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What would the education system look like if we allowed creationism as science?

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busterdog

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Like how, here in Australia, it's not legal for an under-18 to buy alcohol but it's entirely legal for the kid to scull as much as he wants as long as someone overage buys it for him? Sneaky schoolies.

I don't really know. You may be interested to know that over in Malaysia, we don't actually have evolution in our high-school syllabus. I'm not sure if we have it in our state-run 18-19-year-old pre-university courses but I doubt so, either. Ronald Numbers' The Creationists classified this as a creationist education system and upon hindsight that's not too surprising.

Then again, Malaysia is two-thirds Muslim. Probably not a good model for you white folk. ;)

No doubt religious education is problematic. I dont doubt that it is a troublesome issue. That is not a reason to avoid it.

And when the kid is 17 1/2, I say, dont have a cow, give him a beer. (But not a six pack or the car.) And, when called upon to participate in public school, I would say, "If you dont like it, sue me."

"Consider the possibility that indeed God did it"? I know God did it. ;)

I find I am starting to forget what we agree on and what we dont. Its all starting to sound the same.

As long as this is the way that the issue is posed - "Okay, we can teach kids that science did it or we can teach kids that God did it" - then Christian theism has lost, pure and simple. It may be obvious to the atheist that God is not an option. What is not obvious is that, to the theist, God cannot be an option either.* God is not an option; God is essential.

But, isnt God always an option? Even the words says

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I dont think God is shy about stacking His life against the other option. And, being post-fall, its a bit late to quibble anyway.

But, even an atheist would respond to sincerity, humility and pedagogical zeal to seek the truth and impart it honestly.

The bigger danger is that religion would be taught badly. But, kids arent all morons. They can do a lot with a little truth. They ought to have the chance.

In practical terms, I think Newtonian mechanics are a good example. There are plenty of gaps in Newtonian mechanics. There's lots of nature that it can't explain. Do we see high-school textbooks mentioning that? When I was learning about Newtonian mechanics in school there was no mention at all of regimes in which it didn't work. Why doesn't anybody want to teach the Newtonian controversy?

Good example.

Every scientific theory has its limitations, its regime outside which it breaks down. I wonder if there is any point teaching children about where a scientific theory breaks down unless they can be shown what picks it up after that. Of course, that probably reflects my bias as a scientist.

Apart from any religious content, I think your example is an area where great humility is dictated, or at least, very, very helpful. I can understand why many would want to avoid didactic Sister Mary Elephant administering the ruler to students who dont understand creationist principles. Such things appeal to the pride of religious understanding. By contrast, the limitations you mention speak for one of the most naturally rewarding and reliable qualities -- humility. Brain power is all well and good, but humility has such enormous power in finding answers. "Goddidit" is compatible with the humility one needs to examine difficult subjects. There are other ways to encourage humility, but none are inherently any better than saying, Here is God, with a whole heaping pile of the most mysterious answers, compared to you, with relatively few answers.

Humility also allows religion to be taught as other things are taught, rather than imparted by manipulation.
 
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Mallon

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With virtually unsolvable questions, I still dont see how Goddidit is inferior to any other explanation for what appears to be virtually impossible to measure and understand.
For one, it answers the wrong question. Science asks HOW something happens, not WHO makes it happen.
 
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juvenissun

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Do we teach kids that "Okay, science knows how A, B, and C happened, but science doesn't know how X, Y, and Z happened - therefore God may have caused X, Y, and Z"?

Wrong.

The correct way to teach the kids is: " ..... - But, the existence of X, Y, and Z do not say that God does not exist, nor saying that God has nothing to do with them."

God Did It is the foundation of creation science, it should never be used as the excuse of not studying in creation science. I don't know why is this concept so hard to understand. If I were the teacher, I would give them homework assignment:

"Make your model to explain X, Y, and Z. And don't forget to thank God for giving you the idea at the end."

That is creation science education.
 
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RobertByers

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So what happens when we "teach the controversy"? What happens when we tell children that saying "then a God stepped in" is a perfectly valid answer?

The slogan should be teach the truth. Then watch the schools/gov't squirm as they say their censorship of creationism has nothing to do with a official opinion on whether God/genesis is the truth.
If they say it is a official opinion then they have broken the church/state concept while using it for the original censorship.
No way around it.
If you can't teach Genesis is a option for the truth in origins then you can't teach it isn't by teaching another option is the truth.
Creationism just needs better lawyers.
 
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shernren

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I find I am starting to forget what we agree on and what we dont. Its all starting to sound the same.

Freaky, innit? Converging on the truth with someone you thought was out to philosophically gut you and stick your head on a pike. ;)

I do have sympathy for your views. But sympathy, limited concurrence, and complete agreement are quite different things.

Goddidit is a statement of the fact that, at some level, we dont have better explanations for why, is valid. But, it is vague. We just arent always clear to what level the mystery can ever be removed. But, if you look at the mystery of the flagellum, even after Ken Miller, quite a bit of mystery remains. With the example of the singularity, there is again, at least a virtually unknowable quantity.

Let me teleport you to my humble room in Canberra, three days ago. I'm analyzing about an hour's worth of video taken through a microscope a few days before. The research concerns optical vortices: basically, little rings of light that attract beads (in the sample) to them and whirl them around, like Calvin slinging up a snowball at unsuspecting Susie.

As I examine the videos and jot down observations a strange fact emerges. It seems that smaller beads go around the vortices slower, up to a certain radius. What's stranger still is that past a certain radius, bigger beads also go around the vortices slower. It is as if you, slinging rocks around your head (for some reason - maybe you are facing down a Philistine giant, or preparing to) with the same strength found that rocks two inches across would go the fastest, and that smaller rocks go around slower! Quite counterintuitive.

I don't quite have a heuristic explanation for why this happens, much less a quantitative one.

What if you (since you have been teleported to the moment of my confusion) had told me "Look, shernren! You can't figure out how the time of revolution around an optical vortex is related to the radius of the bead used. You don't have a naturalistic explanation! Goddidit!"

Of course it doesn't fit.

Positively speaking, I think there's some sense in which we all intuitively get that feeling of the sacred around life, around art, around mystery. And insofar as ID is an attempt to explore that (i.e. when it doesn't turn into a silly political attempt to smuggle creationism into schools), I think it needs a little credit. But it also needs a big push in the right direction. I don't feel the sense of the sacred when I come across optical vortex behavior that I can't explain. And yet this is the same guy who has a sneaky suspicion that God threw in fairy dust some time during His creation process. What's the difference? It's not just in inexplicability. We don't automatically feel God whenever we're faced with a problem science can't solve. What makes us feel God? That's the real question ID ought to be answering.

But negatively speaking, there are a few problems with the idea of Goddidit as you describe it.

Firstly, I always was sure that it's God who pushes the beads around the optical vortex, whether I understand how He does it or not. I may not feel particularly impressed watching Him do it, of course. But it's a theological truth that is there, whether or not I can explain the beads going around. God was doing it all the time. It was just a matter of whether I could figure out His pattern or not.

Secondly, "Goddidit" isn't how Christian scientists operate in real-life, anyhow. Tomorrow I'm going to go into the lab, try to replicate the experiment with even more beads of different sizes, and see how those fit onto the graph I have. There's nothing inherently irreverent about that, is there? Nothing godless about trying to find the pattern. Indeed, I will probably more thankful to God if I do figure it out, not if I don't!

Thirdly, "Goddidit" isn't going to get me anywhere. If I fervently believe that somehow God is behind my chaotic little beads and pray hard before I go to bed tonight, that isn't going to help me get a good grade on this summer project (much less publish a paper, which seems pretty far out of reach at this point anyway). It might even make me a better Christian somehow (though like I said, I'm hoping for a miracle of understanding :p ) but it definitely wouldn't be science.

I hope that answers your question:

With virtually unsolvable questions, I still dont see how Goddidit is inferior to any other explanation for what appears to be virtually impossible to measure and understand. Goddidit doesnt explain much, but it does put the pursuit of science in proper perspective. Relative to the full truth, we are way short of it. How is that a bad thing?

I try much harder when I can't figure out why beads are going around laser rings, and other scientists try much harder when they can't figure out why all life uses DNA or cytochrome c. It's how science works.

=========

Here's a question that's always ready-to-reheat whenever the topic of education and ID comes up. What does the ID syllabus look like?

The force of this question is that in any scientific subject at high-school level, the syllabus is (or should be) a series of falsifiable propositions. Take physics, Newtonian mechanics. My teaching outcome would be: students ought to know Newton's three laws. My teaching method would be: get students to do experiments that demonstrate the truth of Newton's three laws.

The only kind of principle an experiment can demonstrate is a falsifiable one. For example, I want to teach the kids Newton's first law: a body at rest tends to stay at rest, or a body in motion maintains its velocity, in the absence of external forces. "Okay kids, let's throw some stones into the air. (*Crash* goes the window.) They didn't follow straight lines, did they? What went wrong? Is Newton wrong?" All of a sudden a four-hundred-year-old law looks vulnerable. Truth up for grabs. Can we fix it?

Any science course has experiments that demonstrate falsifiable hypotheses. What does the ID course look like? What experiments can be run in the lab? I think the attempt to answer that, by itself, is a pretty good answer for why ID shouldn't be taught in the classroom.
 
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Mallon

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Any science course has experiments that demonstrate falsifiable hypotheses. What does the ID course look like? What experiments can be run in the lab? I think the attempt to answer that, by itself, is a pretty good answer for why ID shouldn't be taught in the classroom.
Here's how Philip Johnson, head of the ID movement, would answer your question:

I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is ready for competition in the educational world.
 
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shernren

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Here's how Philip Johnson, head of the ID movement, would answer your question ...

There's the classic William Dembski quote:
You're asking me to play a game: "Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position." ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it's not ID's task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC [irreducibly complex] systems that is what ID is discovering.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#cite_note-90
(emphasis added)

Doesn't make sense. I know that an intelligence is responsible and indispensable to my optical vortex experiment, not only God's but my supervisor's and (to a far smaller extent) mine. That doesn't stop me from playing connect the dots.

And lab experiments are nothing but connect-the-dots. Even theoretical and mathematical physics is one big game of connect the dots. What right does ID have to not try to connect the dots and still call itself science?

The big dot that ID is missing, as far as I'm concerned, is that humans recognize "intelligent design". Intelligent design is an externally-imposed recognition onto certain biological systems. Do flagella know that they are "intelligently designed"? Doubt so.

Note that this recognition exists even in those who believe that design can be explained away materialistically. Do you hear me? Mechanistic explanation does not destroy a sense of design. For ID people to claim that is, to me, a gross mis-reading of the human spirit. Dawkins' watchmaker(s) might be blind, selfish and completely amenable to scientific investigation - but try as he might, he cannot tear himself away from that word "watchmaker".

So what inspires the sense of design? It's not inexplicability. The rotation rates of microbeads in optical vortices doesn't strike me as a particularly eloquent proof of God's existence, even though they are a scientifically observed phenomenon with no explanation. On the other hand, the grand vastness of the tree of life strikes me as being evidence for God's creativity, even though I believe that evolution may well come to explain it all from root to branch. And I suspect that even the most hardcore atheist feels the same way, even if they may not use the three letter word in describing their basic tuggings. It's not about naturalistic methods, it's not about apes and men, it's not about whether dots can be connected or not.

What is it? ID is a monumental example of finding a brilliant question and trying to meet it with a ridiculous answer.
 
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juvenissun

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Someone help me on this, please. I am lost in this thread.

How many hours are needed to teach the content which exclusively belongs to ID?

My answer is: 10 minutes, or shorter.

If so, what are the other stuff taught in any ID science course? If an ID science textbook has 200 pages, how many pages are the "real" idea of ID? I would say probably fewer than 10.

One may discuss all the philosophies behind the idea of ID. But they do not belong to a science course of ID.

If so, what is wrong to offer an ID science course?
 
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Mallon

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How many hours are needed to teach the content which exclusively belongs to ID?

My answer is: 10 minutes, or shorter.
Aye. You said it. Doesn't sound like there's much to ID at all if you can cover all the material in 10 minutes.

If so, what is wrong to offer an ID science course?
What would be the point? You just admitted yourself that there's not much to the idea.
 
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philadiddle

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Evolution is still a theory, if I am not mistaken.
I can't believe people still say this. I mean, someone who's never really paid attention to the "controversy" may say something like this, but when you've been on this forum for years, it means you are totally ignoring anything said to you, or you are deliberatly being dishonest.

Once something is elevated to the status of a scientific theory, there is no where higher for it to go. It doesn't become fact or law, it will always be a theory, but not just a theory, the theory that unifies the facts and laws and evidence and makes predictions about the world that will be continually confirmed. A theory really is as good as it gets, it's the big show, the thing that makes sense of the world we live in.

Please, will a YEC please explain to mean why you would contiually say something like "it's just a theory" after it's been explained to you what a theory is in science. Maybe you are trying to say something else?
 
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AV1611VET

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Please, will a YEC please explain to mean why you would contiually say something like "it's just a theory" after it's been explained to you what a theory is in science. Maybe you are trying to say something else?
A theory means there's plenty of room for it to be disproven. It's not, as we say, set in cement or cast in concrete, or any other thing. It is a theory, and a theory subject to dismissal.
 
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juvenissun

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Aye. You said it. Doesn't sound like there's much to ID at all if you can cover all the material in 10 minutes.


What would be the point? You just admitted yourself that there's not much to the idea.

Give a practical example, I teach classical (secular) petrology. And I believe graduate (or undergrad) students in ICR also have chance to learn (creational) petrology. How different are these two petrology courses? I believe the difference is minimum or none. And, if I could, I would like to conclude my last (or the first) lecture with some ideas of creationism.

There is absolutely nothing wrong to teach creation science in school. Students are not learning less science, but learning MORE science.
 
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Mallon

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Give a practical example, I teach classical (secular) petrology. And I believe graduate (or undergrad) students in ICR also have chance to learn (creational) petrology.
Not according to their course list:
http://www.icr.edu/geology/

How different are these two petrology courses? I believe the difference is minimum or none.
Petrologists don't appeal to a recent global flood to explain the origin of earth's rocks. I think the difference would be profound, even if ICR did teach a petrology course.
Are you sure you teach petrology?

There is absolutely nothing wrong to teach creation science in school. Students are not learning less science, but learning MORE science.
Creationism isn't science.
 
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philadiddle

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A theory means there's plenty of room for it to be disproven. It's not, as we say, set in cement or cast in concrete, or any other thing. It is a theory, and a theory subject to dismissal.
"Room for it to be disproven", meaning, it hasn't been disproven?
 
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philadiddle

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Give a practical example, I teach classical (secular) petrology. And I believe graduate (or undergrad) students in ICR also have chance to learn (creational) petrology. How different are these two petrology courses? I believe the difference is minimum or none. And, if I could, I would like to conclude my last (or the first) lecture with some ideas of creationism.

There is absolutely nothing wrong to teach creation science in school. Students are not learning less science, but learning MORE science.
I guess we should teach other creation beliefs as well, after all, it's MORE science that the students will be learning. The indians around where I live have an exciting tale of wolf spirits creating us. There is science in scientology as well, and let's not forget the ever impressive Ramtha School of thought. They believe that aliens altered the DNA of early primates to make us. They have their own history of the world including a global flood, evolution, and all sorts of things thrown into the mix. We could go on with different creation views, and remember, they all have there apologetics. Since you are not purely motivated by religion, and science is your goal, then I'm sure you'll include all of these other sciences as well.
 
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gluadys

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Give a practical example, I teach classical (secular) petrology. And I believe graduate (or undergrad) students in ICR also have chance to learn (creational) petrology. How different are these two petrology courses? I believe the difference is minimum or none.

You would not get agreement from this ICR grad.


http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
 
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juvenissun

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You would not get agreement from this ICR grad.


http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

I think this link does not say anything about the teaching of petrology (it is more related to sedimentology and stratigraphy). May be the part of cave is relevant. But Morton's comments on that were all wrong even from a secular geological point of view.

I understand that for a rare creation institute such as the ICR, she has a great burden in trying to make the Bible (such as the Global Flood) and geology consistent to each other. However, this should not be difficult to handle in the curriculum design. ICR should still teach classical (so-called the mainstream) geological facts, theories and models as any other schools, but adding many seminar courses to the issues of creation. The linked article only addressed a few problems which should be discussed in a course may be called "Geology of the Global Flood". In fact, to offer such a course is only possible in a creationism university, and I can see a great value of it. This is what I said earlier that creation science has an entirely different function in post graduate science education.
 
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