What's more important, truth or the Bible?

Lukaris

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The overall message from the Lord tells us His truth is in the Bible:

Luke 24:44New King James Version (NKJV)

The Scriptures Opened

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and theProphets and the Psalms concerning Me.”


 
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The overall message of the Gospel is from the Old Testament:


Matthew 22:36-40New King James Version (NKJV)

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And thesecond is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Footnotes:





This is what the Lord said He previously fulfills:

Matthew 5:17New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

 
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South Bound

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skepticlogician said:
'What's more important for you, is it truth, regardless of all its implications, or is it the Bible, regardless of what the truth actually is?

This is a logical fallacy commonly known as a false dichotomy.
 
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aiki

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1. Incredible unity of themes.
Except where there are contradictions and errors.

The themes of which I speak are quite unaffected by copyist errors or "contradictions." So far, I haven't encountered a Bible "contradiction" that atheists have offered that wasn't more apparent than real and for which a reasonable explanation couldn't be offered.

2. Fulfilled prophecy.
This particular area of the Bible I need to investigate more. Suffice it to say that Nostradamus and others can also proclaim having fulfilled prophecies as part of their repertoire. Does that make them divine or prophets of God?

The Bible is in a class of its own concerning fulfilled prophecy. I would not lump it in with the likes of Nostradamus who suffers greatly by the comparison. I know of no other prophecies that have been fulfilled with the same number, completeness and degree of detail as those of the Bible.

3. Archaeological/historical accuracy.
It's possible that evidence has been dug up to confirm places or possibly names of characters in the Bible, but that's miles away from validating or confirming the miracles and mythical stories that can ALSO be found in the Bible. Books of any kind mention places and people that actually existed, that doesn't make the books divinely inspired, does it?

It is not merely "possible" that the places and people named in Scripture are well-verified by archaeology, it is established fact. And what this verification does, in part, is make it clear that whatever "mythological" stories it relates are not intended to be understood as mere myth, but actual events in history. This fidelity to historical fact does lend a certain measure of credence to the stories of the supernatural, in my opinion. The supernatural elements of various Bible stories are perfectly in keeping with a supernatural Creator-God who intervenes in human history. I would expect such supernatural events when God enters the mix. I don't see, then, that the supernatural nature of some of the accounts of the Bible in any way diminish the veracity of them.

Does the historical/archaeological accuracy of the Bible alone establish it as divine in origin? No. But in concert with all of the reasons I have for belief in the divine origin of the Bible, the cumulative weight of these reasons tips in favor of my belief, I think. No one reason (except maybe fulfilled prophecy) is, by itself, a knock-out punch in favor of the divine origin of Scripture.

4. Survivability.
Does the fact that Bible scriptures have survived for centuries make them divinely inspired? There many ancient texts that are way older and have survived to these days, yet you wouldn't say they are divinely inspired because of how old they are, would you?

Well, the Bible, you see, has come under some very serious attempts to totally eradicate it from existence. For example, the Roman Emperor Diocletian in 303 AD ordered the destruction of all Bibles and the Christians who cherished them. He even built a monument on which was inscribed,
"Extincto nomene Christianorum" (the name Christian is extinguished). Twenty-five years later, Diocletian was dead and the new Emperor Constantine commissioned fifty copies of the Bible to be prepared at government expense.

I am not, then, arguing for the divine origin of the Bible merely from its age. It has withstood enormous antagonism at times and continues to survive. The French philosopher Voltaire declared, "One hundred years from my day, there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity-seeker." One hundred years later Voltaire was dead and his own printing press was being used to print Bibles. I think it is, then, indicative of the divine origin of the Bible that it remains intact despite the sometimes enormous hostility it has aroused over the centuries in those like Voltaire.

5. Popularity and transforming impact upon people and cultures.
Popularity? Really?
And regarding this 'transforming impact' you talk about, like I mentioned in my response to TheyCallMeDavid, Self-help and other religions' texts easily fall into this category.

As I explained, no one of these points stands by itself; but together they establish reasonable grounds for believing as I do about the Bible. The Bible's popularity is a legitimate point to ponder. It has sustained worldwide popularity that few, if any, other books have enjoyed. But this makes sense if it really is the Word of God.

I don't think you could find any self-help book or other religious text that has had the positive impact upon many cultures that the Bible has had. It is acknowledged by secular and religious scholars alike as a singular text in both its literary quality and its wide influence upon various cultures. Likening it to a self-help book indicates a serious misunderstanding of the history and content of the Bible. Such a comparison might also reveal an antagonistic bias, as well.

Regarding the Bible, the great archaeologist W. F. Albright remarked,

“The Bible towers in content above all earlier religious literature; and it towers just as impressively over all subsequent literature in the direct simplicity of its message and the catholicity of its appeal to men of all lands and times” (The Christian Century, November 1958).

The teachings of the Bible have been directly responsible for the establishment of universities, schools, hospitals, orphanages, charities, and most of the rights and freedoms people in enjoy in western democratic nations. I'd say that warrants a spot in my list of reasons to believe it is more than "just another book."

Selah.

 
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aiki

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1. Incredible unity of themes.
Except where there are contradictions and errors.

The themes of which I speak are quite unaffected by copyist errors or "contradictions." So far, I haven't encountered a Bible "contradiction" that atheists have offered that wasn't more apparent than real and for which a reasonable explanation couldn't be offered.

2. Fulfilled prophecy.
This particular area of the Bible I need to investigate more. Suffice it to say that Nostradamus and others can also proclaim having fulfilled prophecies as part of their repertoire. Does that make them divine or prophets of God?

The Bible is in a class of its own concerning fulfilled prophecy. I would not lump it in with the likes of Nostradamus who suffers greatly by the comparison. I know of no other prophecies that have been fulfilled with the same number, completeness and degree of detail as those of the Bible.

3. Archaeological/historical accuracy.
It's possible that evidence has been dug up to confirm places or possibly names of characters in the Bible, but that's miles away from validating or confirming the miracles and mythical stories that can ALSO be found in the Bible. Books of any kind mention places and people that actually existed, that doesn't make the books divinely inspired, does it?

It is not merely "possible" that the places and people named in Scripture are well-verified by archaeology, it is established fact. And what this verification does, in part, is make it clear that whatever "mythological" stories it relates are not intended to be understood as mere myth, but actual events in history. This fidelity to historical fact does lend a certain measure of credence to the stories of the supernatural, in my opinion. The supernatural elements of various Bible stories are perfectly in keeping with a supernatural Creator-God who intervenes in human history. I would expect such supernatural events when God enters the mix. I don't see, then, that the supernatural nature of some of the accounts of the Bible in any way diminishes the veracity of them.

Does the historical/archaeological accuracy of the Bible alone establish it as divine in origin? No. But in concert with all of the reasons I have for belief in the divine origin of the Bible, the cumulative weight of these reasons tips in favor of my belief, I think. No one reason (except maybe fulfilled prophecy) is, by itself, a knock-out punch in favor of the divine origin of Scripture.

4. Survivability.
Does the fact that Bible scriptures have survived for centuries make them divinely inspired? There many ancient texts that are way older and have survived to these days, yet you wouldn't say they are divinely inspired because of how old they are, would you?

Well, the Bible, you see, has come under some very serious attempts to totally eradicate it from existence. For example, the Roman Emperor Diocletian in 303 AD ordered the destruction of all Bibles and the Christians who cherished them. He even built a monument on which was inscribed,
"Extincto nomene Christianorum" (the name Christian is extinguished). Twenty-five years later, Diocletian was dead and the new Emperor Constantine commissioned fifty copies of the Bible to be prepared at government expense.

I am not, then, arguing for the divine origin of the Bible merely from its age. It has withstood enormous antagonism at times and continues to survive. The French philosopher Voltaire declared, "One hundred years from my day, there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity-seeker." One hundred years later Voltaire was dead and his own printing press was being used to print Bibles. I think it is, then, indicative of the divine origin of the Bible that it remains intact despite the sometimes enormous hostility it has aroused over the centuries in those like Voltaire.

5. Popularity and transforming impact upon people and cultures.
Popularity? Really?
And regarding this 'transforming impact' you talk about, like I mentioned in my response to TheyCallMeDavid, Self-help and other religions' texts easily fall into this category.

As I explained, no one of these points stands by itself; but together they establish reasonable grounds for believing as I do about the Bible. The Bible's popularity is a legitimate point to ponder. It has sustained worldwide popularity that few, if any, other books have enjoyed. But this makes sense if it really is the Word of God.

I don't think you could find any self-help book or other religious text that has had the positive impact upon many cultures that the Bible has had. It is acknowledged by secular and religious scholars alike as a singular text in both its literary quality and its wide influence upon various cultures. Likening it to a self-help book indicates a serious misunderstanding of the history and content of the Bible. Such a comparison might also reveal an antagonistic bias, as well.

Regarding the Bible, the great archaeologist W. F. Albright remarked,

“The Bible towers in content above all earlier religious literature; and it towers just as impressively over all subsequent literature in the direct simplicity of its message and the catholicity of its appeal to men of all lands and times” (The Christian Century, November 1958).

The teachings of the Bible have been directly responsible for the establishment of universities, schools, hospitals, orphanages, charities, and most of the rights and freedoms people in enjoy in western democratic nations. I'd say that warrants a spot in my list of reasons to believe it is more than "just another book."

Selah.

 
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aiki

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1. Incredible unity of themes.
Except where there are contradictions and errors.

The themes of which I speak are quite unaffected by copyist errors or "contradictions." So far, I haven't encountered a Bible "contradiction" that atheists have offered that wasn't more apparent than real and for which a reasonable explanation couldn't be offered.

2. Fulfilled prophecy.
This particular area of the Bible I need to investigate more. Suffice it to say that Nostradamus and others can also proclaim having fulfilled prophecies as part of their repertoire. Does that make them divine or prophets of God?

The Bible is in a class of its own concerning fulfilled prophecy. I would not lump it in with the likes of Nostradamus who suffers greatly by the comparison. I know of no other prophecies that have been fulfilled with the same number, completeness and degree of detail as those of the Bible.

3. Archaeological/historical accuracy.
It's possible that evidence has been dug up to confirm places or possibly names of characters in the Bible, but that's miles away from validating or confirming the miracles and mythical stories that can ALSO be found in the Bible. Books of any kind mention places and people that actually existed, that doesn't make the books divinely inspired, does it?

It is not merely "possible" that the places and people named in Scripture are well-verified by archaeology, it is established fact. And what this verification does, in part, is make it clear that whatever "mythological" stories it relates are not intended to be understood as mere myth, but actual events in history. This fidelity to historical fact does lend a certain measure of credence to the stories of the supernatural, in my opinion. The supernatural elements of various Bible stories are perfectly in keeping with a supernatural Creator-God who intervenes in human history. I would expect such supernatural events when God enters the mix. I don't see, then, that the supernatural nature of some of the accounts of the Bible in any way diminishes the veracity of them.

Does the historical/archaeological accuracy of the Bible alone establish it as divine in origin? No. But in concert with all of the reasons I have for belief in the divine origin of the Bible, the cumulative weight of these reasons tips in favor of my belief, I think. No one reason (except maybe fulfilled prophecy) is, by itself, a knock-out punch in favor of the divine origin of Scripture.

4. Survivability.
Does the fact that Bible scriptures have survived for centuries make them divinely inspired? There many ancient texts that are way older and have survived to these days, yet you wouldn't say they are divinely inspired because of how old they are, would you?

Well, the Bible, you see, has come under some very serious attempts to totally eradicate it from existence. For example, the Roman Emperor Diocletian in 303 AD ordered the destruction of all Bibles and the Christians who cherished them. He even built a monument on which was inscribed,
"Extincto nomene Christianorum" (the name Christian is extinguished). Twenty-five years later, Diocletian was dead and the new Emperor Constantine commissioned fifty copies of the Bible to be prepared at government expense.

I am not, then, arguing for the divine origin of the Bible merely from its age. It has withstood enormous antagonism at times and continues to survive. The French philosopher Voltaire declared, "One hundred years from my day, there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity-seeker." One hundred years later Voltaire was dead and his own printing press was being used to print Bibles. I think it is, then, indicative of the divine origin of the Bible that it remains intact despite the sometimes enormous hostility it has aroused over the centuries in those like Voltaire.

5. Popularity and transforming impact upon people and cultures.
Popularity? Really?
And regarding this 'transforming impact' you talk about, like I mentioned in my response to TheyCallMeDavid, Self-help and other religions' texts easily fall into this category.

As I explained, no one of these points stands by itself; but together they establish reasonable grounds for believing as I do about the Bible. The Bible's popularity is a legitimate point to ponder. It has sustained worldwide popularity that few, if any, other books have enjoyed. But this makes sense if it really is the Word of God.

I don't think you could find any self-help book or other religious text that has had the positive impact upon many cultures that the Bible has had. It is acknowledged by secular and religious scholars alike as a singular text in both its literary quality and its wide influence upon various cultures. Likening it to a self-help book indicates a serious misunderstanding of the history and content of the Bible. Such a comparison might also reveal an antagonistic bias, as well.

Regarding the Bible, the great archaeologist W. F. Albright remarked,

“The Bible towers in content above all earlier religious literature; and it towers just as impressively over all subsequent literature in the direct simplicity of its message and the catholicity of its appeal to men of all lands and times” (The Christian Century, November 1958).

The teachings of the Bible have been directly responsible for the establishment of universities, schools, hospitals, orphanages, charities, and most of the rights and freedoms people enjoy in western democratic nations. I'd say that warrants a spot in my list of reasons to believe it is more than "just another book."

Selah.

 
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oi_antz

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skepticlogician, are you suggesting that everything in the bible is not true? I don't think that is wise or practical. I think truth is most important, and Jesus appears to have thought so too. It appears that His disciples also demonstrated the same convictions. It is for this reason that I don't believe everything in the bible is true, and I justify that belief on the grounds that we don't even know who wrote some of the scriptures or where the information originated. However, it does make better sense to believe that the accounts of Jesus' life are mostly true, even while acknowledging the capacity for human error, but while seeing that for the most part they do appear to contain a significant amount of fact. In my opinion those facts are sufficient to see that there was a person called Jesus at that time, whose values and actions put Him in fatal conflict with authorities. Are you saying that you don't believe that is true? If so, how do you justify that belief when you consider that the events in history at and directly after that time indicate that it definitely did happen?
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Wrong. The OP implies truth and the Bible are not the same thing, regardless of whether the Bible is true or not.

Even if your analogy was 100% applicable, the fact that fruit and apples are two different concepts doesn't imply that therefore apples are forcefully NOT fruit.

See? The question wasn't meaningless. So, with the last thing you mentioned in mind, would agree that truth is more important than the Bible?

I think, at some point, any of us that have been mildly exposed to the Bible had to make a judgment about whether it was true or not. We had to decide, regardless of how ill-informed the decision, whether or not the Bible was to come under our umbrella of Truth.

How can something which we ourselves determined as true be more important than Truth?

Truth is the most important. To say otherwise is to admit you would rather knowingly live in a self-delusion.
 
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Tree of Life

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I'm aware that the great majority of Bible believers will probably say something along the lines of "The Bible IS the truth", "One can only find the truth in the Bible", "they are both one and the same (truth/Bible)", etc... and that's fine. Even though I myself don't believe the Bible to be true any longer, I was born and raised christian, I was very active in church, always participating in Bible competitions, finishing in the top spots most of the time, I'm also I musician so, I was part of the worship ministry most of the time, pianist of the choir, etc... What I'm trying to get at is that I know exactly what it feels like to really, really believe the Bible is the absolute truth because I truly believed in it pretty much all thirty years out of the first thirty years of my life.

So, the question is not "do you believe the Bible is true" or "do you think the Bible and truth are one and the same", no... my question is 'What's more important for you, is it truth, regardless of all its implications, or is it the Bible, regardless of what the truth actually is?

I would love to hear your positions!
Cheers!

To answer a question with a question:

What's more important, truth or science?

Doesn't that sound like somewhat of a silly question? Your question might sound equally as strange to those who believe that the Bible is the word of God.
 
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oi_antz

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Your question might sound equally as strange to those who believe that the Bible is the word of God.
OP, please carefully make the distinction of what the bible is, compared to what the word of God is. John Chapter 1 says "In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God". However, the bible was written by men over thousands of years, was not dictated by God, and was not with God in the beginning and it clearly is not God. What it clearly is though, is a record of events and thoughts of men who have had some faith in God. The proper understanding of what "Word of God" means will not present the problem this poster is suggesting, because the truth is that the bible does potentially contain wrong information. There is no guarantee about that, and especially as we do not know the origins of some of it, to trust that it is true is unjustified and irrational, and cannot be reasonably argued to be true until such evidence becomes available that is sufficient to prove that the claims are factual and true. Therefore, I think all problems and the one that this poster is suggesting for an example, are born of false beliefs. If we all believed only true things and did not believe anything that was not true, I think that nothing would ever be wrong. I don't think that is entirely achievable fwiw, but it should be our goal just the same. Therefore, take this as a further statement that truth is more important than the bible IMO, but it is just as much more important than refuting the bible too, which forces many anti-religious people to choose hypocrisy instead of integrity.

Are you still engaged in this discussion? Do you have feedback or problems to share about what has been said?
 
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Hey guys, thanks for your responses. I was a bit busy for the last couple weeks, but I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. From time to time I may encounter small periods of time in which I'm not able to respond for a few days, you know, I also get quite busy at times as anyone can. I will respond to the latest posts shortly.
 
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This is a logical fallacy commonly known as a false dichotomy.

I think I understand why you would see my question as a false dichotomy if you believe that the Bible contains 100% truth in it. So, would this question make more sense to you: If you were shown full proof of a clear error, falsehood or contradiction in the Bible, would you acknowledge that it can no longer be claimed that the Bible is 100% true or would you rather dismiss and ignore the truth of the fact that the error/contradiction exists in an attempt to save the Bible's status as containing 100% truth?
 
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skepticlogician, are you suggesting that everything in the bible is not true? I don't think that is wise or practical.

Why does it have to be "everything" not true? Did I say anything along those lines?
I'm perfectly fine acknowledging that the Bible contains many truths. But over the years I've found that it also contains quite a few errors and contradictions.

I think truth is most important
Completely agree...

, and Jesus appears to have thought so too. It appears that His disciples also demonstrated the same convictions. It is for this reason that I don't believe everything in the bible is true, and I justify that belief on the grounds that we don't even know who wrote some of the scriptures or where the information originated.
Completely agree as well.

However, it does make better sense to believe that the accounts of Jesus' life are mostly true, even while acknowledging the capacity for human error, but while seeing that for the most part they do appear to contain a significant amount of fact. In my opinion those facts are sufficient to see that there was a person called Jesus at that time, whose values and actions put Him in fatal conflict with authorities. Are you saying that you don't believe that is true?
Hmm... Interestingly enough, I would agree that it's very possible that a man called Jesus' existed, preached an apocalyptic message and got into deep trouble with authorities which eventually led to his execution.

However, the fact that he may have existed does not automatically promote to truths the claim of his divinity nor any of the miraculous events that are claimed to have happened around him. Otherwise, you would have to accept as factual any writing or book that contains mythical or supernatural stories as long as these stories refer to, mention or are about people that actually existed.

If so, how do you justify that belief when you consider that the events in history at and directly after that time indicate that it definitely did happen?

Not sure I follow, can you give me an example?
 
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I think, at some point, any of us that have been mildly exposed to the Bible had to make a judgment about whether it was true or not. We had to decide, regardless of how ill-informed the decision, whether or not the Bible was to come under our umbrella of Truth.

How can something which we ourselves determined as true be more important than Truth?

Truth is the most important. To say otherwise is to admit you would rather knowingly live in a self-delusion.

I completely agree. Thank you.
 
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To answer a question with a question:

What's more important, truth or science?

Truth! Absolutely.

Doesn't that sound like somewhat of a silly question? Your question might sound equally as strange to those who believe that the Bible is the word of God.

No, I don't think it sounds strange or silly in the least. Whenever a new piece of knowledge is discovered, analyzed, proven to be true, and yet it goes directly against any current scientific theory, the scientific theory must be revised and, if it can't account for this piece of newly discovered knowledge by any means, then a better scientific theory must be found or formulated that can, still perfectly explain the existing body of knowledge as well as account for this newly discovered nugget of knowledge. That's how science works.
 
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oi_antz

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Why does it have to be "everything" not true? Did I say anything along those lines?
I'm perfectly fine acknowledging that the Bible contains many truths. But over the years I've found that it also contains quite a few errors and contradictions.


Completely agree...


Completely agree as well.


Hmm... Interestingly enough, I would agree that it's very possible that a man called Jesus' existed, preached an apocalyptic message and got into deep trouble with authorities which eventually led to his execution.

However, the fact that he may have existed does not automatically promote to truths the claim of his divinity nor any of the miraculous events that are claimed to have happened around him. Otherwise, you would have to accept as factual any writing or book that contains mythical or supernatural stories as long as these stories refer to, mention or are about people that actually existed.



Not sure I follow, can you give me an example?
Acts chapter two:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV
 
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Radagast

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If you were shown full proof of a clear error, falsehood or contradiction in the Bible

I would think there was a problem with the particular verse in question, whether an interpretation problem, a translation problem, a manuscript problem, or something else.

But none of the "errors, falsehoods, or contradictions" I've been shown hold water.
 
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Radagast

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Interestingly enough, I would agree that it's very possible that a man called Jesus' existed, preached an apocalyptic message and got into deep trouble with authorities which eventually led to his execution.

No historian doubts this.
 
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Your question is too broad to answer without some clarification.

How would you define the term truth?
Must something contain all that is true to be considered true or could it contain part of all that is true and be considered true as long as it does not contain falsehood.
Do you consider the general more important than the specific or the group more important than the individuals that make up the group? Why or why not?
Is the parable of the Good Samaritan truth or untruth in your opinion?

Also I think you have made at least one claim that needs substantiation.You claim there are errors the Bible. What mistakes are you speaking of? Would you consider a mistranslation an error? Misspelling? If something was included that the author meant to be included then is it an error or just something that the reader does not find to be concretely factual?
 
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