What's a denomination?

[Luther073082]

faithfullisa
it is not like the denomination seperates people
the denomination was made because a seperation was allready a reality

Bingo. . .

Thats perhaps the best way to say it.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Denomination is man saying, "nice job on the whole church thing Jesus but I'm going to take over from here on out."

Okay maybe that's a really synical view haha, but I'm not a fan of denominations in the slightest.

Feel free to return to the Catholic Church at any time.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The main reason that Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians don't consider themselves a denomination and as "the church" is their belief in Apostolic succession as what defines the church.

Since they belive that apostolic succession defines the church they can claim to be one the true church.

The problem I would have is a Lutheran is that we define church as a group of believers. So while I can state that my church has the true teachings of the Apostles, which I belive is true. I can not at the same time consider the Lutheran church the only church because we define church as a group of believers. We can only consider them heterodox churchs or churchs which are in error. Under our beliefs the most insulting thing I can say about protestant churchs is that they are heretics. Of course with Roman Catholics our forefathers where slightly more insulting. I myself have had difficulty with this and will rarely if ever refer to them as just "Catholics". Simplily because Catholic meaning universal would ceed to them that they are in fact the universal church. Which they are not, so I refer to them as Roman Catholic - a group of people within the Universal church. Our Evangelical catholic forefathers often had much more biting words to refer to the Roman Catholic Church.

Of course as such I consider Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians to have denominations. And as I stated before, it is interesting because Eastern Orthodoxy could actually be broken up into 15 denominations based on what Patriarch you are under.

However a Roman Catholic or the Orthodox can take Apostolic succession and they could not only refer to protestant groups as not even being churchs but they could also they could go as far as to consider them as not even being Christian. (Well the current Roman Catholic catecism states that we are Christians) They can by their own beliefs seperate themselves from the fold and term denomination.

As a side note I would be interested on the general Eastern Orthodox teaching on salvation status of the heterodox - Roman Catholics, Evengelical catholics, and Protestants. The Roman Catholic teaching is written in what I consider a purposefully unclear way, to which they probably would have better off saying "We don't know."

Fortunately Christ gave us Peter and His successors who are the symbol and reality of our unity as Christians.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

People will often blame denominations for disunity among Christians and then claim they are 'non-denominational'

They engage is a kind of moral relativism where I'm okay and you're okay. You can't get rid of labels and say everyone is different and that's okay... and pretend that is true unity.

Agreeing to disagree is not unity. Not going to a church because they make it clear what they believe is not unity among Christianity- it is nothing. Unity is only found in one faith and faith isn't a simple concept like 'everyone believes in Jesus'. Faith is a radical knowledge of God that brings people together and radically changes them. It requires the existence or real and false beliefs.

 

[Niels]

A denomination is a measure of currency.

 

[Rhamiel]

You mean it is somehow a compromise, like a tool for uniting christians
Maybe. But are you sure that all denominations believe in one God?
Really, I'm not. That's why I'm out of any denomination

i guess that all depends on how you define denomination
and no, i am not sure all the denominations believe in the same God, that is why I do not say all denominations are equal, some are closer to the truth some are further away

as stated before, the EO and RC view themselves as being a denomination
each one views themself as the Church

 

[jameseb]

as stated before, the EO and RC do not view themselves as being a denomination
each one views themself as the Church

Emphasis mine.


Fixed the typo.


This is a blind post, so let me just state to those who might perceive the RC and EO in the wrong light, not considering ourselves a "denomination" in no way means that these churches consider themselves "superior" - both the RC and EO believe that salvation can be found outside our own churches, as I'm sure most Protestant denominations believe too.

 

[Luther073082]

You mean it is somehow a compromise, like a tool for uniting christians
Maybe. But are you sure that all denominations believe in one God?
Really, I'm not. That's why I'm out of any denomination

No we where already seperate in the beginning because we had different beliefs about this one God.

I'm a Lutheran so unlike a Roman Catholic I do not belive in the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Nor do I belive that the church is defined by a succession of bishops going back to the Apostles.

On the other hand unlike a Baptist I belive that Jesus is really present in, around and throughout the bread and wine in communion. Also unlike a baptist, I belive that infants should be baptised.

Our differing beliefs are the disunity. The denomination formalizes it.

The problem is that non-denominationalism is not somehow above this fray. Non-denominational churchs are typically baptist churchs who are not connected to any of the baptist denominations. They are therefore "independent baptist churchs" The theology and doctrines they teach is quite often baptist. Its the doctrine that seperates us. To me you are just as baptist as someone who is a member of the Southern Baptists. The only difference is a member of the Southern Baptists states openly that they are baptists. There is no such thing as being a non-denominational Christian.

Agreeing to disagree is not unity. Not going to a church because they make it clear what they believe is not unity among Christianity- it is nothing. Unity is only found in one faith and faith isn't a simple concept like 'everyone believes in Jesus'. Faith is a radical knowledge of God that brings people together and radically changes them. It requires the existence or real and false beliefs.

Its a false unity that a lot of protestant's like to agree to. They pretend that nothing seperates them by simpily not talking about the things that do seperate them.

 

[Niels]

I'm well aware of the fact that denominations were/are started due to doctrinal differences. However, I think one's chosen denomination is often a matter of style. Do you prefer contemporary worship services, or do you prefer traditional worship services? Do you prefer to be part of a large and formally structured organization, or do you prefer to be part of a small community group? Answers to questions like these strike me as more likely to determine where the average church-goer attends than a particular approach to something like infant baptism.

 

[Luther073082]

I'm well aware of the fact that denominations were/are started due to doctrinal differences. However, I think one's chosen denomination is often a matter of style. Do you prefer contemporary worship services, or do you prefer traditional worship services? Do you prefer to be part of a large and formally structured organization, or do you prefer to be part of a small community group? Answers to questions like these strike me as more likely to determine where the average church-goer attends than a particular approach to something like infant baptism.

Well perhaps the average church goer should learn a little bit more about the differences and the doctrine.

Because I can tell you doctrine is the primary thing I look at in a church. Doctrine is why I left my last church, when for all other purposes I liked that church better.

 

[kevlite2020]

Feel free to return to the Catholic Church at any time.

err how could I return to something that I never supported or claimed?

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

Well perhaps the average church goer should learn a little bit more about the differences and the doctrine.

Because I can tell you doctrine is the primary thing I look at in a church. Doctrine is why I left my last church, when for all other purposes I liked that church better.

I liked that church better, too, but I would have wanted to leave as well (had I been living in Indiana at the time). Instead, I was living in Jacksonville FL and, fortunately, my own church voted to leave the ELCA (in spite of the ELCA's various threats during the process, which made me lose any respect for them that I had left). Had our church not left the ELCA, my family and I would have sought out another church, my pastor probably would have left our church even though he had been there like 30 years, and I definitely would not have wanted to get married there.

 

[Niels]

Well perhaps the average church goer should learn a little bit more about the differences and the doctrine.

Because I can tell you doctrine is the primary thing I look at in a church. Doctrine is why I left my last church, when for all other purposes I liked that church better.

I hear you. It's important for us to know why we believe what we believe, and to find a church that doesn't contradict those beliefs. There are certainly doctrinal differences that would lead me to look for a church that's a better fit. However, it also seems to me that some differences are less theologically divisive than others. I chose infant baptism as an example, because I've seen varying opinions on it within denominations.

That said, I've been involved with multi-denominational groups enough to see that that the commonalities can be greater than the differences. For example, a Catholic friend and I had very similar theological views, despite the fact that some of our traditions differed. The same spirit and meaning was there... just expressed in different ways. I've also know Baptists who shared similar views, but there are those that I've butted heads with. I'm not sure if it can be boiled down to similar personalities or what, but I've found similarly minded Christians in various denominations. I'm not suggesting that we should all become nondenominational, but that same substance can transcend denominations. Not that it always happens, but I've certainly experienced it.

 

[Luther073082]

err how could I return to something that I never supported or claimed?

Roman Catholic Theology considers Protestants to be "seperated brethern" Since under their theology the Roman Catholic church is the one true universal Church they would consider a protestant becomming a Roman Catholic to be a person returning to the Holy Mother Church.

I personally would say that I am already a part of the catholic church and that I understand catholism to be defined by the Augsburg confession and the Book of Concord.

 

[love_123]

1COR 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1COR 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1COR 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1COR 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1COR 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1COR 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



To see this in the light of God, church here refers to the single one church by the name of the Lord Christ. Christ is head of the church; and we, Christians together make up the one body of the church. Should one hand of this body beat the other? There is only one church in the whole universe that is united in the name of the Lord. The mind and judgement of all ministries should be united because they are of the Lord. There should be no divisions which are the denominations you asked about. Church sermons should be the word of God which being edificated all by the Holy Spirit. There should be no other name for our church, but we should only lift up the name of Christ.

 

[b.hopeful]

Well perhaps the average church goer should learn a little bit more about the differences and the doctrine.

Because I can tell you doctrine is the primary thing I look at in a church. Doctrine is why I left my last church, when for all other purposes I liked that church better.

I don't think the average church goer is ignorant about differences in doctrine...I believe they don't care. St.Augustine said "In essentials,unity; in non-essentials,liberty; in all things,charity." I think the question is what does the average american church goer believe is "essential"? Perhaps the average church goer has a smaller list than you?

For me, I believe God's grace is more than enough to forgive errors in regards to non-essentials so I'm not going to allow details to trip up my walk or any other persons. I read this once and it stuck with me, "God wants us to have a full and abundant life....not be mere accessories in His life. " If God just wanted us to compliment him he could've skipped any hint of free will....but I think God finds beauty in our journeys.

When I think about the Good News.....I don't think it was that one set of hair splitting laws was replaced with yet a new set of hair splitting laws. I believe the Good News to be that God's grace is more than sufficient when it comes to human sin and error.

 

[Luther073082]

To see this in the light of God, church here refers to the single one church by the name of the Lord Christ. Christ is head of the church; and we, Christians together make up the one body of the church. Should one hand of this body beat the other? There is only one church in the whole universe that is united in the name of the Lord. The mind and judgement of all ministries should be united because they are of the Lord. There should be no divisions which are the denominations you asked about. Church sermons should be the word of God which being edificated all by the Holy Spirit. There should be no other name for our church, but we should only lift up the name of Christ.

Well just as soon as everyone else is prepared to admit their varies heterodoxies and heresies and come to the faith as defined by the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Book of Concord then we'll all be one.

I don't think the average church goer is ignorant about differences in doctrine...I believe they don't care. St.Augustine said "In essentials,unity; in non-essentials,liberty; in all things,charity." I think the question is what does the average american church goer believe is "essential"? Perhaps the average church goer has a smaller list than you?

I doubt Augustine would have found the understanding of baptism or the teaching of what communion is to be non-essential. So therefore for true unity to take place there must be complete unity in things like this.

Personally I think the average church goer is either ignorant or just does not care about the differences. For far too many people they seem conscerned that the church teach "something about Jesus."

 

[b.hopeful]

Well just as soon as everyone else is prepared to admit their varies heterodoxies and heresies and come to the faith as defined by the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Book of Concord then we'll all be one.



I doubt Augustine would have found the understanding of baptism or the teaching of what communion is to be non-essential. So therefore for true unity to take place there must be complete unity in things like this.

Personally I think the average church goer is either ignorant or just does not care about the differences. For far too many people they seem conscerned that the church teach "something about Jesus."

Well...St.Augustine doesn't get to define what unity constitutes for me...I was just using his words because he said it better than I could. Like I said...I don't think we'll agree on what the essentials are...therefore, we'll always have denominations. However, I think the average churchgoer probably picks a church based on what they consider essential...and whether it allows liberty in the non essentials.

 

[Wren]

I doubt Augustine would have found the understanding of baptism or the teaching of what communion is to be non-essential. So therefore for true unity to take place there must be complete unity in things like this.

Personally I think the average church goer is either ignorant or just does not care about the differences. For far too many people they seem concerned that the church teach "something about Jesus."

I agree with what Miles and B have been saying in this thread. I think many people may be like me. I've done research, including asking questions of experts such as yourself on here and reading the Bible, but I just think some things are not that important. I'm not without opinions on doctrine, but I think that many things are just not essential.

 

[kevlite2020]

Well just as soon as everyone else is prepared to admit their varies heterodoxies and heresies and come to the faith as defined by the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Book of Concord then we'll all be one.

Kirk, you could replace the bolded with any statement out there and it would still be accurate. It's a meaningless statement to say "if we all believe the exact same thing, we'll all be one." Duh. There are plenty of people like you of all faiths and denominations that aren't going to budge and will only accept unity if it comes the way they want it and truly believe is right.