What's more important, truth or the Bible?

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I'm aware that the great majority of Bible believers will probably say something along the lines of "The Bible IS the truth", "One can only find the truth in the Bible", "they are both one and the same (truth/Bible)", etc... and that's fine. Even though I myself don't believe the Bible to be true any longer, I was born and raised christian, I was very active in church, always participating in Bible competitions, finishing in the top spots most of the time, I'm also I musician so, I was part of the worship ministry most of the time, pianist of the choir, etc... What I'm trying to get at is that I know exactly what it feels like to really, really believe the Bible is the absolute truth because I truly believed in it pretty much all thirty years out of the first thirty years of my life.

So, the question is not "do you believe the Bible is true" or "do you think the Bible and truth are one and the same", no... my question is 'What's more important for you, is it truth, regardless of all its implications, or is it the Bible, regardless of what the truth actually is?

I would love to hear your positions!
Cheers!
 

98cwitr

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As a former atheist of 20 years, I'd have to say Truth.

That said: The Word IS the truth :D

I orginally turned to the Bible in an attempt to find out why/what Christians actually believed, and then trying to reconcile truth as I knew it with what was written. My agnostic-ish believe in fate then over time seemed to have manifested into actual belief in God and thus in Christ.
 
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As a former atheist of 20 years, I'd have to say Truth.

You mean you were born and grew up as an atheist? Or did you stop believing for a while (20 years) and then came back to believe again?

That said: The Word IS the truth :D
I orginally turned to the Bible in an attempt to find out why/what Christians actually believed, and then trying to reconcile truth as I knew it with what was written.

So, when you were trying to reconcile truth with what was written, what was it that caused you to believe in the Bible?
 
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aiki

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Very well. From your perspective, is the fact that you can find truth in the Bible the main reason you believe in it?

I don't know that I have one main reason for believing the Bible reveals divine truth, but rather a collection of reasons that together convince me of the veracity of its claims (and its supernatural origin).

And, along the same lines, do you believe that one can only find truth in the Bible and nowhere else?

No.

Selah.
 
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I don't know that I have one main reason for believing the Bible reveals divine truth, but rather a collection of reasons that together convince me of the veracity of its claims (and its supernatural origin).

Could you share a few of those reasons if you don't want to share all?
 
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NorrinRadd

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If you go back and consider your OP closely, I think you will find that it is meaningless, at least for those of us who are "Bible-believers."

Well, why do you find the OP meaningless?
Evidently not all Bible-believers have your exact same position regarding the Bible. Just read aiki's response... he is perfectly at peace when he agrees that truth can also be found outside the Bible.

So, what's your take, NorrinRadd? Do you believe that truth can only be found in the Bible?
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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I'm aware that the great majority of Bible believers will probably say something along the lines of "The Bible IS the truth", "One can only find the truth in the Bible", "they are both one and the same (truth/Bible)", etc... and that's fine. Even though I myself don't believe the Bible to be true any longer, I was born and raised christian, I was very active in church, always participating in Bible competitions, finishing in the top spots most of the time, I'm also I musician so, I was part of the worship ministry most of the time, pianist of the choir, etc... What I'm trying to get at is that I know exactly what it feels like to really, really believe the Bible is the absolute truth because I truly believed in it pretty much all thirty years out of the first thirty years of my life.

So, the question is not "do you believe the Bible is true" or "do you think the Bible and truth are one and the same", no... my question is 'What's more important for you, is it truth, regardless of all its implications, or is it the Bible, regardless of what the truth actually is?

I would love to hear your positions!
Cheers!

Heres some things that your original post reveals if you don't mine me scrutinizing it :

1. You may or may not have been a genuine Christian during your many years and service within the confines of a 4 walled Church Building. Serving in various capacities , faithful church attendance, reading the BIble, achievements, etc....does not qualify a Person as a true Christian based on the BIblical Standard which is the only standard that matters . Im not here to challenge that, but, I did want to point out that there are loads of people who go to church as professed Christians...but they don't pass the only true test standard that qualifies them as a Christian IN GODS EYES according to this written instruction .

2. Whether the Bible is true or not DOESNT depend on how a Person 'feels' ; the credibility of the Bible is based on external common standards of truth including scientific and historical testing which also applies to ANY and ALL ancient literary works under consideration. Im willing to bet that you never put the Bible to this sort of stringent test (for whatever reason) .

3. Onto your final question : I believe in the Bible as the absolute inerrant Truth not based on any circular reasoning , but based on external truth-testing Standards that the Bible has been subjected to . I believe and have put to the test myself over the last 25 years , that the Bibles teachings is 100% accurate for how it summarizes The Human Heart, Spirit, Soul, and Mind, Motives, Desires, etc... in no uncertain terms both with myself and Other Human Beings..... in addition to providing a much better life grounded in great meaning, purpose, and fulfillment by adhering to its Godly wisdom, high morals and ethics, and lifestyle choices that are congruent to Gods very nature, character, and person. Finally, I know that the BIble is truly inspired of God based on the intensive research ive done regarding fulfilled Prophecies about Kings, cities, tribes, Jesus, and end time living .. in addition to the unmistakable way that it has changed my life from being a full-fledged Narcissist on a quest for maximized Hedonism and making myself 'god' in authority ... to a Christ Follower whos basic character and temperament have been reconstructed and modified to reflect the very Fruit of the Spirit outlined in Galatians 5:24 . This is shared with countless people of ill-repute including hardened criminals and even mass murderers as a result of being drastically changed by The Bible and surrender to Christ. Finally, I have tested what the Bible says about God being our personal intelligent Theistic Creator as compared to our modern sciences....and find no discrepancy ; I do find big discrepancy between our Theistic Creator and pseudo-(unproven speculative) science that masquerades as 'truth' but qualifies as only religious faith that it occurred : Abiogenesis which says life was burped from non living chemicals including the DNA necessary / a Human Beings great ancestor takes him back to a one celled pond scum Protozoa in an infinite chain of mutational accidents without a shred of meaning, purpose, or dignity that resulted in a Human Brain so complex that scientists report it is THE most complex thing known to mankind which cant be reproduced....yet blind random accidental mutations found a way to assemble it and kickstarted it into operation. Such pseudo science qualifies as Fairy Tales for Adults (so, ultimately, they can live as they like unencumbered by Gods existence) .

I have found that if a Person doesn't get their truth from the BIble, take the time to learn of its distinct truth credibility based on external testing sources ... that they will fall for any and every whimsical teaching that comes down the pipeline of Society which is anti-God foundationally. My signature below says it all. thanks.
 
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aiki

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Could you share a few of those reasons if you don't want to share all?

Okay. Here a few:

1. Incredible unity of themes.
2. Fulfilled prophecy.
3. Archaeological/historical accuracy.
4. Survivability.
5. Popularity and transforming impact upon people and cultures.

Selah.
 
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98cwitr

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You mean you were born and grew up as an atheist? Or did you stop believing for a while (20 years) and then came back to believe again?

My grandparents did their best to raise me as a Christian and send me to church, so I was familiar with it. Never cared for it and after reading the first few chapters in Genesis I concluded the entire book could not be trusted around age 5.

So, when you were trying to reconcile truth with what was written, what was it that caused you to believe in the Bible?

Interesting story and I'll spare you all the details, but around age 25 I summed up all the coincidences in my life that should have landed me in a coffin or jail (and there were a lot!) and the only logical answer I could conclude was that something beyond me was in control. No other answer, based on probability, could even come close. I had always believed in fate, but after reading the Bible something was changed in me, and I came to a faith that God is real and is active in the world and in His creation.
 
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What do you mean? Am I presenting a false dichotomy? How so?

The OP implicitly assumes the Bible is not true.

To a Christian, it sounds like you're saying that you have to choose between apples or fruit.

One category encompasses the other, so the choice between the two seems meaningless.


Perhaps what you're getting at is which encompasses which. I would think it is obvious that Truth is the broader category. This is shown by true statements which do not appear in the Bible such as the Earth's radius or the speed of light or the fact that my father's name is Gilbert. Truth is broader. Truth is the fruit, the Bible is the apple.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm aware that the great majority of Bible believers will probably say something along the lines of "The Bible IS the truth", "One can only find the truth in the Bible", "they are both one and the same (truth/Bible)", etc... and that's fine. Even though I myself don't believe the Bible to be true any longer, I was born and raised christian, I was very active in church, always participating in Bible competitions, finishing in the top spots most of the time, I'm also I musician so, I was part of the worship ministry most of the time, pianist of the choir, etc... What I'm trying to get at is that I know exactly what it feels like to really, really believe the Bible is the absolute truth because I truly believed in it pretty much all thirty years out of the first thirty years of my life.

So, the question is not "do you believe the Bible is true" or "do you think the Bible and truth are one and the same", no... my question is 'What's more important for you, is it truth, regardless of all its implications, or is it the Bible, regardless of what the truth actually is?

I would love to hear your positions!
Cheers!

As for myself, neither Truth nor the Bible are the concepts that I hold most dear. The concepts at the top of my cognitive list are Reality and Evaluation, with Truth and the Bible riding very closely behind. Of course, this isn't to say that once these things have had play in my mind and life, that the Bible doesn't float to the top.

Peace
 
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Heres some things that your original post reveals if you don't mine me scrutinizing it :

By all means, I don't mind at all.

1. You may or may not have been a genuine Christian during your many years and service within the confines of a 4 walled Church Building. Serving in various capacities , faithful church attendance, reading the BIble, achievements, etc....does not qualify a Person as a true Christian based on the BIblical Standard which is the only standard that matters.

When you say genuine, do you by any chance mean I wasn't sincere and was just pretending? The only reason I ask is that all of these are synonims with the word genuine (you can look them up): sincere, honest, truthful, straightforward, direct, frank.

Also, what is the Biblical Standard for a true Christian, as you mentioned?

Im not here to challenge that, but, I did want to point out that there are loads of people who go to church as professed Christians...but they don't pass the only true test standard that qualifies them as a Christian IN GODS EYES according to this written instruction .

Again, what is this standard you talk about? And the reason I ask is that there isn't a unique Biblical standard that ALL christian denomiations agree upon, at least not that I'm aware of. Every single belief system presents a different standard... But please prove me wrong.

2. Whether the Bible is true or not DOESNT depend on how a Person 'feels' ; the credibility of the Bible is based on external common standards of truth including scientific and historical testing which also applies to ANY and ALL ancient literary works under consideration.

I absolutely agree. Personal experience is NOT an indicator of the 'divine-status' or not of the Bible.

Im willing to bet that you never put the Bible to this sort of stringent test (for whatever reason) .

Let's say I haven't, 'for whatever reason'... Have you?
Can you describe some of these tests you have put the Bible through which single it out as the word of God among 'ALL ancient literary works'?

3. Onto your final question : I believe in the Bible as the absolute inerrant Truth not based on any circular reasoning ,

What exactly to you mean by "innerrant"? Do you mean there isn't a single error or contradiction that can be found in the Bible?
And when you say "not based on any circular reasoning", I assume you mean that your belief in the Bible as the word of God isn't necessarily because that Bible says it is the word of God, correct?

but based on external truth-testing Standards that the Bible has been subjected to . I believe and have put to the test myself over the last 25 years , that the Bibles teachings is 100% accurate...

For example, what kinds of truth-testing Standards have you subjected the Bible to?
And do you mean to say you have found ALL of the Bible teachings 100% accurate?

...for how it summarizes The Human Heart, Spirit, Soul, and Mind, Motives, Desires, etc... in no uncertain terms both with myself and Other Human Beings..... in addition to providing a much better life grounded in great meaning, purpose, and fulfillment by adhering to its Godly wisdom, high morals and ethics, and lifestyle choices that are congruent to Gods very nature, character, and person.

If I'm not mistaking you yourself stated that "Whether the Bible is true or not DOESNT depend on how a Person 'feels'", so I'm not sure how the proposition that the Bible provides a much better life grounded in great meaning, purpose, etc., can be an indicator of its status of "divinely inspired".

Finally, I know that the BIble is truly inspired of God based on the intensive research ive done regarding fulfilled Prophecies about Kings, cities, tribes, Jesus, and end time living...

Honestly, I haven't yet done any research on Bible Prophecies and their fulfillment. I mean, I'm very well familiar with most if not all of these prophecies but I haven't gone deeply to figure out the time when they were written and compare it against the time they were supposed fulfilled. Have you done any research in that area? Please share.

...in addition to the unmistakable way that it has changed my life from being a full-fledged Narcissist on a quest for maximized Hedonism and making myself 'god' in authority ... to a Christ Follower whos basic character and temperament have been reconstructed and modified to reflect the very Fruit of the Spirit outlined in Galatians 5:24 . This is shared with countless people of ill-repute including hardened criminals and even mass murderers as a result of being drastically changed by The Bible and surrender to Christ.

That a person can be transformed through reading and following certain teachings found in a book doesn't necessarily make that book divinely inspired. If that was the case, then an endless number of books out there in the Self-Help industry should be considered divinely inspired, not to mention other religions' scriptures.

Finally, I have tested what the Bible says about God being our personal intelligent Theistic Creator as compared to our modern sciences....and find no discrepancy;

I'll get back to you on this one...

I do find big discrepancy between our Theistic Creator and pseudo-(unproven speculative) science that masquerades as 'truth' but qualifies as only religious faith that it occurred : Abiogenesis which says life was burped from non living chemicals...

Sure, Abiogenesis is currently a working hypotesis and not a fully fledged theory. Scientists acknowledged that they do not know for certain how life began in all its details...

...including the DNA necessary / a Human Beings great ancestor takes him back to a one celled pond scum Protozoa in an infinite chain of mutational accidents without a shred of meaning, purpose, or dignity that resulted in a Human Brain so complex that scientists report it is THE most complex thing known to mankind which cant be reproduced....yet blind random accidental mutations found a way to assemble it and kickstarted it into operation.

And now you have completely left Abiogenesis and entered into Evolution territory, yet you don't seem to be aware of it in the least. Evolution is indeed a fully fledged scientific theory and a fact, amply confirmed and verified. It's not random, Natural Selection being one of its key motors, although I really doubt you are familiar with it, as is clearly evident when you say "random accidental mutations found a way to assemble it and kickstarted it into operation.". I'm am not an evolutionary biologist, but I will investigate whatever 'legitimate' issue you bring up about Evolution. And I emphasize the word 'legitimate' because there are a lot of very weak "arguments" out there that just expose the ignorance of whoever presents these arguments. I'm talking about things like "if evolution is true, why are there still monkeys", etc., which is pathetic.

Such pseudo science qualifies as Fairy Tales for Adults (so, ultimately, they can live as they like unencumbered by Gods existence).

Irony written all over the place.

I have found that if a Person doesn't get their truth from the BIble, take the time to learn of its distinct truth credibility based on external testing sources ... that they will fall for any and every whimsical teaching that comes down the pipeline of Society which is anti-God foundationally. My signature below says it all. thanks.

I applaud the fact that you hinted on various occasions to having tested the Bible based on external sources, I now would like to see what kind of tests you are talking about.
 
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1. Incredible unity of themes.

Except where there are contradictions and errors.

2. Fulfilled prophecy.

This particular area of the Bible I need to investigate more. Suffice it to say that Nostradamus and others can also proclaim having fulfilled prophecies as part of their repertoire. Does that make them divine or prophets of God?

3. Archaeological/historical accuracy.

It's possible that evidence has been dug up to confirm places or possibly names of characters in the Bible, but that's miles away from validating or confirming the miracles and mythical stories that can ALSO be found in the Bible. Books of any kind mention places and people that actually existed, that doesn't make the books divinely inspired, does it?

4. Survivability.

Does the fact that Bible scriptures have survived for centuries make them divinely inspired? There many ancient texts that are way older and have survived to these days, yet you wouldn't say they are divinely inspired because of how old they are, would you?

5. Popularity and transforming impact upon people and cultures.

Popularity? Really?
And regarding this 'transforming impact' you talk about, like I mentioned in my response to TheyCallMeDavid, Self-help and other religions' texts easily fall into this category.
 
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The OP implicitly assumes the Bible is not true.

Wrong. The OP implies truth and the Bible are not the same thing, regardless of whether the Bible is true or not.

To a Christian, it sounds like you're saying that you have to choose between apples or fruit.

One category encompasses the other, so the choice between the two seems meaningless.

Even if your analogy was 100% applicable, the fact that fruit and apples are two different concepts doesn't imply that therefore apples are forcefully NOT fruit.

Perhaps what you're getting at is which encompasses which. I would think it is obvious that Truth is the broader category. This is shown by true statements which do not appear in the Bible such as the Earth's radius or the speed of light or the fact that my father's name is Gilbert. Truth is broader. Truth is the fruit, the Bible is the apple.

See? The question wasn't meaningless. So, with the last thing you mentioned in mind, would agree that truth is more important than the Bible?
 
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