What would you do if it were proven that God didn't exist?

[Ken-1122]

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I am simply making the point.
However the reality is that wherever we deny God authority in our lives we give the devil authority and the outcome of that is never for our gain.The fact that the harm and final outcome of our 'sin' is not known at the first yielding (to temptation) does not mean there is no harm in the sin. Rather it reveals God's continual endeavour to protect us and draw us back Him in spite of our straying. It's like eating sugary treats and chocolates; we are drawn to them effortlessly and they seem harmless enough...yet ultimately they impact our health.

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God demands no such degradation. Men in reverence and awe of God choose to bow before Him. Jesus said the whole of the word of God is settled in this statement: Love God and love your fellow man as you love yourself. Hardly a demand for humiliation and degradation.



If you teach your child how to respect the laws of the road, how to avoid a dangerous intersection of traffic, how not to cross the road at that intersection .......and he disobeys you and is injured by a car.....can he then turn around and say you are a bad father? That you are to be blamed because you did not protect him from his suffering? Of course the father could follow the child continously, and prevent him from doing what he has been instructed not to do, but then the child is slave to the father, without any freewill and God does not want slaves.



God is holy and sin cannot enter into His presence. Through sin man has cut off the link he had to God from his birth. Each one of us choose the path of sin at some stage of our life and in so doing we cut off God. Through Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection, we have the opportunity to be reborn, that is have the original link with God re-established.

It is God's absolute desire and hope that we accept his outstreched hand and be reunited with Him now and for all eternity. Once we accept His truths we begin to see that God speaks to us in many ways and at every opportunity.



So to avoid being hypocritical I'm sure you will agree that this principle should apply for all situations and elements of society. If someone murdered a member of your family would an apology then suffice....?

Berachah (quote)
]“I am simply making the point. However the reality is that wherever we deny God authority in our lives we give the devil authority and the outcome of that is never for our gain”

(reply) I am making the point that people like me who deny the existence of your God and authority in our lives will also deny the existence of your devil and his authority over our lives as well and will be just as successful, moral, and happy as you can be

(quote)” If you teach your child how to respect the laws of the road, how to avoid a dangerous intersection of traffic, how not to cross the road at that intersection .......and he disobeys you and is injured by a car.....can he then turn around and say you are a bad father? That you are to be blamed because you did not protect him from his suffering?”

(reply) Hitler never hurt himself, he hurt OTHER people. There is a big difference between a disobedient child who hurts himself in the process of being disobedient and a mad man who spends his life killing others; your analogy fails.

(quote) “God is holy and sin cannot enter into His presence. Through sin man has cut off the link he had to God from his birth.”

(reply)Oh so man is forced to be born with an attraction to sin? So much for free will huh? Call me crazy but it seems to me if your god has such an aversion to sin, he shouldn’t have designed humans with such an attraction to it.
To punish a man for doing what he designed us to do is like breaking a man’s legs then punishing him because he walks funny

(quote) “So to avoid being hypocritical I'm sure you will agree that this principle should apply for all situations and elements of society. If someone murdered a member of your family would an apology then suffice....?”

I never said an apology will fix everything, let me put it this way; if somebody killed my family member and all he had was an apology, it won’t fix anything but I would rather he apologize to me than his God

Peace
Ken

 

[chris4243]

Now before we start, this is purely speculative. I don't care what it would take to prove it, let's just say theoretically that it was proven.

I'm curious what people's reactions would be in such a situation; what would you do? Burn your bible, resist, assume it's a sham? I'm simply curious that's all.

Ken

For me, very little change. I do good because it is good, not because of some promised heavenly reward. My concepts of good and evil won't change, since they are based on the Golden Rule. In fact, I think the moral behavior of many Christians will improve, once they can no longer say "this is bad because (my interpretation of the Bible says that) God says it's wrong so its wrong la la la la la la"

 

[berachah]

I am making the point that people like me who deny the existence of your God and authority in our lives will also deny the existence of your devil and his authority over our lives as well and will be just as successful, moral, and happy as you can be

Well the reality is there is a spiritual realm. 1st world cultures all accept and embrace the spiritual realm through witchdoctors, shamaans, spiritualists and other mediums. Religious faiths around the world acknowledge this and so too do those in the new age movement. A fraction of the world population, mostly westerners consumed by materialism and personal gain deny the spiritual realm - mostly through arrogance and ignorance. The real debate is which faith leads to enternal life.

I accepted Christ because he addressed three key issues for me; My past wrongdoing & the undoing of the influence of that, the restoring of my relationship with my Creator and my destiny in the afterlife. And since then I have witnessed many events that confirm the reality, power and love of God.

Hitler never hurt himself, he hurt OTHER people. There is a big difference between a disobedient child who hurts himself in the process of being disobedient and a mad man who spends his life killing others; your analogy fails.

What I said was that when mankind denies the will of God and rejects His instruction for life, there are consequences to those choices and we cannot then blame God for the outcome.

Oh so man is forced to be born with an attraction to sin? So much for free will huh? Call me crazy but it seems to me if your god has such an aversion to sin, he shouldn’t have designed humans with such an attraction to it.

To punish a man for doing what he designed us to do is like breaking a man’s legs then punishing him because he walks funny

Man is not forced to sin...but he naturally chooses the path of disobedience of his parents. No child is forced to take drugs, but brought up in an environment where drugs are frequently taken and encouraged, there is a strong likehood they will. Children brought in an environment of sin and rebellion towards God as we all were, follow the same path. And even though we reject God and end up with a funny walk He is continually trying to draw us back to Him. He never gives up on us.

I never said an apology will fix everything, let me put it this way; if somebody killed my family member and all he had was an apology, it won’t fix anything but I would rather he apologize to me than his God

But I'm sure you would demand 'justice'.

When we separate ourselves from God through sin there are consequences, yet God has allowed all sin to be placed upon Christ so that we can escape the consequences of our actions.

 

[Ken-1122]

Berach (quote) “Well the reality is there is a spiritual realm. 1st world cultures all accept and embrace the spiritual realm through witchdoctors, shamaans, spiritualists and other mediums. Religious faiths around the world acknowledge this and so too do those in the new age movement. A fraction of the world population, mostly westerners consumed by materialism and personal gain deny the spiritual realm - mostly through arrogance and ignorance.”

(reply) Popularity is not an indicator of truth

(quote) “I accepted Christ because he addressed three key issues for me; My past wrongdoing & the undoing of the influence of that, the restoring of my relationship with my Creator and my destiny in the afterlife. And since then I have witnessed many events that confirm the reality, power and love of God.”

(reply) I reject your “Christ” along with all the others; because after many years of study and observation I’ve concluded there is very little truth to the astronomical claims of any of the religions.

(quote) “What I said was that when mankind denies the will of God and rejects His instruction for life”

(reply) who is this “mankind” you keep referring to? You can’t refer to all humans as if they were one person when it comes to religion because there is such a diversity of opinions in that area. Many people do not reject your God and they shouldn’t be put in the same category as those who do, and visa versa.

(quote) “Man is not forced to sin...but he naturally chooses the path of disobedience of his parents.”

(reply) Because God designed it that way. He designed man with temptation all around him knowing what would result. Most parents would have kept such temptation away from their children

K

 

[berachah]

Popularity is not an indicator of truth

And what is truth?

I reject your “Christ” along with all the others; because after many years of study and observation I’ve concluded there is very little truth to the astronomical claims of any of the religions.

We all have free choice and we stand and fall, indeed we will be judged by our words and actions. You have confessed yours openly so I guess you are pretty confident about your doctrine and your destiny.

What I can tell you is I believe what I do because of real inner conviction of truth without doubt. Besides that I have prayed for people that have been healed from terminal diseases, set free from fear and addictions and seen relationships restored; I have had dreams and vivid visions of things before they came to pass in the lives of myself and others, I have witnessed miracles that defy logic and reasoning, I have fasted 40 days and nights on water (in spite of of my MD doctor brother's prognosis of pending death) during which I because aware of spiritual senses equivalent to our natural senses and much more. In short I have a testimony of why I believe.

Perhaps you can share your observations as to why you reject the truth of the Christ.

who is this “mankind” you keep referring to? You can’t refer to all humans as if they were one person when it comes to religion because there is such a diversity of opinions in that area. Many people do not reject your God and they shouldn’t be put in the same category as those who do, and visa versa.

There is good and evil. Where good is rejected, evil prevails and a person, a family, a society, mankind cannot blame God when they reject what he stands for and exclude Him from their lives.

Any man can form a religion tomorrow but it serves for little more than to make slaves out of a few fools. Perhaps if such a faith had lineage from the beginning of recorded history, perhaps if it could predict and prophecy the future, perhaps if it could deal with the sinful nature of man, perhaps if it could change us a people for better, perhaps then this religion is worth considering.....

Because God designed it that way. He designed man with temptation all around him knowing what would result. Most parents would have kept such temptation away from their children

Had man not chosen to ignore God's one commandment we would have not known sin. All it takes is faith and a little obedience and God takes care of the rest. But what is done is done and I am choosing the only way back to eternal life.

 

[bling]

It all depends upon which version of the Christian God was proven to exist! If it were the version I was taught and believed in during my Christian years; the big guy in the sky looking over your shoulder at everything you do, keeping score..... and is liable to send you to hell you don't grovel and worship him right, that kind of a God would change my life for the worse.

If it were the type of God some people believe in, the type that is all loving, will always forgive you when you mess up, everybody goes to Heaven, nobody goes to hell, except for maybe a few Hitlers. Stalins, and Amin's (people who deserve it) That's the type of God I can live with! If that were the God that existed my life wouldn't change at all because I could be as happy as I am right now.

Ken

That is what I have heard from others: Get worse or not change. So there is no good reason for you to know? Best God remains hidden.

 

[dliz]

Now before we start, this is purely speculative. I don't care what it would take to prove it, let's just say theoretically that it was proven.

I'm curious what people's reactions would be in such a situation; what would you do? Burn your bible, resist, assume it's a sham? I'm simply curious that's all.

Ken

Hi Ive been struggling for 2 months now. There is this atheist who used to be a christian questioned me about my beliefs. I was flabbergasted and dismayed because I cant give him an answer. He bashed me bible verses which I cant explain. I feel like I have disappointed God. I was so confused with God's existence to the point that I doubted Him. I made lame excuses not to go to Church and I even stopped praying. I was so lost anf then I stumbled into some Christian chat. I consulted help from the people there but I was very vexed because there answers didnt satisfy me at all. So I questioned them about their beliefs because I was really curious with their opinions and perspectives in life but they were accusing me false allegations that I'm really an atheist and not a christian. I was really hurt they would stoop something so low. I never thought they would do and say irrational things. They did horrendous things to me(i dont wanna numerate everything). I even apologized if I ever offended them(truly my intention was not insult nor offend someone. I was merely curious.)but they rejected it. And they call me horrendous names and everything. I was deeply hurt and crying at the same time. The main reason why some people refuse or reject christianity because the people itself are vicous and they act so superior and dominant. Even Gandhi said that he liked our God but not His people. My relationship with God is pretty stormy. I dont understand myself anymore. I feel like my life is a dark pit hole filled with loneliness and anxiety. What should i do?

 

[Ken-1122]

Bracnhah (quote) “And what is truth?”

(reply) A verified and indisputable fact.

(quote) “We all have free choice and we stand and fall, indeed we will be judged by our words and actions. You have confessed yours openly so I guess you are pretty confident about your doctrine and your destiny.”

(reply) Yes!

(quote) “What I can tell you is I believe what I do because of real inner conviction of truth without doubt. Besides that I have prayed for people that have been healed from terminal diseases, set free from fear and addictions and seen relationships restored; I have had dreams and vivid visions of things before they came to pass in the lives of myself and others, I have witnessed miracles that defy logic and reasoning, I have fasted 40 days and nights on water (in spite of of my MD doctor brother's prognosis of pending death) during which I because aware of spiritual senses equivalent to our natural senses and much more. In short I have a testimony of why I believe. [Perhaps you can share your observations as to why you reject the truth of the Christ.”

(reply)Thanks for sharing. As for myself, I guess I can start with the fact I used to be Christian. I was born in a Christian family, I went to church on a regular basis with my family where I learned to pray memorized prayers, and would read the parts of the bible pointed out to me by others.
By the time I was 10 yrs old, I got baptized even though at that time I didn’t completely understand what it really meant I was good at pretending that I did.
My parents always told me that even though they were going to Heaven, they couldn’t bring me along; that I would have to get to know God for myself, so by the time I was a young teenager I learned how to pray with conviction, and testify during testimony service, as well as most adults; I enjoyed the approval I received by impressing them that way. But deep down I knew I never felt the touch of God.

When I was 16 yrs old I decided I was going to find God for myself, that I was not going to fake it anymore; I wanted to get saved. I decided to do this by praying to God every night before I went to bed; that he would save me, and I was going to read the bible form cover to cover with an attempt to understand what I was reading. When people in church was praying for what-ever, I would be praying to God that he would save me. I knew not to go in front of the church and ask to be saved because I saw what happened to someone who did that, and I didn’t want to be put on display that way, so I wanted to find God by myself.

When I prayed to be saved, nothing happened and when I read the bible I would see things in the bible that didn’t make sense, or that was totally wrong; but I just assumed this was the devil trying to trick me into giving up. Sometimes I would ask more experienced Christians about some of the issues that appeared wrong in the bible, but they would only make me feel guilty for thinking that way

By the time I was 18 I quit praying to get saved and I began to pray for God to show me a reason to believe because I felt my faith was starting to fade. Also at this time I was getting picked on by bullies. They would never attempt to harm me because I was always a big guy so they wouldn’t dare hit me but they would make fun of me and insult me because they knew I would take it. The reason I took it was because I thought this was a test from God to see if I were serious

By the time I was 22 yrs old I was exhausted and confused with my attempts to get to know God. Everything I had attempted in life, if I put my mind to it I would always become one of the best around at it; basket ball, weight lifting, track, whenever I put my mind to something I would succeed at it; but when it came to getting saved, I failed. So I prayed one last prayer; I told God I was not going to try to find him anymore, when you are ready for me, here I am.
After that prayer I never prayed again but I continued to go to church for a while and I would still read the bible but when I saw parts that didn’t make sense or sounded immoral, I quit making excuses for it
By the time I was 24 I quit going to church and no longer called myself a Christian. At first I would call myself an agnostic because atheist sounded like such a dirty word, but eventually I began calling myself a skeptic; which I still consider myself one now.

Well that’s how I quit being a Christian and became a skeptic. I hope that answers your question and Thanks for listening.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

That is what I have heard from others: Get worse or not change. So there is no good reason for you to know? Best God remains hidden.

I disagree! In this case, I think the truth is always best; even if it is a little painful

K

 

[chris4243]

Bracnhah (quote) “And what is truth?”

(reply) A verified and indisputable fact.

Like the fact that Obama is a natural-born American citizen, who is not a secret Muslim, communist, nor fascist? Just saying, cause no one disputes any of that.

 

[Iakobos]

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And what is truth?


We all have free choice and we stand and fall, indeed we will be judged by our words and actions. You have confessed yours openly so I guess you are pretty confident about your doctrine and your destiny.

What I can tell you is I believe what I do because of real inner conviction of truth without doubt. Besides that I have prayed for people that have been healed from terminal diseases, set free from fear and addictions and seen relationships restored; I have had dreams and vivid visions of things before they came to pass in the lives of myself and others, I have witnessed miracles that defy logic and reasoning, I have fasted 40 days and nights on water (in spite of of my MD doctor brother's prognosis of pending death) during which I because aware of spiritual senses equivalent to our natural senses and much more. In short I have a testimony of why I believe.

Perhaps you can share your observations as to why you reject the truth of the Christ.


There is good and evil. Where good is rejected, evil prevails and a person, a family, a society, mankind cannot blame God when they reject what he stands for and exclude Him from their lives.

Any man can form a religion tomorrow but it serves for little more than to make slaves out of a few fools. Perhaps if such a faith had lineage from the beginning of recorded history, perhaps if it could predict and prophecy the future, perhaps if it could deal with the sinful nature of man, perhaps if it could change us a people for better, perhaps then this religion is worth considering.....



Had man not chosen to ignore God's one commandment we would have not known sin. All it takes is faith and a little obedience and God takes care of the rest. But what is done is done and I am choosing the only way back to eternal life.

Personal experiences are such a fickle thing to base your belief on. Your not the only one to experience such things but have you really analysed them? dreams and visions can be explained away easily. Even miracles can fall when put under the microscope. Sometimes people are afraid to really confront the experiences they had or even offer the possibility that it wasn't God. Unexplainable does not automatically equate to God. Heaps of other religions see visions and have spiritual experiences of their own, christianity does not have a monopoly on this. With all that said, i'm not discrediting whatever happened to you. Only saying that when it comes to things of an unexplainable nature you should be skeptical.

 

[berachah]

Personal experiences are such a fickle thing to base your belief on. Your not the only one to experience such things but have you really analysed them? dreams and visions can be explained away easily. Even miracles can fall when put under the microscope. Sometimes people are afraid to really confront the experiences they had or even offer the possibility that it wasn't God. Unexplainable does not automatically equate to God. Heaps of other religions see visions and have spiritual experiences of their own, christianity does not have a monopoly on this. With all that said, i'm not discrediting whatever happened to you. Only saying that when it comes to things of an unexplainable nature you should be skeptical.

Personal experiences are the foundation of everyones faith and belief system in life. Experiences shape our character and personality more than anything else.

My friend, if anything I over analyze and I am without doubt the most skeptical person I know. If I have a dream, I pray for revelation of the meaning; I do not rest until I have understanding. If someone does not get healed through prayer, I seek the answers. And I have had discussions and debates with everyone from Muslims to new agers to eastern religion freaks....all to help me understand what and where and who I am. I do accept there are unknows about my faith. If there is something that I do not understand I do not rest until I have an answer on a matter. I do not entertain the luxury of athiests who simply say I don't know or of weak Christians who say I believe because the Bible says so.

To me God and the Bible have all the answers to every question in life and I have not been disappointed yet. I wish that every Christian could challenge themselves and God in such a manner....and I believe if it were so, that luke warm and compromised Christianity would be a thing of the past.

 

[bling]

I disagree! In this case, I think the truth is always best; even if it is a little painful

K

Why? Do you feel knowledge is power?

Right now you have an excuse for not “Loving” God, but if you know Him there is no excuse. You might feel “obligated” in some way to act like you Love Him and that is totally not what God wants.

Why do you personally need a benevolent God to change your life in what way?

 

[Ken-1122]

Like the fact that Obama is a natural-born American citizen, who is not a secret Muslim, communist, nor fascist? Just saying, cause no one disputes any of that.

Good point! Even though Obama’s citizenship has been verified, there will always be those nut-jobs who will dispute it. I guess kinda like those nut-jobs on the other side of the political spectrum who was saying before, that George Bush planned 911 so he can go into Iraq, or that he blew up the walls in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina so he could see a bunch of black people die.
I guess one of the flaws of freedom is you will always have a certain number of stupid people who will have the right to spread their stupidity like a virus.

Good point though, the truth will not always be undisputed; or even verified now that I think of it.

K

 

[Brenda Morgan]

Like the fact that Obama is a natural-born American citizen, who is not a secret Muslim, communist, nor fascist? Just saying, cause no one disputes any of that.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Deut 5:20

Unless you have evidence for the gossip you are passing around, you should not be violating God's commandment.

 

[Faulty]

Now before we start, this is purely speculative. I don't care what it would take to prove it, let's just say theoretically that it was proven.

I'm curious what people's reactions would be in such a situation; what would you do? Burn your bible, resist, assume it's a sham? I'm simply curious that's all.

Ken

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:32, "If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'"

... and I agree.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Now before we start, this is purely speculative. I don't care what it would take to prove it, let's just say theoretically that it was proven.

I'm curious what people's reactions would be in such a situation; what would you do? Burn your bible, resist, assume it's a sham? I'm simply curious that's all.

Ken

Assume the next most rational position (to me): humanism.

 

[Ken-1122]

Bling (quote) “Why? Do you feel knowledge is power?”

(reply) Not always, I’m just not that big on the “ignorance is bliss” thing.

(quote) “Right now you have an excuse for not “Loving” God, but if you know Him there is no excuse. You might feel “obligated” in some way to act like you Love Him and that is totally not what God wants.”

(reply) Well if he did exist, there would be only 2 possibilities: first that he is good; which I would sincerely love him, or that he is bad, which I would only pretend that I loved him if he threatened to harm me if I don’t. If he is bad he would probably harm me even if I didn’t know him so my ignorance wouldn’t help me.

(quote) “Why do you personally need a benevolent God to change your life in what way?”

(reply) How did you come under the impression that I need a benevolent God to change my life?

Faulty (quote) “Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:32, "If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'”

(reply) Humm…. Fortunately Paul doesn’t make up the rules huh?

K

 

[Pure760]

The existance of God has already been proven beyond doubt to me so this question is impossible to answer without making somthing up. A more valid question for everyone..

What if it it was proven that only perfect love is real?

 

[bling]

(reply) How did you come under the impression that I need a benevolent God to change my life?

K

God only wants to help those that will accept His help, so if you do not want/need God’s help, He will leave you alone. God helps is pure charity given to undeserving recipients, so if that is not you, God is going to be working other places.