What's a denomination?

[Keri]

I think you are missing the point.

Denominations exist because we disagree. My point is that when everyone agrees they won't exist anymore. And since I'm not changing my views then the only way to reach that point is for everyone to agree with me.



Well the disagreement on correct doctrine is not a good thing no.

If we all agreed on the correct doctrine then that would of course be the best thing.

But it would be worse for us to agree on an incorrect doctrine



You make it sound like they are two different things. The teachings that in the modern day are called "Lutheran" where at the time of the Apostles the teachings that where referred to as Christian.

Of course this is my opinion.

BWAHAHAHAHHAAA. HA. HA..... HA!!!

You're very funny Kirk.

 

[gzt]

The term is a Protestant one. It basically means "names" in this context. Neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy considers themselves as denominations, they both consider themselves to be The Church itself. Nor did any of the original Protestant groups, especially those that were national churches, like the Church of England. The term was created later by people who wanted to say that, well, there are all these divisions of Christians, but we're all Christians and part of the church, just called different things (different denominations). This was less offensive than the existing English nomenclature, where you were either a member of the Church of England or a Non-Conformist - they might specify if you were Catholic or not, I suppose, so they would know what manner of insult to hurl at you. "Non-denominational" Protestants came much later and were people who objected to hierarchy and names. Many were either Independent Baptists or were influenced by things like the Stone-Campbell Movement. Incidentally, these people tend to agree with the original sentiment behind the idea of "denominations". "Non-denominational" Protestantism became quite popular after the growth of Evangelicalism contra Fundamentalism and the beginning of the decay of the mainline denominations in the latter half of the 20th century. One thing to be wary of is declaring you are opposed to denominations or whatever and thinking you're somehow outside the fray. That means you are either claiming a certain type of ecclesiastical polity and are indeed making an ideological stand in the battle or you are ignoring the question, which unfortunately puts you in that camp as a default.

FWIW, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I believe the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, established at Pentecost. I don't have a horse in the battle.

 

[kevlite2020]

oy vey!

 

[Riot Riot Riot]

oy vey!

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Luther073082]

The term is a Protestant one. It basically means "names" in this context. Neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy considers themselves as denominations, they both consider themselves to be The Church itself. Nor did any of the original Protestant groups, especially those that were national churches, like the Church of England. The term was created later by people who wanted to say that, well, there are all these divisions of Christians, but we're all Christians and part of the church, just called different things (different denominations). This was less offensive than the existing English nomenclature, where you were either a member of the Church of England or a Non-Conformist - they might specify if you were Catholic or not, I suppose, so they would know what manner of insult to hurl at you. "Non-denominational" Protestants came much later and were people who objected to hierarchy and names. Many were either Independent Baptists or were influenced by things like the Stone-Campbell Movement. Incidentally, these people tend to agree with the original sentiment behind the idea of "denominations". "Non-denominational" Protestantism became quite popular after the growth of Evangelicalism contra Fundamentalism and the beginning of the decay of the mainline denominations in the latter half of the 20th century. One thing to be wary of is declaring you are opposed to denominations or whatever and thinking you're somehow outside the fray. That means you are either claiming a certain type of ecclesiastical polity and are indeed making an ideological stand in the battle or you are ignoring the question, which unfortunately puts you in that camp as a default.

FWIW, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I believe the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, established at Pentecost. I don't have a horse in the battle.

The main reason that Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians don't consider themselves a denomination and as "the church" is their belief in Apostolic succession as what defines the church.

Since they belive that apostolic succession defines the church they can claim to be one the true church.

The problem I would have is a Lutheran is that we define church as a group of believers. So while I can state that my church has the true teachings of the Apostles, which I belive is true. I can not at the same time consider the Lutheran church the only church because we define church as a group of believers. We can only consider them heterodox churchs or churchs which are in error. Under our beliefs the most insulting thing I can say about protestant churchs is that they are heretics. Of course with Roman Catholics our forefathers where slightly more insulting. I myself have had difficulty with this and will rarely if ever refer to them as just "Catholics". Simplily because Catholic meaning universal would ceed to them that they are in fact the universal church. Which they are not, so I refer to them as Roman Catholic - a group of people within the Universal church. Our Evangelical catholic forefathers often had much more biting words to refer to the Roman Catholic Church.

Of course as such I consider Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians to have denominations. And as I stated before, it is interesting because Eastern Orthodoxy could actually be broken up into 15 denominations based on what Patriarch you are under.

However a Roman Catholic or the Orthodox can take Apostolic succession and they could not only refer to protestant groups as not even being churchs but they could also they could go as far as to consider them as not even being Christian. (Well the current Roman Catholic catecism states that we are Christians) They can by their own beliefs seperate themselves from the fold and term denomination.

As a side note I would be interested on the general Eastern Orthodox teaching on salvation status of the heterodox - Roman Catholics, Evengelical catholics, and Protestants. The Roman Catholic teaching is written in what I consider a purposefully unclear way, to which they probably would have better off saying "We don't know."

 

[gzt]

However I would work under the working definition of a group of churchs which have a formal agreement on doctrine and a leadership structrue - no matter how weak or strong would be the definition of a denomination.

What is interesting is that the Eastern Orthodox church, could actually be considered to be 15 different denominations by our understanding. The reason is that the Eastern Orthodox Church is organized under 15 seperate autonomous Patriarchs, each of which is independent of one another and none of which has any authority over the other. Each Patriarch has authority over a certain region in the world.

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinoble is recognized as having the highest office although its mostly recognized as a first among equals and his position holds very little power over the other autonmous Patriarchs.

This is not quite right. Given that a bunch of patriarchs could get together and depose another patriarch, they have power over each other severally if not individually. There are also only 9 patriarchates, though there are other autocephalous churches. They are governed by the same canon law - which also concerns their relation to each other - and held to the same rule of faith.

 

[trentlogain2]

denominations are admittedly man-made. the root cause of all the different churches and denominations springing up every day is sin. not always, but most of the time that's the case.

one positive side of a denominational church is that usually they will have a structured doctrinal statement. whereas some (but not all) non-denominational churches will be pretty lax in their government and statements of faith.

 

[Luther073082]

This is not quite right. Given that a bunch of patriarchs could get together and depose another patriarch, they have power over each other severally if not individually. There are also only 9 patriarchates, though there are other autocephalous churches. They are governed by the same canon law - which also concerns their relation to each other - and held to the same rule of faith.

Ahh I didn't know a Patriarch could be deposed. And thanks for correcting me on the autocephalous churchs, I assumed they all had patriarchs.

 

[gzt]

The main reason that Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians don't consider themselves a denomination and as "the church" is their belief in Apostolic succession as what defines the church.

Since they belive that apostolic succession defines the church they can claim to be one the true church.

...

However a Roman Catholic or the Orthodox can take Apostolic succession and they could not only refer to protestant groups as not even being churchs but they could also they could go as far as to consider them as not even being Christian. (Well the current Roman Catholic catecism states that we are Christians) They can by their own beliefs seperate themselves from the fold and term denomination.

Well, for the first, it's more complicated than that. I couldn't presume to speak for Catholics. On the one hand, no, that's not quite right since the issue of ecclesiology is a bit bigger than this issue of ecclesial polity, but, on the other, you have St Ignatius saying, "Where the bishop is, there is the church," so it is correct in another sense. But apostolic succession is also more than just saying, "Bishops come from bishops until you get back to the Twelve." In short, you're getting into a huge mess here and it doesn't help that you have a bunch of Protestant indoctrination (I don't say that dysphemistically) that colors your view of what's going on outside of Protestantism. The easiest way of approaching the issue is that Catholics and Orthodox both look at ecclesiology as intrinsically tied in with the eucharist.

 

[Rhamiel]

What is interesting is that the Eastern Orthodox church, could actually be considered to be 15 different denominations by our understanding. The reason is that the Eastern Orthodox Church is organized under 15 seperate autonomous Patriarchs, each of which is independent of one another and none of which has any authority over the other. Each Patriarch has authority over a certain region in the world.

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinoble is recognized as having the highest office although its mostly recognized as a first among equals and his position holds very little power over the other autonmous Patriarchs.

It is not at all similar to the Papacy which holds complete power over all of its bishops.

the Pope is respected as the first among equals, but there are other Patriarchs in the Church, there are Eastern Rite Churches each with their own Patriarch in the Catholic Church
the Pope is the Patriarch of the Latin Rite and most western people only know of the Latin Rite.
granted, the Eastern Catholic Churches are smaller then the Latin Rite (which they are in communion with) or the Eastern Orthodox Church (who they are not in communion with) but they are still very important

 

[Rhamiel]

to say that the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church are made up of "denominations" is silly
there are differant Churches and differant liturgies, but these are either social or jurisdictional differances
the Catholic churches are in communion with eachother, and share the same faith. The Eastern Orthodox churches are in commuinion with eachother and share the same faith.
You do not see this with Protestant Denominations, those that do have open communion or are in commionion with other denominations still have differant theologies so they can not be said to share the same faith

I think that people try to break down denominations too much though, like i have heard some Orthodox and Catholic Posters refer to 3,000 or 30,000 differant denominations, that is not really the case, like pointed out befre, you can share the same faith and have differant jurisdictional churches. So the number of Protestant Denominations (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Non-denominational ect) is much smaller then 3,000.

 

[Luther073082]

to say that the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church are made up of "denominations" is silly
there are differant Churches and differant liturgies, but these are either social or jurisdictional differances
the Catholic churches are in communion with eachother, and share the same faith.

The Roman Catholic Church I consider to be one denomination.

The Eastern Orthodox churches are in commuinion with eachother and share the same faith.

However they are run by different people which is my point. Confessional Lutheran churchs are often in communion with one another but run by different people and are considered to be different denominations. Even though our theologies are the same.

I think that people try to break down denominations too much though, like i have heard some Orthodox and Catholic Posters refer to 3,000 or 30,000 differant denominations, that is not really the case, like pointed out befre, you can share the same faith and have differant jurisdictional churches. So the number of Protestant Denominations (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Non-denominational ect) is much smaller then 3,000.

Again the question comes up as to how one defines a denomination. If we define it based on central leadership it could be defined as 3000. If we define it by doctrines and communion, its much smaller then 3000.

It can also not be forgotten that there are many Roman Catholic break away groups that still call themselves "Catholic" and are generally not considered protestant. I'm not just talking about the Sedevacantist groups, but also the Old Catholics and the groups that seperated from them.

Also the Eastern Orthodox have the Oriental Orthodox.

Fracturing is really a Christian problem and is seen all over. Not just in so called Protestant groups.

 

[catzrfluffy]

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." (1 Corinthians 11:19)

Guess there's that. But the rest is just saying Christ is divided.

 

[gzt]

Also the Eastern Orthodox have the Oriental Orthodox.

Well, the Oriental Orthodox broke off of the rest of Christianity in the 5th century, I wouldn't call them an Orthodox problem...

 

[Tink]

Wait. There are different names for different churches?

:hmm:

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Keep it coming. Good thoughts, everyone.

 

[GQ Chris]

I kind of like denominations, aside from doctrinal differences which is obviously points of contention, I think that the variety is great.

 

[Rhamiel]

It can also not be forgotten that there are many Roman Catholic break away groups that still call themselves "Catholic" and are generally not considered protestant. I'm not just talking about the Sedevacantist groups, but also the Old Catholics and the groups that seperated from them.

Also the Eastern Orthodox have the Oriental Orthodox.

Fracturing is really a Christian problem and is seen all over. Not just in so called Protestant groups.

yeah, there have always been schysmatic groups
there are also old calanderists and old belivers that broke off from the EO
and Old Catholics that broke off from the RC

but there have always been break away groups
it was only with the advent of Protestantism that the idea of The Church being a coherant body of believers was totaly destoried

 

[DougyP]

There are two types of denominations in the United States.

A: These denominations teach discipline. These denominations don't let someone who confess Christ as thier savior maintain a sinful lifestyle. They lovingly confront them (the way the bible says they should) with thier sin because they love them and what to help.

B: These denominatins teach politness. These denominations will let someone who confesses Christ to be savior to live a sinful lifestyle. They will not confront Christians with their biblical sin because they want them to keep going to church. They would rather them live in sin, than help them recognize their ways because each person should be able to live how they want.

Both catagories are Christ Loving. There are extremes in both. All churches in America fall into these catagories.

 

[Rhamiel]

faithfullisa

But denominations separate people. So, I think, it is harmful

it is not like the denomination seperates people
the denomination was made because a seperation was allready a reality