What YOU Believe Christmas is about...

[mulimulix]

It's that time of year again...THE WINTER/SUMMER SOLSTICE! But, I suppose most folks here prefer this time of year because it is Christmas.

I have done some research into the holiday itself and have found many (if not, all) of the rituals/customs done for Christmas were done by pagan religions BEFORE Jesus.

I have two questions:

1. Does this bother you as a Christian, that many or all of the customs you may do on Christmas was copied from other festivals?
2. (Without getting into an argument) If Christmas was, for some reason, completely proven false, would you still want to celebrate it? Why/why not?

I do not want to get into any arguments about the validity of the claims made against Christmas' legitimacy as I am already on thin ice for accidentally breaking the forum guidelines, but am willing to have a nice, friendly discussion on the topic.

Happy Holidays

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The ancient origins of some of the elements of the Christmas celebration are well known by this time. Most have not paid much attention to them however, preferring to place at least some Christian significance, mainly the birth of Christ, the promise of peace, and goodwill towards fellow man, upon it.................................................................................................. ................................................................................................................An interesting scripture may show how God looks upon such celebrations iis found in Jeremiah 10: 1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? FOR TO THEE DOTH IT APPERTAIN: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee..................................................................................................................................................................................................... While the tree sounds suspiciously like our modern Christmas tree it is really about false worship in general. Verse 7 states that this worship rightly belongs to God, not a carved idol or manmade God. Over the years the two dominant festivals, that of Christmas and Easter, have indeed been changed to glorify the true God. This began with Constantine who sought to 'Christianize' certain festivals centered around Pagan dieties and the solstices.....................................................................................................................................................................................................Regardless of its history the Christmas season is a fun and delightful time of year.

 

[solarwave]

I have two questions:

1. Does this bother you as a Christian, that many or all of the customs you may do on Christmas was copied from other festivals?

Not really because the pagan element has gone, all it is now is a nice tradition. Its not as if demons attach themselves to traditions Something is only a symbol for something else if it is believed to be so in my opinion.

2. (Without getting into an argument) If Christmas was, for some reason, completely proven false, would you still want to celebrate it? Why/why not?

What do you mean by proving Christmas false? That Jesus wasn't real?

Well if I was an atheist I probably still would because it is still a nice tradition.

 

[drich0150]

It's that time of year again...THE WINTER/SUMMER SOLSTICE! But, I suppose most folks here prefer this time of year because it is Christmas.

I have done some research into the holiday itself and have found many (if not, all) of the rituals/customs done for Christmas were done by pagan religions BEFORE Jesus.

Did you really believe that decorating pine trees or the burning of the "yule log" had anything to do with Christ?

I have two questions:

1. Does this bother you as a Christian, that many or all of the customs you may do on Christmas was copied from other festivals?

No because it help alot of pagans make the transition to Christianity

2. (Without getting into an argument) If Christmas was, for some reason, completely proven false, would you still want to celebrate it? Why/why not?

Christmas as we know it is false.. So yes we do still celebrate it. Most churches do not hide the fact that the actual Birthday of Christ has nothing to do with December 25. But as Paul says in: Col 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

This means we can do or celebrate whatever we want. We chose dec 25 to help those without Christ make to transition to Christ, and if for no other reason this is a worthy reason to celebrate the "birth" of Jesus.

 

[seashale76]

Holy Nativity is about celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Advent is a time of fasting. Christmas Eve is a time of strict fasting. During times of fasting, we are also meant to give alms to the poor. Christmas is spent in church celebrating the Divine Liturgy and partaking of the Eucharist. This is how Christians celebrate their feast days- in church. It really doesn't matter that this particular feast day was added to the Church Calendar in the fourth century (IIRC). This is a huge contrast to the revelries of pagan celebrations.

So, no I'm not bothered. I'll go to church on Theophany (the baptism of Christ) and get my holy water. We'll have the Blessing of the Waters. I'll go to church on St. Basil's Day (New Year's Day). We'll have Divine Liturgy. We'll have an Artoklasia (breaking of bread) service. Someone will put a coin in the bread for tradition's sake. We'll celebrate Christmas for twelve days- and it really only has significance in the life of the Church. Any traditions that were once pagan were long ago consecrated to Christ.

 

[Ih8s8n]

1. Does this bother you as a Christian, that many or all of the customs you may do on Christmas was copied from other festivals?

mulimulix: I don't celebrate Christmas for the very reasons that you've mentioned.

2. (Without getting into an argument) If Christmas was, for some reason, completely proven false, would you still want to celebrate it? Why/why not?

Here's a sample of why I don't celebrate it and never will.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7515724-3/#post56190928

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

God examines our hearts, if our heart is set on Jesus and celebrating his birth then that is what matters. It doesn't matter if we somehow mix in pagan rituals.

 

[salida]

The secular world high jacked christmas and commercialized it-so the festivals don't matter to me as they are pagan. Jesus IS the reason for the season not santa claus or the winter whatever the unbelievers call it. If christmas was proved wrong? To me this is like saying if gravity didn't exist do you think you would float? I won't answer these type of questions.

 

[laconicstudent]

The Nativity of Christ

YouTube - NATIVITY OF CHRIST / РОЖДЕСТВО ХРИСТОВО

 

[Blue Man]

The secular world high jacked christmas and commercialized it-so the festivals don't matter to me as they are pagan. Jesus IS the reason for the season not santa claus or the winter whatever the unbelievers call it. If christmas was proved wrong? To me this is like saying if gravity didn't exist do you think you would float? I won't answer these type of questions.

But you answered the question.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It's that time of year again...THE WINTER/SUMMER SOLSTICE! But, I suppose most folks here prefer this time of year because it is Christmas.

It's probably the LEAST pleasant time of the year for me - and only made WORSE by the endless string of maudlin "Christmas Stories" that the family watches on the (shudder) "HALLMARK CHANNEL"!!!! Dead soldiers, sick and dying children, lost pets, and LITTLE MATCH GIRLS - who freeze to death watching the image of their dead mother in the dying flame of their last match -

And then there's the economic complications, and the excessive food - and worst of all the hopeless attempts to re-capture - something from the dead past - and the inevitable disappointment when it "doesn't happen" (not for me - I expect nothing).

"I have done some research into the holiday itself and have found many (if not, all) of the rituals/customs done for Christmas were done by pagan religions BEFORE Jesus."

Yup - no question there. pretty much EVERYBODY in 2010 is aware of the "history of the holiday season-such as it is." (Jesus was PROBABLY born during the fall feasts - but surely NOT on 12/25).

"1. Does this bother you as a Christian, that many or all of the customs you may do on Christmas was copied from other festivals?"

Nope, not a bit. I've known it for decades.

"2. (Without getting into an argument) If Christmas was, for some reason, completely proven false, would you still want to celebrate it?"

It's ALREADY been proven to be "completely false" - so no big deal. BUT HEY!!!!! It's a MAJOR economic engine in the world, and it gets me two weeks off of work (a good thing). I don't "celebrate it now" - I Endure it until the foolishness is over, and things return to "normal" after the New Year. Two days more and we'll "get it back in the bag" till next Halloween.

In the Appliance industry there are TWO "Christmases" A Summer Christmas, and a Winter Christmas - when the sales of major appliances peak.

Oh and by the way Jesus WAS born (sometime), and He's my Savior. And all the stupidity of the "Modern Christmas process" doesn't affect that a bit.

 

[mulimulix]

Yup - no question there. pretty much EVERYBODY in 2010 is aware of the "history of the holiday season-such as it is." (Jesus was PROBABLY born during the fall feasts - but surely NOT on 12/25).

Oh, really? Well, why was there such a commotion with the whole New Jersey billboard controversy with the "You know it's a myth" slogan? If almost everyone knows that it is not actually celebrating what is claimed to be celebrated, then there shouldn't be controversy, right?

 

[Ih8s8n]

Oh, really? Well, why was there such a commotion with the whole New Jersey billboard controversy with the "You know it's a myth" slogan? If almost everyone knows that it is not actually celebrating what is claimed to be celebrated, then there shouldn't be controversy, right?

mulimulix: I'm surprised that I missed that one. Although I presently reside in Pennsylvania, I travel into NY pretty often due to my work and I've gone through the Lincoln Tunnel many times. I've never seen that billboard...maybe I've been taking a different route. Anyhow, I Googled what you said and here's a link to the story for anyone who might be interested:

'You know it's a myth': Atheist banner causes a storm at entrance to New York tunnel | Mail Online

Incidentally, the image of the 3 wise men arriving at the stable on that billboard IS a myth. According to scripture, they saw Jesus in his house and He was somewhere around two years old by that time.

Take care.

 

[mulimulix]

mulimulix: I'm surprised that I missed that one. Although I presently reside in Pennsylvania, I travel into NY pretty often due to my work and I've gone through the Lincoln Tunnel many times. I've never seen that billboard...maybe I've been taking a different route. Anyhow, I Googled what you said and here's a link to the story for anyone who might be interested:

'You know it's a myth': Atheist banner causes a storm at entrance to New York tunnel | Mail Online

Incidentally, the image of the 3 wise men arriving at the stable on that billboard IS a myth. According to scripture, they saw Jesus in his house and He was somewhere around two years old by that time.

Take care.

Hmm, could this be another Fox news story blown way out of proportion...?

Although I do live in Australia, I have subscribed to a couple of youtube channels which keep me up to date with various religion-related news stories in America, almost all of them (coincidentally?) are from Fox.

Australia is much more secular than American, but we are still a Christian nation. I think our notion of Christian is much more loose compared to America's, too. Here, Christmas is huge (like America), but I believe the majority of people who celebrate it are part-time Christians (people who are Christian, but don't go to church and, most likely, don't even believe in god) and even secular families. My friend has a Christmas tree in his home and he is even Jewish.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Hmm, could this be another Fox news story blown way out of proportion...?

mulimulix: I'm assuming that the account is true...I've just never seen the billboard myself (it's probably located on another route to the tunnel than the one that I normally take). As far as Fox news is concerned...let's just say that I don't watch it.

Although I do live in Australia, I have subscribed to a couple of youtube channels which keep me up to date with various religion-related news stories in America, almost all of them (coincidentally?) are from Fox.

I'm aware of such atheistic, how shall we say, "evangelizing" elsewhere. For example, the bus campaign in the UK immediately comes to mind. If you're not familiar with that one, then this link should help:

Atheist Bus – Official Website

I'm not promoting atheism, mind you. At the same time, however, I'm almost "happy" (hopefully you'll understand my use of such a word) that such campaigns are stirring up all over the place. A little opposition/persecution just might help to separate the wheat from the chaff. In other words, it's easy to profess to being a Christian when all is at rest (no opposition/persecution).

Australia is much more secular than American, but we are still a Christian nation.

Sorry, but I don't believe that ANY nation is truly a "Christian nation"...not even the good old USA where I reside. USA could easily stand for "Under Satan's Authority" as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of "Christian talk", but much/most of it is hypocrisy.

I think our notion of Christian is much more loose compared to America's, too.

Quite frankly, I think (based upon what I've witnessed) that most people's "notion of Christian" is way too "loose", to use your word. The word "Christ", from which "Christian" is derived, means "anointed", as in the anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT. As I've said elsewhere before, He's not called the HOLY Spirit for nothing. In other words, Christians ought to be HOLY, as enabled by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. In many places (including places/threads on this very forum), just the suggestion of holiness makes people cringe. "Only believe" seems to be the mantra of the day.

Here, Christmas is huge (like America), but I believe the majority of people who celebrate it are part-time Christians (people who are Christian, but don't go to church and, most likely, don't even believe in god) and even secular families.

I've heard such types mockingly referred to as "CEO's"..."Christmas and Easter Only" (both pagan holidays/holy days, anyway). Anyhow, you've helped to make my point. "Christians" who "don't even believe in God". An impossibility in reality and, yet, reality dictates that there are many such so-called "believers". It's a crying shame, really. Christians need to be truly born-again of God's Spirit and led by the same Spirit. Those who don't meet such requirements are really not Christians at all...no matter how much they claim otherwise.

My friend has a Christmas tree in his home and he is even Jewish.

Doesn't surprise me in the least...especially when one considers that it's a secular holiday/holy day to begin with. Incidentally, I'm not the least bit opposed to celebrating Christ's birth. It's just this particular calendar day and it's roots that I have a problem with (not to mention all the pagan garbage, such as mistletoe, holly, yule logs, etc., etc., attached to it).

Take care.

 

[mulimulix]

I'm not promoting atheism, mind you. At the same time, however, I'm almost "happy" (hopefully you'll understand my use of such a word) that such campaigns are stirring up all over the place. A little opposition/persecution just might help to separate the wheat from the chaff. In other words, it's easy to profess to being a Christian when all is at rest (no opposition/persecution).

Yes, exactly! This is what the man responsible for the billboard in NJ was saying. He said the purpose of the billboard wasn't to randomly accuse Christmas of being a mythical holiday, but for some people who drive by it to think "Wait, I don't believe in any of it, so why do I do it?" I don't know how they got the stat, but he also said there are an estimated 50 million 'closet' atheists in America. That's slightly up from the figure of 2%.

Regarding the CEO Christians, I believe this is for two reasons:

1. It has turned into a national holiday, rather than a religious holiday
2. Fear of punishment otherwise (i.e. hell)

I believe a big reason for many closet atheists not 'coming out' is because they (a lot of them) have been taught of hell as fact, and if there is even a shadow of a doubt in their mind that it is true, why change?

 

[Ih8s8n]

Yes, exactly! This is what the man responsible for the billboard in NJ was saying. He said the purpose of the billboard wasn't to randomly accuse Christmas of being a mythical holiday, but for some people who drive by it to think "Wait, I don't believe in any of it, so why do I do it?" I don't know how they got the stat, but he also said there are an estimated 50 million 'closet' atheists in America. That's slightly up from the figure of 2%.

mulimulix: I understand what you're saying and the intentions of the man responsible for the billboard, but here's the rub:

Christianity was NEVER meant to be just a "mental belief" in a story (the "myth" that some call it), anyway.

No, rather, Christianity has always been meant to be a vital relationship between two parties, God and man/woman, and that is precisely why God's covenant with His people is always likened to a marriage covenant in scripture where the "two become one". In Christianity, this "oneness" comes about when one is truly born-again of the Spirit of God or when one truly repents of their sins and turns back to God in faith of the atoning sacrifice that Jesus Christ has made on their behalf. If this truly occurs, then God promises to give "the earnest of the Spirit" or the downpayment or even dowry of the Spirit to those who truly belong to Him. In other words, God will indwell such individuals by His Spirit and this indwelling Spirit works sort of as a "deposit" that guarantees that God will one day raise such individuals from the dead by this same Spirit in the same manner in which Christ was raised from the dead. There's a BIG DIFFERENCE between this and just giving some "mental assent" to a bunch of stories that one has heard. As I've said to many people in the past, the main purpose of "the book of the Lord" (the Bible) is to bring one into direct contact/fellowship with "the Lord of the book". THIS is Christianity. Hopefully, you understand the vast difference between the two things that I've briefly described.

Regarding the CEO Christians, I believe this is for two reasons:

1. It has turned into a national holiday, rather than a religious holiday
2. Fear of punishment otherwise (i.e. hell)

I believe a big reason for many closet atheists not 'coming out' is because they (a lot of them) have been taught of hell as fact, and if there is even a shadow of a doubt in their mind that it is true, why change?

Those "closet atheists" are still atheists, though, so why not just "come out"? What are they afraid of? Persecution? It's almost funny (actually, it's sad) that ATHEISTS are the ones who are being persecuted in many cases and not CHRISTIANS. Things truly are backwards in many situations.

Take care.

 

[LondonAssyrian]

The incarnation of Our Saviour, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

What else would it be about?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Billboard campaign is about there BEING NO JESUS (or any God either for REAL "Atheists").

What everybody knows is that the "Holiday" itself isn't related to the actual EVENT of the nativity, either factually or Chronologically. Jesus wasn't Born on 12/25, and the wise guys didn't show up on 1/6

There's now a "Good without God" campaign here in Dallas - maybe the same Group footing the bill - but it doesn't seem that anybody has noticed. The "Suicide cleanup service" billboards, and the "Prevent Vegetable Abuse" billboards by a local condom shop got much more media attention.

 

[Harry3142]

Personally, I see Christimas as simply the date chosen to honor the birth of Christ. We remember the peril that his mother faced when she accepted the task of bearing and rearing him. We remember the task that Joseph accepted when he took Mary as his wife and Jesus as his son.