What would option 3 look like

[stranger]

This is why I have not read it because I have already been told about it and know that it is rhetoric propoganda

Its a pity that you listen to sinners telling you what to do ... but simply look at teh documents listed as the references... they are almost all church documents by church authorities ... so is the church claiming its own documents are rhetoric propaganda ?

 

[Debi1967]

Its a pity that you listen to sinners telling you what to do ... but simply look at teh documents listed as the references... they are almost all church documents by church authorities ... so is the church claiming its own documents are rhetoric propaganda ?

You mean that I listen to the Church telling me what to do and that I am the blind being led by the blind don't you?

It seems stranger that you do not have the appreciation that I can make choices on my own the same way that you have and that I can say the same thing about you.... That you are the blind being led by the blind, or by sinners .....

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[stranger]

You mean that I listen to the Church telling me what to do and that I am the blind being led by the blind don't you?

It seems stranger that you do not have the appreciation that I can make choices on my own the same way that you have and that I can say the same thing about you.... That you are the blind being led by the blind, or by sinners .....

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

You have me very wrong my friend, I am not here to judge anyone ... simply to point out what scripture says and what the church says... and observe, not judge, the differences ... God gave us scripture to reprove to , to instruct on how to follow Jesus in righteousness... there is no point in following a church down teh broad way if you can see what scripture says :-

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The churches must eventually reprove to scripture and cease this division which is not in God's truth but in their private interpretations which leave much of scripture OUT ... God's word is NOT for ANY interpretation, it expalins itself without interpretation if one simply atlkes it all in before deciding what it says... the churches do not accept it all else they would agree in one, as Jesus and saints do with God ...

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

If you feel judged by what scripture says, that is 'pricks' from God , not from me....

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[Debi1967]

You have me very wrong my friend, I am not here to judge anyone ... simply to point out what scripture says and what the church says... and observe, not judge, the differences ... God gave us scripture to reprove to , to instruct on how to follow Jesus in righteousness... there is no point in following a church down teh broad way if you can see what scripture says :-

The churches must eventually reprove to scripture and cease this division which is not in God's truth but in their private interpretations which leave much of scripture OUT ... God's word is NOT for ANY interpretation, it expalins itself without interpretation if one simply atlkes it all in before deciding what it says... the churches do not accept it all else they would agree in one, as Jesus and saints do with God ...
If you feel judged by what scripture says, that is 'pricks' from God , not from me....

Umm I don't feel judged by Scripture at all stranger .... please do not assess something to what I am saying that is not there.

Btw you have not truly answered my questions ... A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Another point is I feel that you should not be reprimanding other Christians simply because they do not believe the same way you do, that in itself is judging them.

 

[*Starlight*]

Are you talking about Non-Trinitarians ????

Well, not only about them... there are different kinds of Christians who don't fully agree with the Nicene Creed.

 

[Debi1967]

Well, not only about them... there are different kinds of Christians who don't fully agree with the Nicene Creed.

provisions have always been made for them on this site

 

[*Starlight*]

provisions have always been made for them on this site

No, there were some Christians on CF who weren't allowed to post in the CO areas before the recent changes.

 

[Debi1967]

No, there were some Christians on CF who weren't allowed to post in the CO areas before the recent changes.

who those that were in actuality opposed to the trinity by opposing core beliefs of it

 

[*Starlight*]

who those that were in actuality opposed to the trinity by opposing core beliefs of it

Well, everyone who disagreed with something in the NC wasn't allowed in the Christian-only section, and there's more in the NC than just the Trinity... But if CF is trying to unite all Christians, then it should accept non-Trinitarian Christians and other Christians who don't fully agree with the NC.

 

[Debi1967]

Well, everyone who disagreed with something in the NC wasn't allowed in the Christian-only section, and there's more in the NC than just the Trinity... But if CF is trying to unite all Christians, then it should accept non-Trinitarian Christians and other Christians who don't fully agree with the NC.

As to those Non-Christians

1Jo 2:21 I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.


So if they deny this
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

IOWS that Jesus is Divine then they also deny the Father as well

 

[Grizzly]

As to those Non-Christians

1Jo 2:21 I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.


So if they deny this
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

IOWS that Jesus is Divine then they also deny the Father as well

I don't think its the Jesus was divine concept that gives most "Nonchristian Christians" problems, but the logically impossible position that he was 100% God and 100% man. Something cannot be both A and B if A and B contain mutually exclusive properties.

At least that's been my observation of many of the Nonchristian Christians that post in General Apologetics.

 

[Debi1967]

I don't think its the Jesus was divine concept that gives most "Nonchristian Christians" problems, but the logically impossible position that he was 100% God and 100% man. Something cannot be both A and B if A and B contain mutually exclusive properties.

At least that's been my observation of many of the Nonchristian Christians that post in General Apologetics.

God is God and therefore anything is possible for God as he is the Creator of all things possible including Logic itself

 

[*Starlight*]

As to those Non-Christians

I was talking about Christians who don't accept the NC, not about non-Christians. But I think it's good that non-Christians have the access to all forums on CF now.

 

[Grizzly]

God is God and therefore anything is possible for God as he is the Creator of all things possible including Logic itself

This is really a topic for General Apologetics, so I won't respond here. If you want to start a thread about God being able to bend the laws of logic, feel free...and be prepared to offer a vigorous defense

 

[GenemZ]

who those that were in actuality opposed to the trinity by opposing core beliefs of it

Not so fast. That would have been the right way.

A little back ground.

RCC and EO teachings dictated how the Creed was to be interpreted. For their churches were the source of its writing.

Did you realize that both churches say Mary is the Mother of God? That God was both born, and God could die? That she was not simply the mother of Christ? Humanity.

Yes..... And? That if you believe God did not die on the Cross? That to them, you are saying Jesus is not God.

If you tell them that only the humanity of Christ can die? Then? You are saying he was not truly one with God. Yet, Jesus was both true humanity and Deity in one person. But? God in himself is not humanity. And, humanity in itself is not God.

It is God who makes the humanity one with Deity, not the other way around. And? It does say Jesus died for our sins, not God.

See the problem?

Add to that? if you can become a real pain in the neck to RCC and EO members by demolishing their teachings, such as we drink the literal blood of Jesus? And eat his literal flesh? And? Present the embarrassing passage where Jesus forbids us from calling anyone of earth father? And watch them scramble with damage control which can never work? And, disassemble many other teachings they preach that can not be validated in the Word of God? You become a target of bias that will watch you like a hawk.

If you are good at refuting them? And, it makes them mad? When they finally get to be a majority vote? Guess what? It does not matter if you believe in the Deity of Christ. You believe God did not die on the cross! You believe God was not born!

The humanity God caused to be God, died. The humanity God caused to be God was born. But? Its impossible for the ever existing Deity to either die, or be born.

Make sense? But, its not what the church believed when the Creed was written. So? You can not bear a Christian cross! And you must post in the non Christian section. We do not care if you proclaim Jesus to be God. We do not care what verses you use to prove it. Your interpretation does not agree with ours.

That's how it began. Then when I tried to enter my appeal? It did not stop on God dying and being born. I was asked one thing after another about the Deity of Christ that I never even covered. For, the emphasis kept shifting as to stall me from returning.

And? I was never given the supposedly offending posts that got me banned in the first place, as to be able to clarify what I said.

They booted us out. Not just me. During this period when RCC and EO's were becoming a vast majority in evaluation..... Protestants formed a private blog as to create a petition to Erwin about this problem. For we were beginning to refer to here as being the Catholic Forum, not the Christian forum.

People were being booted who knew much more Biblical truth than the ones booting them out, because the ones who were doing the booting thought their church teachings were infallible!

So? I think that is why Erwin made his present move. To break of the log jam and to get the waters flowing again.

Funny thing happened.

While I was posting over in the section for non Christians? I received a PM from a man who is studying for the ministry. He was puzzled as to why I was not calling myself a Christian, because he said I understood the Deity of Christ better than he did.

Now, what you stated was the way it should be when done in fairness and justice. That was not happening here. Its over. Now we need to reform and to avoid the abuses that got us where we are now.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

 

[GenemZ]

God is God and therefore anything is possible for God as he is the Creator of all things possible including Logic itself

Logos = Word. God is the Logos.

Logos is also from the root word for logic. God is never illogical. He created logic so we can know Him.

Its when others tell us we have strong faith when we accept what is illogical? Its a lie.

Just because we do not understand something at the moment does not mean the answer is to be illogical. That jumps right into the arms of religious superstition and paganism if we believe what is illogical.

Ephesians 1:7-9 (New International Version)
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ."
​

We are to come to UNDERSTANDING what we first believed. We are not to remain in a state of acceptance of what we are told is the truth and remain ignorant how it is the truth.

Romans 10:2 (New International Version)

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
​

​

Some churches teach that we are never to question, but to be obedient to what it tells us. That the church holds all the answers we are to never question.

But? That is not what God's Word tells us to do!

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

​

We are to question for ourselves what we have been told. God is not pleased if we simply submit to what we are told as if obedience and submission are virtues in themselves! We submit to be taught. We are to be obedient to what is truth. But, we are to prove all things, and keep that which is good only!

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Read that? Understand what it says?

Here was a top Apostle! Paul! And the Bereans were considered more noble for testing and proving all Paul said by examining the Scriptures for themselves. ......... For themselves.

God's Word - not man's.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

​

 

[Debi1967]

Logos = Word. God is the Logos.

Logos is also from the root word for logic. God is never illogical. He created logic so we can know Him.

Its when others tell us we have strong faith when we accept what is illogical? Its a lie.

Just because we do not understand something at the moment does not mean the answer is to be illogical. That jumps right into the arms of religious superstition and paganism if we believe what is illogical.

Ephesians 1:7-9 (New International Version)
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ."
​

We are to come to UNDERSTANDING what we first believed. We are not to remain in a state of acceptance of what we are told is the truth and remain ignorant how it is the truth.

Romans 10:2 (New International Version)

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
​

​

Some churches teach that we are never to question, but to be obedient to what it tells us. That the church holds all the answers we are to never question.

But? That is not what God's Word tells us to do!

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

​

We are to question for ourselves what we have been told. God is not pleased if we simply submit to what we are told as if obedience and submission are virtues in themselves! We submit to be taught. We are to be obedient to what is truth. But, we are to prove all things, and keep that which is good only!

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Read that? Understand what it says?

Here was a top Apostle! Paul! And the Bereans were considered more noble for testing and proving all Paul said by examining the Scriptures for themselves. ......... For themselves.

God's Word - not man's.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

​

more anti-catholic rhetoric

Assuming yet again that Catholics simply submit to everything they are told without even examining the Scriptures for themselves

 

[DaughterofEve]

 

[stranger]

Logos = Word. God is the Logos.

Logos is also from the root word for logic. God is never illogical. He created logic so we can know Him.

Its when others tell us we have strong faith when we accept what is illogical? Its a lie.

Just because we do not understand something at the moment does not mean the answer is to be illogical. That jumps right into the arms of religious superstition and paganism if we believe what is illogical.

Ephesians 1:7-9 (New International Version)
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ."
​

We are to come to UNDERSTANDING what we first believed. We are not to remain in a state of acceptance of what we are told is the truth and remain ignorant how it is the truth.

Romans 10:2 (New International Version)

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
​

​

Some churches teach that we are never to question, but to be obedient to what it tells us. That the church holds all the answers we are to never question.

But? That is not what God's Word tells us to do!

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

​

We are to question for ourselves what we have been told. God is not pleased if we simply submit to what we are told as if obedience and submission are virtues in themselves! We submit to be taught. We are to be obedient to what is truth. But, we are to prove all things, and keep that which is good only!

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Read that? Understand what it says?

Here was a top Apostle! Paul! And the Bereans were considered more noble for testing and proving all Paul said by examining the Scriptures for themselves. ......... For themselves.

God's Word - not man's.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

​

You have done a good service to the site by evaluating the reasons behind the need top post this discussion... let me see if I cannot aid with a logically POSSIBLE sense in which man can be all God...

Simply for sake of argument consider the possibility [not proven, not disprovable] that God's relation to man is analagous to men's relation to vitual characters whom men craete in computer virtual realities ...

The virtual character can be made with all the characteristics of the creator and so be the craetor as far as the vitual world is concerned... myet the creator is in complete control, can create, anihilate, resurrect , prophesy , at will... thime in virtual reality is not the same as time for the creator...

the creator is wholly separate and yet controld the created...

If it were that way [and I leace it to others to decide, it is not relevant here if it is true] then the created could be the creator as far as the world could know the creator , and be the created as well...

The point then is that it is logically possible , one can create a possible example and so iyt is not a logical impossibility as some have claimed...

Putting the point in scriptural context, Jesus showed us the father in himself , thus he was God to us, God with us even [Emmanuel] , as a man...

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

As regards rhe death of Jesus, there is not a probelm either, the death of theman is not the death of God , it contrdicts nothing....

 

[hopperace]

Yes. That is a lovely 3rd option, and very original thinking I might add - a wetsuit, so "we can go swimming with the dolphins". There is so much philosophical entente contained within that image that I am seriously impressed. You are wise beyond your years. Thanks. I'll go look for a matching hat and footwear.

And you'll need to update your Armory wish list now.