BPPLEE

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That's because Jehovah's Witnesses have a nearly intentionally bad understanding of Greek grammar. Though I suspect you meant to say that "theos" without the definite article; as JW's will argue that in John 1:1 Jesus is "theos" whereas Jehovah is "ho theos". The claim they are trying to make is that Jesus is "a god" rather than "the God". It's a bad argument, and there are people far more adept at Greek who can explain why far better than I can. But the short of it is that the grammar of John 1:1 doesn't require the definite article in this instance.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.

The JW claim is that the second use of theos as in kai theos hen ho logos should be translated with the indefinite article since the Greek doesn't contain the definite article in relation to God "theos" vs "ho theos".

The problem with this is that it's simply wrong. As I said, there are people far better at explaining precisely why; but simply put here, there are plenty of times where the Greek lacks the definite article but it's obviously referring to God, aka "Jehovah". We don't then say that YHWH is "a god" simply because of a lack of the definite article in those cases.

We see examples of this right here in the first chapter of John, for example John 1:18

θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο
No one has ever seen God, the only-begotten Son, who is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

There's simply no way to argue, in this case, that theon "God" here refers to anyone else other than the Father, the context could not be any more clear; yet there's no definite article.

So the lack of a definite article does not mean an implied indefinite article, we don't translation John 1:18 as "no one has ever seen a god" because that's ridiculous.

But as I suggested in the beginning of my post, JW's have a nearly intentional bad understanding of Greek, I say "nearly intentional" because while most are simply being hoodwinked by what their teachers tell them--but I can't imagine those teachers, if they bother with even a little bit of Greek, wouldn't know any better and thus at some level it has to be intentional.

I will also reiterate that there are far better people than myself to go into more detail on these things.

Anti-Trinitarians consistently have to rely on bad arguments to make their case; because the doctrine of the Trinity is so very clearly expressed in the Church's historical understanding, reception, and engagement with Scripture and what the Christian Church has consistently been teaching from the beginning. While a mature articulation of Trinitarian theology may be "late", all the foundational building blocks are present from the beginning. The doctrine of the Trinity is the inevitable conclusion of taking what we read in Scripture and what the Apostles taught seriously. Every doctrinal alternative fails catastrophically.

-CryptoLutheran
You are right she calls God ho theos and Jesus ho logos. Here’s a sample——-
“John 1:1 in Greek does not say what the English translation conveys.....
The Greek language had no special word for the singular (though at that time, nameless) God of the Jews....so it identified him with the definite article (the) "ho"....so look for that little word in the Greek here....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

The entire meaning of that one famous verse is rendered invalid unless the definite article is acknowledged.....and when it is, it changes the whole meaning.

Jehovah is "ho theos" and Jesus is "ho logos" but if you look closely, the definite article is missing from the second mention of "theos", which makes "the Word" someone who was "with" THE God ("ho theos") but who was not "ho theos", but simply "theos" (correctly rendered "a god" or "divine one").

"Theos" in Greek does not just mean "God" as we understand it in English. As Strongs describes its primary definition, Jesus can rightly be called "a god". It does not mean that there are two gods, but two "divine mighty ones", only one of which is "ho theos" and he is clearly identified if you have eyes to see.

"Theos" is a word that described all the Greek gods, who were all distinguishable by name......but the God of the Jews had no name to identify him because the Jews had expunged it from their speech on a false premise. The ambiguous title "Lord" was substituted and then confused with the "Lord" Jesus Christ.
And the Greek had no capital letters or punctuation, so the use of capital letters to convey something that was never there, is also fraudulent.

We have to use the whole Bible, not just the parts that seem to agree with what we want to believe.”
 
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ViaCrucis

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You are right she calls God ho theos and Jesus ho logos. Here’s a sample——-
“John 1:1 in Greek does not say what the English translation conveys.....
The Greek language had no special word for the singular (though at that time, nameless) God of the Jews....so it identified him with the definite article (the) "ho"....so look for that little word in the Greek here....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

The entire meaning of that one famous verse is rendered invalid unless the definite article is acknowledged.....and when it is, it changes the whole meaning.

Jehovah is "ho theos" and Jesus is "ho logos" but if you look closely, the definite article is missing from the second mention of "theos", which makes "the Word" someone who was "with" THE God ("ho theos") but who was not "ho theos", but simply "theos" (correctly rendered "a god" or "divine one").

"Theos" in Greek does not just mean "God" as we understand it in English. As Strongs describes its primary definition, Jesus can rightly be called "a god". It does not mean that there are two gods, but two "divine mighty ones", only one of which is "ho theos" and he is clearly identified if you have eyes to see.

"Theos" is a word that described all the Greek gods, who were all distinguishable by name......but the God of the Jews had no name to identify him because the Jews had expunged it from their speech on a false premise. The ambiguous title "Lord" was substituted and then confused with the "Lord" Jesus Christ.
And the Greek had no capital letters or punctuation, so the use of capital letters to convey something that was never there, is also fraudulent.

We have to use the whole Bible, not just the parts that seem to agree with what we want to believe.”

And this entire argument they make crumbles apart because it's not hard to find lots of examples where theos, without the definite article, is used in reference to God the Father.

The JW argument is built upon a deeply flawed premise.

Something else to consider: While JW's won't care about what early Christians believed or said, as they believe the Church fell into apostasy. It seems worth noting, at least for your own benefit, that if this were the case, that ho theos always refers to "Jehovah", and theos is just "a god", then why did this never occur to all the Greek speaking Christians throughout history?

For us English-speakers Koine Greek is an ancient, distant, and foreign language. But for hundreds of years in antiquity it was the language tens, even hundreds of thousands of Christians spoke every day, that's why the New Testament is written in it--it was the common language of the entire ancient Mediterranean world. This was the language Christians spoke around the dinner table, it's the language they spoke at church. For thousands and even millions of Christians throughout history the New Testament was written in their native tongue, they didn't need a translation, they spoke the same language which God's word was written in.

That's a huge problem whenever anyone comes along and thinks they have a new and special insight into a language. It's like someone who only learned a handful of English words and phrases from a magazine trying to tell you or me that the every-day English words we use don't mean what we think they mean. That our English is wrong, and they are here to correct it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BPPLEE

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And this entire argument they make crumbles apart because it's not hard to find lots of examples where theos, without the definite article, is used in reference to God the Father.

The JW argument is built upon a deeply flawed premise.

Something else to consider: While JW's won't care about what early Christians believed or said, as they believe the Church fell into apostasy. It seems worth noting, at least for your own benefit, that if this were the case, that ho theos always refers to "Jehovah", and theos is just "a god", then why did this never occur to all the Greek speaking Christians throughout history?

For us English-speakers Koine Greek is an ancient, distant, and foreign language. But for hundreds of years in antiquity it was the language tens, even hundreds of thousands of Christians spoke every day, that's why the New Testament is written in it--it was the common language of the entire ancient Mediterranean world. This was the language Christians spoke around the dinner table, it's the language they spoke at church. For thousands and even millions of Christians throughout history the New Testament was written in their native tongue, they didn't need a translation, they spoke the same language which God's word was written in.

That's a huge problem whenever anyone comes along and thinks they have a new and special insight into a language. It's like someone who only learned a handful of English words and phrases from a magazine trying to tell you or me that the every-day English words we use don't mean what we think they mean. That our English is wrong, and they are here to correct it.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes she always refers back to the original language to make it fit her beliefs it’s like you can’t read the Bible without a secret decoder ring.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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For us English-speakers Koine Greek is an ancient, distant, and foreign language. But for hundreds of years in antiquity it was the language tens, even hundreds of thousands of Christians spoke every day, that's why the New Testament is written in it--it was the common language of the entire ancient Mediterranean world. This was the language Christians spoke around the dinner table, it's the language they spoke at church. For thousands and even millions of Christians throughout history the New Testament was written in their native tongue, they didn't need a translation, they spoke the same language which God's word was written in.

-CryptoLutheran
Koine Greek and Byzantine Greek are still used today liturgically and is still the official language of the Greek Orthodox church. So it has never really fallen out of use.
 
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BPPLEE

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Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

Note: The following is from a study I did and not taken from the above link. The linked article is very long but very informative.

So how did we end up with changes and verses being deleted out of the Bible? Let’s review quickly:

At the end of the 3rd century, Lucian of Antioch compiled a Greek text that achieved considerable popularity and became the dominant text throughout Christendom. It was produced prior to the Diocletain persecution (~303), during which many copies of the New Testament were confiscated and destroyed. (This was not the first persecution and the earliest copies of the New Testament were rounded up and destroyed going all the way back to around 70 AD.)


After Constantine came to power, the Lucian text was propagated by bishops going out from the Antiochan School throughout the eastern world, and it soon became the standard text of the Eastern Church, forming the basis of the Byzantine text. (Today the majority of surviving copies of the New Testament in Greek are Byzantine text type.)


From the 6th to the 14th century, the great majority of New Testament manuscripts were produced in Byzantium, in Greek. It was in 1525 that Erasmus, using five or six Byzantine manuscripts dating from the 10th to the 13th centuries, compiled the first Greek text to be produced on a printing press, subsequently known as Textus Receptus ("Received Text").


The translators of the King James Version had over 5,000 manuscripts available to them, but they leaned most heavily on the major Byzantine manuscripts, particularly Textus Receptus because it agreed with the majority of manuscripts. The King James Version was published in 1611 and for 270 years was the accepted Bible of record.

Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort
were Anglican churchmen who had contempt for the Textus Receptus and began a work in 1853 that resulted, after 28 years, in a Greek New Testament based on the earlier Alexandrian manuscripts, particularly two documents; The Codex Vaticanus and The Codex Sinaiticus.

They had some rules for their method of translation
, foremost was that the oldest manuscripts are closest to the originals. This seems reasonable until you investigate what the oldest manuscripts are.


They said that shorter is better. If you’re looking at manuscripts and one has less words than the other, they preferred the shorter version because they said it was more likely that something was added than that something was omitted. That’s pure speculation, but that’s how they did it.


They said that the more difficult a reading was, the closer it was to the original, because they said copyists had tried to make the scriptures easier to read over the years.


They said if there was a mistake, the mistake was closer to the original because it was probably corrected in later texts. That’s how you get mistakes like Mark 1:2.


And they said that the majority means nothing. So if you have over 5,000 documents and they are in agreement 90% of the time and you have 2 documents that are older than all the rest, where there is a difference you ignore the majority and use the 2 oldest documents as your source. That’s what they did. They preferred the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus over the majority. Let’s look at these documents.


The Codex Vaticanus gets its name from the place where it is stored the Vatican library. It is regarded as the oldest and rarest existing Greek copy of the Bible. It has been dated to around 350 AD. It’s over 90% intact which is incredible for a manuscript its age. The reason it’s rare is because it wasn’t copied. People realized there was a problem with it and they didn’t copy it. That’s also why it’s in good shape. It wasn’t handled and worn by people copying it.

It’s one of four uncial manuscripts dating before the year 1,000 and it is considered the most significant. It’s curious that it’s given the position of most important when the actual quality of the manuscript leaves much to be desired.


Dean Burgon describes the quality of Vaticanus as follows:

“Codex Vaticanus comes to us without a history, without recommendation of any kind except that of antiquity. It bears traces of careless transcription on every page. The mistakes which the original transcriber made are of perpetual recurrence.”


The New Westminister Dictionary of the Bible concurs:

“It should be noted however that there is no prominent Biblical manuscript in which there occur such gross cases of misspelling, faulty grammer and omission as in Vaticanus.”


So the Vaticanus scribe wasn’t top tier. Some scholars would say he wasn’t even middle of the pack. In the 10th or 11th century at least 2 scribes made corrections to Vaticanus so that means it’s not entirely a 4th century version, some of it is from the 10th or 11th century. One of the correctors even left a note for the other corrector.


Someone corrected Hebrews 1:3 but the other corrector objected and wrote “Fool and knave, can’t you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!” Apparently the note writer regarded the document as a museum piece to be protected and preserved and not as a copy of scripture to be used as such.

The Codex Vaticanus is a mediocre document at best. It’s held in such high regard simply because it is old.

Codex Sinaiticus takes its name from where it was found, St. Catherine’s monastery at the foot of Mt. Sinai. It was found by a man named Lobegott Friedrich Constantin Tischendorf. He was going through documents that were going to be burned when he found Sinaiticus. So it was found in the trash.



Even those who love the manuscript will admit it has serious quality problems. The Codex Sinaiticus website says the following;

No other early manuscript of the Christian Bible has been so extensively corrected. A glance at the transcription will show just how common these corrections are. They are especially frequent in the Septuagint portion. They range in date from those made by the original scribes in the fourth century to ones made in the twelfth century. They range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.


They aren’t the only ones to say this either. The manuscript’s finder Tischendorf – who reckoned it as the greatest find of his life – said the following:On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people.


Tischendorf also that said he:
counted 14,800 alterations and corrections in Sinaiticus.” He goes on to say:

The New Testament…is extremely unreliable…on many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40, words are dropped…letters, words, even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled. That gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same word as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament.



By any conceivable metric (except age), Codex Sinaiticus is one of the worst manuscripts ever found. You probably couldn’t find a scholar who would praise the scribal work in Sinaiticus, and it’s easy to find those who deride it as the worst scribal work among the manuscripts that have been found.


Yet Westcott and Hort preferred these 2 manuscripts and the critical text used for today’s versions of the Bible are based on the Alexandrian manuscripts and mostly agree with Westcott and Hort’s work.


Both men were strongly influenced by those who denied the deity of Jesus Christ and embraced the prevalent Gnostic heresies of the period. There are over 3,000 contradictions in the four gospels alone between these manuscripts. They deviated from the traditional Greek text in 8,413 places.

They conspired to influence the committee that produced The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881 revision), and, thus, their work has been a major influence in most modern translations, dethroning the Textus Receptus.

Detractors of the traditional King James Version regard the Westcott and Hort as a more academically acceptable literary source for guidance than the venerated Textus Receptus. They argue that the disputed passages were added later as scribal errors or amendments.

Defenders of the Textus Receptus attack Westcott and Hort (and the Alexandrian manuscripts) as having removed these many passages, noting that these disputed passages underscore the deity of Christ, His atonement, His resurrection, and other key doctrines. They note that Alexandria was a major headquarters for the Gnostics, heretical sects that had begun to emerge even while John was still alive.

(It is also evident that Westcott and Hort were not believers and opposed taking the Bible literally concerning the Atonement & Salvation, they didn’t believe in Hell and the most damning evidence against them is their own words. If you read their personal writings you wouldn't dream of letting them lead your Sunday School class!)


Most modern versions of the Bible are based on the Alexandrian manuscripts because they are the oldest. The experts say the Majority Text (the Byzantine type) are corrupted and these verses missing from the Alexandrian texts were added later to the Byzantine texts (the Majority). They say the Byzantine texts should not even be considered. But the evidence is that the Alexandrian texts are corrupt.

There remains a persistent bias against the Byzantine Text type in Critical Text advocates. Here’s Dan Wallace – arguably the most respected New Testament textual critic alive today – talking about one of our oldest manuscripts, the Codex Alexandrius.

“Codex Alexandrius is a very interesting manuscript in that in the Gospels, it’s a Byzantine text largely, which means it agrees with the majority of manuscripts most of the time. While as, in the rest of the New Testament, it is largely Alexandrian. These are the two most competing textual forms, textual families, text types if you want to call them that, that we have for our New Testament manuscripts. So when you get outside the Gospels, Alexandrius becomes very important manuscript.” – Dan Wallace

Source: YouTube. (Only 1:35 long, starting at about 0:53)



Please notice the casual dismissal of the Byzantine text type by one of the most respected textual critics of our age. I’m honestly not sure why it’s dismissed so easily. Codex Alexandrius is the third oldest (nearly) complete manuscript, dating from the early 400s. Why dismiss the Gospels just because they are a different text type?


We have 5000+ manuscripts of the New Testament, though many are smaller fragments. In the last ~140 years since the Westcott & Hort 1881 Critical Text, we’ve discovered Papyri from the 300s, 200s, and even a few from the 100s. Despite this, the Critical Text of the New Testament remains virtually unchanged from ~140 years ago. Because they prefer the Alexandrian text types.

The following is regarding the Alexandrian text type manuscripts.

However, the antiquity of these manuscripts is no indication of reliability because a prominent church father in Alexandria testified that manuscripts were already corrupt by the third century. Origen, the Alexandrian church father in the early third century, said:

“…the differences among the manuscripts [of the Gospels] have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they lengthen or shorten, as they please.”

( From Bruce Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. (1991), pp. 151-152). (Bruce Metzger was one of the editors of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament that is the basis for modern translations.)


Origen is of course speaking of the manuscripts of his location, Alexandria, Egypt. By an Alexandrian Church father’s own admission, manuscripts in Alexandria by 200 AD were already corrupt. Irenaeus in the 2nd century, though not in Alexandria, made a similar admission on the state of corruption among New Testament manuscripts. Daniel B. Wallace says, “Revelation was copied less often than any other book of the NT, and yet Irenaeus admits that it was already corrupted — within just a few decades of the writing of the Apocalypse.

There’s an argument to be made that the Alexandrian Text type was corrupted very early.

So the same argument they use against The Majority Text can be used against the Alexandrian Texts.
I really like this Bible too. The LSV Bible
 
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SavedByGrace3

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As of late I have been looking more into the early Aramaic texts. I believe most of what Jesus spoke was in the language of the people, mainly Aramaic. I wonder if the labor and regard we give to Koine is misplaced, since those texts would themselves be a translation from Aramaic (at least the gospels and the words Jesus actually spoke.) Of course Jesus spoke Hebrew... at least in the temple with the Priests, Scribes, and Sadducees. But I doubt the fishermen and laborers had knowledge of Greek. I am sure there are people here who know more and better than I.
 
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trophy33

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As of late I have been looking more into the early Aramaic texts. I believe most of what Jesus spoke was in the language of the people, mainly Aramaic. I wonder if the labor and regard we give to Koine is misplaced, since those texts would themselves be a translation from Aramaic (at least the gospels and the words Jesus actually spoke.) Of course Jesus spoke Hebrew... at least in the temple with the Priests, Scribes, and Sadducees. But I doubt the fishermen and laborers had knowledge of Greek. I am sure there are people here who know more and better than I.
Matthew and Luke were both educated, so Greek was no problem for them.

Mark was accompanying Paul and Barnabas, so he was not some "just a fisherman" either.

And John, though "just a fisherman", had quite a smooth simple Greek and incorporated even some Greek philosophy concepts into his writings. He does not try to use complex sentence structures or advanced Greek vocabulary, but keeps it simple, yet clean.

Paul was educated, which is also visible on his Greek in his letters.

There is actually no serious evidence that anything we have in the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Matthew and Luke were both educated, so Greek was no problem for them.

Mark was accompanying Paul and Barnabas, so he was not some "just a fisherman" either.

And John, though "just a fisherman", had quite a smooth simple Greek. He does not try some complex sentence structures, but keeps it simple, yet clean.

Paul was educated, which is also visible on his Greek in his letters.

There is actually no serious evidence that anything we have in the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic.
Thanks
I suspect there would be some evidence of a translation from Aramaic to Greek, at least to the trained eye. Just as when you hear a French person speaking English.... there are little clues in the usage and vocabulary.
 
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trophy33

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Thanks
I suspect there would be some evidence of a translation from Aramaic to Greek, at least to the trained eye. Just as when you hear a French person speaking English.... there are little clues in the usage and vocabulary.
Probably. As my English is structured in the way I am used to speak in my native language, including some silly errors a native English speaker would not make.

But its something different from saying that the Greek NT is a translation of some Aramaic texts or that Aramaic NT is somehow better or more useful.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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As of late I have been looking more into the early Aramaic texts. I believe most of what Jesus spoke was in the language of the people, mainly Aramaic. I wonder if the labor and regard we give to Koine is misplaced, since those texts would themselves be a translation from Aramaic (at least the gospels and the words Jesus actually spoke.) Of course Jesus spoke Hebrew... at least in the temple with the Priests, Scribes, and Sadducees. But I doubt the fishermen and laborers had knowledge of Greek. I am sure there are people here who know more and better than I.
There are a couple of church fathers, Papias in particular, who wrote that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Christ in Aramaic. However, that document is now lost. Personally, I do believe that there may have been some early drafts or maybe the 1st century equivalent to post-its, where speakers had some notes, but those never were copied once the full Gospels were written.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There are a couple of church fathers, Papias in particular, who wrote that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Christ in Aramaic. However, that document is now lost. Personally, I do believe that there may have been some early drafts or maybe the 1st century equivalent to post-its, where speakers had some notes, but those never were copied once the full Gospels were written.

I've always thought that Papias' account seemed to give at least some credence to the Q-hypothesis, at least perhaps to some degree. That said, such a document is now lost, if it existed. But that is, of course, a far cry from the Four Gospels as being originally composed in Aramaic--that just doesn't really make any sense, and there's no evidence for it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SavedByGrace3

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There are a couple of church fathers, Papias in particular, who wrote that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Christ in Aramaic. However, that document is now lost. Personally, I do believe that there may have been some early drafts or maybe the 1st century equivalent to post-its, where speakers had some notes, but those never were copied once the full Gospels were written.
Thank... I purchased a book that says similar about Matthew and presents an English version.

The Original Gospels: an English Translation from the Old Syriac manuscripts, the Latin Codex Vercellensis and the most Ancient Greek Papyri: Dumdei, Mark A: 9781508911463: Amazon.com: Books
 
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So how do you know if your Bible has had scriptures removed? Well you can Google “Verses not in the NIV” and get some of the verses and check that way, but I have found 3 verses you can use as a test and if your Bible changes these 3 verses it probably takes liberty in other places.



1Co 7:36




But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry

1Co 7:37

But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well

1Co 7:38

So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.


This is about a father choosing whether or not to let his daughter marry. Paul was talking about how the married person is concerned about pleasing their spouse in verse 34 he said,

There is[fn a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband.

So this verse is about a father letting his daughter get married or not.

What does the NIV say?

1Co 7:36

If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married.

1Co 7:37

But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.



1Co 7:38

So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.


If your Bible changes this to be about a man deciding if he should marry or not then it probably changes other scriptures too. (To be fair, the NIV does give footnotes.)


So what do you do with this information? Well I like the New King James Version. It’s in modern language but it’s translated from the Textus Receptus. But you don’t have to go out and buy one. You can keep reading the Bible you have. Just pay attention to verse numbers as you read and when something is missing check the footnotes, find out what is missing.


When you see a note like this

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]


Realize they’re only talking about a couple of documents
. If the first 11 verses of John 8 are excluded there is no woman caught in adultery. Jesus never said “Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone.”


But I’m not trying to get you to change Bibles
, just be aware of these things. When I just want to read through the Bible, I enjoy the NLT. But I’m aware when something is left out. God designed His word in such a way that even if something is left out, the message still gets through.



If you were going to send a radio message to North Korea, you would anticipate that it would be blocked. You wouldn’t send one powerful message, that would be easy to block. You spread out your bandwidth and send thousands of messages knowing they can’t block them all.

God anticipated hostile jamming. Even if something is taken out of His word, the message still gets through.
I do wish you would stop seemingly 'not promoting' the NKJV Bible, because it also has been subjected to the NU Critical Text modifications. It is NOT a pure translation from the Textus Receptus like the 1611 KJV is.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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I wonder what the OP thinks about certain portions of scripture that Erasmus said were added by himself and mistakeningly incorporated into the Textus Receptus such as the longer version of Romans 8:1 KJV “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” This is only one such bit of scripture that Erasmus was recorded as saying was only a note he scribbled down as he was compiling the TR and it was added into the text.

The Comma Johanneum is a blatant addition that Erasmus admitted was only added due to pressure he faced from the church at the time to include more references to the Trinity.

So while it’s good to discuss issues facing biblical manuscripts, I think it’s only fair if we examine them all, not just the one side. Especially if we are going to say the newer versions “remove verses”. Because the real question is: were the removals ever part of the original in the first place?
I like your name and logo, very cool :cool:
 
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BPPLEE

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I do wish you would stop seemingly 'not promoting' the NKJV Bible, because it also has been subjected to the NU Critical Text modifications. It is NOT a pure translation from the Textus Receptus like the 1611 KJV is.
It’s a translation from the TR. It has notes indicating when there is variance from the critical text. I like it because it’s very close to the KJV but uses modern English.
 
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Davy

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It’s a translation from the TR. It has notes indicating when there is variance from the critical text. I like it because it’s very close to the KJV but uses modern English.
Just because it allows mods from the Critical Text is enough for me to want to not trust it, plus how it gives some readings very similar to the NIV when the KJV does not agree.
 
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Just because it allows mods from the Critical Text is enough for me to want to not trust it, plus how it gives some readings very similar to the NIV when the KJV does not agree.
That’s fine. The KJV is an excellent translation. If you prefer it that’s what you should use.
 
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Davy

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That’s fine. The KJV is an excellent translation. If you prefer it that’s what you should use.
I have several Bible versions in my BibleSoft study program, so it's not about just the KJV only either. It's about warning the brethren of what's going on with Gnostic infiltration into Bible versions. You did an excellent job with exposing a lot of that in your main post. But then you turned around and recommended the NKJV which has been corrupted too. No big deal if you like it and want to use it, but why not reveal that it too has been subject to some modifications from the NU Critical text? In my strong... opinion, that's a huge matter, simply because they are claiming, as you also did, that the NKJV is like an update of the 1611 KJV from the same Textus Receptus Greek Traditional text, when it is not 'purely' from the Textus Receptus only.
 
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I have several Bible versions in my BibleSoft study program, so it's not about just the KJV only either. It's about warning the brethren of what's going on with Gnostic infiltration into Bible versions. You did an excellent job with exposing a lot of that in your main post. But then you turned around and recommended the NKJV which has been corrupted too. No big deal if you like it and want to use it, but why not reveal that it too has been subject to some modifications from the NU Critical text? In my strong... opinion, that's a huge matter, simply because they are claiming, as you also did, that the NKJV is like an update of the 1611 KJV from the same Textus Receptus Greek Traditional text, when it is not 'purely' from the Textus Receptus only.

Ok, let's just put on our wine bibs and start sipping.

Trying to put a purity test onto any one of these texts is foolhardy at best, and people should know better than to try.

The earlier critical texts, while more correct in so many areas throughout the bible, they suffer from some major pruning throughout the books. And while those sections that were pruned from the earlier texts are found in the later texts, those texts suffer from later additions and outright doctrinal changes at times. Neither is pure.

No one wants to compare them critically line by line and make a bible that way, they choose either the earlier or the later and then make their bible. It's just too much work and too costly to do it that way. It's gonna take a single person with the talent and ambition to join them together correctly. Then you will have a better bible. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking either one of them is the pure text. GOD can show you differently.
 
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