine you are trying to get at.
I never ask them for "ancient stories about demons" -- I ask them about their story regarding humans being spirit brothers in heaven before being phsyicaly born on earth. They say they do not know where that is in the BoM or the Bible.
1 Neph 1:8-11 a great source to find text which "does not talk about spirits getting ready to be born on earth"
Another great example of a text that does NOT say anything at all about spirits in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth.
Even Nephi 11:7 is not an example of spirit brothers in heaven getting read to be born as humans on earth.
No wonder those 19 year old Mormon missionaries admit that they don't know of anything in the BoM that talks about spirit brothers in heaven getting ready to be born as humans on earth - before being born on earth!!
Out of curiousity- are you saying that Christ was born as a baby twice on earth? and that twice on earth he died on the cross once in America and once in the Middle East?
Have you read Hebrews 10?
Interesting that you are "going there" for your source.
I think your focus on the devil to get support for the LDS doctrine about all humans having been spirit brother's in heaven prior to being born as humans on earth - is a lot of equivocation but also somewhat instructive that you need to go there.
in Christ,
Bob
Your whole response here is just gobbally gook, not much of a response at all, in attempting to claim that the whole pre-existence theme has to strickly be about "all humans having been spirit brothers, before coming down to earth" like they are moving from heaven to earth? Nor is your response attempting to re-interpret the Book of Mormon for us to be accepted. Just as your attempts to claim what we Mormons believe, how we are suppose to interpret our own doctrines, when we have a hard enough time ourselves with understanding
what is official, what is scholarly interpretations, what is speculations, opinions, & so forth.
But, it's OK, if you're ignorant about historic Christianity, haven't taken the time to check out the bibliography offered here, or don't know about how color symbolism connects up with the subject, or the wearing of white robes or black robes does too, that's OK. We all have to be willing to explore new areas to learn that which we don't know about. The fact is, those books cited & links offered, gives evidences for different aspects of studies done on the pre-existence, and making references to books about the devil & satanism is part of the study, Satan being one of the main fallen angels & the color black often being symbolically associated with him & his fallen angels. The war in heaven also being a part of the pre-existence drama too, which was also illustrated in earlier bibles, acted out in mystery or moral plays during the Middle ages to the present time.
Gustav Davidson, 1967,
A Dictionary Of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels, (New York; London: The Free Press, and Collier-Macmillan Limited).
Alice K. Turner, 1993,
The History of Hell, (New York, San Diego, U.S.A.; London, England: Harcourt Brace & Company).
Carol Zaleski,
Otherworld Journeys, Accounts of Near-Death Experiences In Medieval and Modern Times, (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).
Clifford Davidson, Editor,
The Iconography of Heaven,
Early Drama, Art, and Music, Monograph Series, 21, (Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications, Western Michigan University, 1994).
Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang,
Heaven: A History, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1988).
Maury Terry,
The Ultimate Evil, (Garden City, New York: Dolphin Book, Doubleday and Company, 1987).
L. W. Stokes,
Temple Texts and the Pre-Mortal Council, (Salt Lake City, Utah: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Historical Library, Archives, call slip # PQ M233.3 5874t, 1980), typescript paper presented to John M. Lundquist, November 23, 1980.
"Barnabas made the explicit symbolic connection between evil, darkness, and blackness, symbolism that was to have a long and sinister history in Christian. The Prince of Darkness, Jeffery Burton Russell, 1988, Cornell Un. Press, Ithaca, N.Y., p.54-55; (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, = (TANF), Vol.1:133, 151, 155.
Job 1:6, 38:4-8, 32:8, Ezk.28:13-19, Acts 2:22-36, 7:1, 30, 38, 13:29-37, 17:29-30, 38; & Num.16:22, 27:16; Eccl.12:7; Isa.9:6, 14:12-19,
30:1-5, 57:16, 63:9, 15-16; Zech.3:1, 12:1; Heb.12:9; Jer.1:5; Rom.6:3-11, 8:16, 29-30; Titus 1:1-2; 2 Tim.1:9; Heb. c.1-2; Jn.3:13, 6:33-51 & 62, 7:5, 28-33, 8:42, 57-9, 9:1-2, 12:44, & 49, 16:5, 28, 17:18; 20:21. Ex.3:1-14; Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; Rev.6:9-11; 8:10, 9:1, chap.12, 13:10; Gen.2:4-5; Acts 17:29; John 1:1-14, 3:13, 6:33-53, 62, 7:28-33, 8:42, 57-9, 12:31-2, 44, 49, 16:5, 17:5-24, 20:21, Prov.30:4; Exod.3:1-14; Phil.2:5-12; The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 1:5-15; Luke 10:18. Luke 4:33-41, 11:14-22; Jude 9; Mark 3:11-12. Amos 3:7; Eph.1:3-14, 3:3-15, 4:10-14; 1 Pet.1:19-21; 2 Nephi 2:5-30; Eccl.12:7; Luke 16:22-23; Heb.12:9; Gal.6:6-10; Jude 14-16; Isa.28:9-10; 1 Cor.2:6-16; 3:1-3, 15:12-28, Ps.xcvi.5; Deut. 32:8; Acts 17:26; Matt.24:34; Eph.4:7-10; Isa.14:12-19, 24:17-22, 26:19, 42:6-7, 49:8-9, 51:14; Psa.68:18, Rev.13:10, 1 Pet.3:15-22, 4:5-6; Lundy, op. cit., p.66; The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol.1, pp.27, 55, 57, 61, 83, 90, 105-6, 118-9, 139, 157-8, 167-173, 178, 181-86, 190-1, 213-31, 217, 219, 228, 230, 238, 241, 243, 250-1, 263, 264, 272, 285, 300-1, 331, 340, 346, 352, 356, 409-12, 421, 445-6,
449-51, 455-7, 462-3, 469, 478, 481, 488, 493-4, 499-500, 506, 510, 516-25, 543-4, 547, 549-53, 558, 560, 569, 572-3, & 575-7; Vol.2, pp.3, 10, 12, 61, 66-8, 73-4, 165-169, 215-219, 230-1, 253-4, 263-6, 453-4, & 582-3, etc., Vol.3, pp.17, note 1, & 34-8, 44, & p.536, Tertullian, On The Flesh of Christ, (Translated by Dr. Holmes), v. chap. xvii. Tertullian [A.D. 145-220], rejects some aspects of pre-existence, accepting others, (he said the spirit & body were created at the same time at birth), but he also accepted the Book of Enoch as scripture, and also wrote that "God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, [Jesus Christ] as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother" [the devil]. (TANF) Vol.4, pp.14-6, 23, 26, 32, 223, 263-4, 341-3, 405, 407, 422, 424, 427-8, 447, 464, 526-7, 538-9, 543-4, 558, 560, 565-71, 581, 591-607, 609, 632, 638-9, 640-1, 643-5, 648-9, 651-2, & 659-60; Vol.8, pp.52-6, 64, 73-4, 83-4, 105-110, 195; The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers, Vol.1, pp.82-88, Vol.5, pp.11, 17, 518-24; Vol.6, pp.xvi & xxv; Vol.12, xiii & xxix; Vol.14, p.312, 316-9; Clem. Alex., Strom., i. 15: Herodot., ii. 123; Clem. Rec.1:24; 7; Temple & Cosmos, Dr. Huge Nibley, p.194-5, & note 77 on p.209, Barnabas, Epistola Catholica 6-7, in PG 2:740-41; Approaching Zion, Nibley, p.580-1, & note 73, on p.613; A History of Christian Doctrine, Shedd, Vol.II, pp.3-10, (3rd Edition), 1883. The Lost Books of the Bible, p.143, 2nd Clement, chap.4:2; The Shepherd of Hermas, Sim. IX:110-111, p.149-151, Barnabas, chap.iv:7, v:10, & v:12; The Forgotten Books of Eden, 131; Interpreter's Dict. of The Bible, 3:869, etc.; New Eng. Bible, the `Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20,' David Winston's commentary, Anchor Bible Series, The Wisdom of Solomon (Garden City: Doubleday, 1982), n.17; Ancient Israel Myth & Legends, V.1 p.7, 42-3, etc., by Angelo S. Rappoport; Fallen Angels, by Bernard J. Bamberger, 1952, p.109-110; Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), Translated by R. Joseph Hoffmann, Pub. by Oxford Un. Press, 1987, p.55-7, 77, 80, 87, 89, 94, & 105; The Apocrypha & Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, 2, p.228, by R.H. Charles. Enoch, Book of, in Smith's Dictionary of the Bible. The Book of Enoch The Prophet, Trans. by Richard Laurence, LL.D., re-issued: Williams & Norgate 1892, pp.14, 46-7, 54, 60, 84-9, etc.; Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries, p.11, Doct.#21-22, citing from The Zohar the Book of Splendor, I:25a-25b, I:36a-36b, & on p.22, Doct. #42, citing IV:7a, & on p.30, Doct.#54, citing from: The Book of Enoch, Trans., from the Slavonic by W. R. Morfill, sec. Bk. En. XXIII:4-5; on p.38 Doct.#61, citing from: Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan, Qumran Cave 4., I(4Q158-4Q186) p.80., by John M. Allergo, with the collaboration of Arnold A. Anderson, Palestine Archaeological Museum Ecole Biblique Et Archeologique Francaise, Oxford Un. Pr. 1968. And on p.39-40, Doct.#64, citing from: The Apocryphon of John, from: Gnosis: Character & Testimony, Robert Haardt, trans., into Eng. by J.F. Hendry, -The Apocry. of Jn., p.192-194., 1971. &: Josephus Complete Works, Trans. by William Whiston, A.M., Pub. by Kregel Pub. Mich., 1960, 1978, 1981-1984, see: Antiquities of the Jews, p.28, & n.*, of bk.1, c.3; The Gospel of the Great Spirit, 1990; J. Eugene Seaich's works: The Heavenly Council, Mysteries & Sacred Ordinances, pp.1-10, an unpub. research paper; Ancient Text & Mormonism, 1983, p.31-42, 127-8, & notes 153-9, etc.; Mormonism, The Dead Sea Scrolls & The Nag Hammadi Texts, Seaich, p.5-12, etc.; The Homilies of Saint Jerome, pp.106-7, & p.353, Pub. The Cath. Un. Press, Wash. DC 1964; Forerunners & Rivals Of Christianity, (330 B.C. to 330 A.D.), by Francis Legge, 1964, 2 Vols. in 1, see: V.2, pp.42-3; Prolegomena C. II & III, & De Antima et Resurrectione. Dogmengeschichte 4, I. 211; etc. Paradise Lost, b.i, 323-431. Art of the Early Renaissance, by Michael Batterberry, 1964, pl.130. p.120-1, etc.; Anastasis (The Making of An Image), by Anna D. Kartsonis, Pub. by Princeton Un. Pr. N.J., 1986, pp.4-6, 13-14, 16, 21-22, 26 & 29, etc.; Dictionary of Christian Lore & Legend, by JCJ Metford, 1983; Early Gothic Manuscripts (II) 1250-1285, by Nigel Morgan, 1988, fig.37, (Paris, Bibl. Nat., fr.403. f,8v & f.19v (cat.103); Early Christian Art, text, Volbach, fig.93. Classical Inspiration In Medieval Art, Oakeshott, pl.80. The Carolingian Renaissance, Hubert & Volbach. Art Of the Medieval World, Zarnecki, fig.132, p.135. The Medieval Treasury, Ed., Williamson, p.116-7; Treasures From The Kremlin, (An Exhibition from the State of Museums of the Moscow Kremlin at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, N.Y., May 19-Sept.1979, and Grand Palais, Paris, Oct. 12, 1979 & Jan. 7, 1980), Pub. by Metro. Mus., of Art, N.Y., Distrib. by Harry N. Abrams, Inc., p.18-19, 131-2.
Origen, Strom, VI, 14, col. 337; Iv, 18, col. 1321; De Principiis, II, 9, 6, also Adversus Celsum, Iv, 70, 54; cited by Tixeront, Historie des Dogmes dan l'Antiquite chretienne, vol. 1, p. 312.
Paradise Lost, John Milton, (An Authoritative Text Backgrounds and Sources Criticism), Edited by Scott Elledge, Cornell Un., Pub. by W.W. Norton & Co., N.Y., Lon., 1975, p.8-9, & 324-5. The 2nd edition of an original title reads: Paradife Loft. A Poem in Twelve Books. Pre-existence, Wisdom, & the Son of Man, by R.G. Hamerton-Kelly, p.9-10, 16-21, 39, 53, 112, 124-130, 146-153, 174-189, etc.
Closer to the Light, by Dr. Melvin Morse, M.D., 1990, p.6-7. Beyond the Veil, by Lee Nelson, 1988 Cedar Fort Inc., Orem, Ut., pp.37-42. "I Wanted Those 2 Little Girls" by Janet Christensen, c.3. Ibid., 1990, vol.3, c.12, pp.87-90, "I Saw My Children," by Juliann Johnson Bradshaw. Martin Tanner, interviews of some people who have had NDEs. KTKK 630 AM Radio, Ut. "Religion On The Line" hosted by Martin Tanner, Nov. 5 & 12, 1989, & July 15, 1990, Also Betty Eadie on KTKK, as Mr. Tanner's guest, June 7, 1992, Dec. 20, 1992, & Feb. 7, 1993; Mrs. Eadie's Embraced by the Light, 1992; The Salt Lake Chapter Of The "International Association For Near Death Studies" = (IANDS), or the "Friends of IANDS." = (FOINDS), News Letters numbers 4-7, Nov. 1992, #4, Dec. 1992 -- JANUARY 1993, #5. Feb. 1993, #6, & March 1993, #7. LIFE BEFORE LIFE, by Sarah Hinze, 1993.