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What would option 3 look like

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stranger

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Christianity merged with Paganism under Constantine:-
Christ is only one of several of his gods.
For Constantine, Christ may have rated as a god along with other gods, and the professors of Christ's religion along with the servants of the pagan deities.
It is indeed a possibility that Constantine developed a kind of superstition in favor of Christ, and that he may even have brought that name into some kind of confused relationship with the sun-god.

Constantine supported Different Religions. A great inconsistency in Constantine's outward bearing persists; he accepts the monogram of Christ as the emblem of his army and has the name of Jupiter on his triumphal arch erased, but at the same time he retains the old gods on his coins, and especially the sun-god as his unconquerable companion, and on important occasions his outward conduct is entirely pagan....he wished to give direct guarantees to both religions, and he was powerful enough to maintain a twofold position.

Common Day of Worship Instituted by the Pagan For Pagans and Christians alike
At times he tried to find basically neutral expressions for religious practices which Christians and pagans alike should observe.
Of this character is the common Sunday and the common Pater Noster. He taught all armies zealously to honor the 'Lord's Day', which is also called the 'day of light and of the sun'....the pagans too were required to go forth into an open field on Sunday, and together to raise their hands, and recite a prayer by heart to God as giver of all victory:"

He Constructed Temples For Pagan Religion.
It is precisely in the last decade of his life that Constantine gives certain very plain indication of un-Christian, even of directly pagan, sympathies.
While he and his mother were ornamenting Palestine and the large cities of the Empire with magnificent churches, he was also building pagan temples in the new Constantinople...
At the consecration of the city certain occult pagan practices were demonstrably celebrated; the solemnities involved superstitions of all sorts, which later writers vainly seek to identify with Christian worship.

Church and State Unite!!
Constantine found the clergy already so suitably organized for power ... he therefore gave the clergy every possible guarantee of favor, even as far as a sort of participation in rule, and in return the clergy were the most devoted agents for spreading his power, and completely ignored the fact that he still stood with one foot in paganism and that his hands were over and again stained with blood."

Corruption.
About this time the organization of the Church already showed the beginnings of a regular hierarchy ... the choice of spiritual leaders ... came more and more to be distinguished from the laity [congregation, church!!] as clergy.
Distinctions arose among the bishops according to the position of the their cities and with particular consideration for the apostolic foundation of certain congregations.
The synods, which were convened for many various reasons, served to unite the bishops as a higher rank. Among the bishops themselves serious degeneration becomes apparent as early as the third century.
We find many of them sunk in worldly pomp, as Roman officials, as merchants, even as usurers.

 
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E.C.

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Dude, EVERY thing you just said about Constantine is wrong.

Christ is only one of several of his gods.
Wrong. Constantine was Christian, thus a monotheist, thus there was only one higher up (spiritual wise) God. And by God I mean the Trinity.

Really the only ones who could say this and get away with it are those that say Christianity is a polytheistic religion.

Constantine supported Different Religions.
Since when does tolerating and not killing just cause equate to being non-Christian?:scratch:
Did Constantine participate in pagan sacrifices? Did he kill Christians just because they were Christian? Did he impose this belief or that on everyone?

Common Day of Worship Instituted by the Pagan For Pagans and Christians alike
Actually, Constantine said the "Lord's Day" bit because it was a Sunday (or if you don't like the English language, it is Sonnerstag in German) that Christ resurrected. Simple. Have Christians meet on the day Christ resurrected because what the Western World calls Easter, the Orthodox East calls "Pascha". Sunday, when we all go to church, is a mini Pascha. We meet on the day of the week Christ resurrected in remembrance and reverence of Him.

He Constructed Temples For Pagan Religion.
Actually, when Constantinople (New Rome) was founded, it was decreed that it shall be free of anything pagan. And still has (although some would consider Islam to be pagan).

Church and State Unite!!
Constantine had little say in the Church. Reason for Church and State uniting was because the people are part of the Church, the State is supposed to protect the people and their interests (in this case the Church) thus the State is to protect the Church; meaning that if somebody on the border of the empire attacks the Church, the State gets involved.

Corruption.
The Church already had a heirarchal form of administrative government. Any study of real Church history would say so.
 
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Shubunkin

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Christianity merged with Paganism under Constantine:-
Christ is only one of several of his gods.
For Constantine, Christ may have rated as a god along with other gods, and the professors of Christ's religion along with the servants of the pagan deities.
It is indeed a possibility that Constantine developed a kind of superstition in favor of Christ, and that he may even have brought that name into some kind of confused relationship with the sun-god.

Constantine supported Different Religions. A great inconsistency in Constantine's outward bearing persists; he accepts the monogram of Christ as the emblem of his army and has the name of Jupiter on his triumphal arch erased, but at the same time he retains the old gods on his coins, and especially the sun-god as his unconquerable companion, and on important occasions his outward conduct is entirely pagan....he wished to give direct guarantees to both religions, and he was powerful enough to maintain a twofold position.

Common Day of Worship Instituted by the Pagan For Pagans and Christians alike
At times he tried to find basically neutral expressions for religious practices which Christians and pagans alike should observe.
Of this character is the common Sunday and the common Pater Noster. He taught all armies zealously to honor the 'Lord's Day', which is also called the 'day of light and of the sun'....the pagans too were required to go forth into an open field on Sunday, and together to raise their hands, and recite a prayer by heart to God as giver of all victory:"

He Constructed Temples For Pagan Religion.
It is precisely in the last decade of his life that Constantine gives certain very plain indication of un-Christian, even of directly pagan, sympathies.
While he and his mother were ornamenting Palestine and the large cities of the Empire with magnificent churches, he was also building pagan temples in the new Constantinople...
At the consecration of the city certain occult pagan practices were demonstrably celebrated; the solemnities involved superstitions of all sorts, which later writers vainly seek to identify with Christian worship.

Church and State Unite!!
Constantine found the clergy already so suitably organized for power ... he therefore gave the clergy every possible guarantee of favor, even as far as a sort of participation in rule, and in return the clergy were the most devoted agents for spreading his power, and completely ignored the fact that he still stood with one foot in paganism and that his hands were over and again stained with blood."

Corruption.
About this time the organization of the Church already showed the beginnings of a regular hierarchy ... the choice of spiritual leaders ... came more and more to be distinguished from the laity [congregation, church!!] as clergy.
Distinctions arose among the bishops according to the position of the their cities and with particular consideration for the apostolic foundation of certain congregations.
The synods, which were convened for many various reasons, served to unite the bishops as a higher rank. Among the bishops themselves serious degeneration becomes apparent as early as the third century.
We find many of them sunk in worldly pomp, as Roman officials, as merchants, even as usurers.

At most, those are legends. We try to dig down to the real historic truth of these things.
 
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J4Jesus

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God is God and therefore anything is possible for God as he is the Creator of all things possible including Logic itself
:thumbsup:


1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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GenemZ

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See, you got it! :clap:

But, something here is not being addressed about the Nicene Creed. When the interpretation is left in the hands of the Churches that claim the correct understanding of its intent? There can be abuse. One can believe in the Deity of Christ, yet not agree with the Creed as they see it. They place agreement with the Creed as the deciding factor. Not if you believe Jesus is both fully God and fully man in one person.


I would PM you, but this is an issue that can effect any believer here by anyone administering if the prior format is returned with the same Creed.

We do not need the Creed to require a belief in the Trinity. Every church I know has their own statement of faith that does not use the Creed ....

I believe we all need to be shown the problem I speak of. Of a conflict of denominational bias.


In all due respect, sir? What happens if one can not accept the notion that God [Deity] died? That God [Deity] was born?

God? Eternally existing Deity? Can you honestly say the Deity of Christ is co-equal with the Father? And that God can die? How?

Jesus was fully God and fully man in one person. Would you honestly be able to say God died? God can be born?

The problem I faced (as you probably well know) was seeing only the humanity side of Christ being capable of dying and being born. To certain denominational bias thinking? In regards to the Creed? That was tantamount to denying Jesus is God. Yet? Jesus is both fully man, and fully God. Not God using a human body as hand puppet...

If we are to return to the Creed? One must first eliminate the potential of abuse by those who lay claim to the one true interpretation of HOW the Creed is to be interpreted.

How do you resolve that?

I can show you ten ways how Jesus is God. Yet, I was not in agreement with Creed according to some who demanded my Cross be denied me.

Please, let's not return to the old abuses just because we need a verification of belief in the Trinity. There are other ways it can be done so that no denominations can impose their bias upon you before they will deem you acceptable to be called a Christian.

Respectfully....
GeneZ
 
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stranger

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At most, those are legends. We try to dig down to the real historic truth of these things.

There is plenty of historic stuff out there , that people have put up on the web to show the truth about what what written about Constantine at the time , and it is very differnet from the spin of today's churches...

In this docunment you will find many of the references to learned folks and the ancient tects , thoose who made comment on the nature of the 'Nicene council' , how and why it came about, and the actual result , and what was and is ignored about it... enjoy getting a little closer to the truth , a little further from hearsay and propaganda....

http://www.joshuabooks.com/bushby/biblefraud/internalgif/jb_article2.htm
 
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stranger

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genez said:
Jesus is both fully man, and fully God. Not God using a human body as hand puppet...

God uses all men as 'hand-puppets'... what do you thing the spirit from God that moves all men is !!!

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death]shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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Grizzly

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:thumbsup:


1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

sigh.

A=A. No god can make that statement untrue. Even if you have an ancient manuscript that says otherwise.
 
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GenemZ

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Like a Statement of Faith found in many Bible believing churches today. Keep it simple. Cover the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected on the third day, etc....

Do not allow for the denominational abuses that the Creed was prone to.

Do you believe Eternal immortal God can die? Ironically. To say that is true? Its a denial of the meaning of Deity. Its denying the Deity of Christ. They may use the word "God." But, in the same breath? It denies who and what God is!


Grace and
truth, GeneZ

 
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GreenMunchkin

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Christianity merged with Paganism under Constantine:-

*weirdness snipped*
Woah. Ok, you do realise that none of that is actually true, right? I recall watching a documentary (on Channel 4, I think?) where they attempted to twist Christianity in that way, but they didn't actually cite any credible sources and, in fact, some fairly shallow research into it irrevocably disproves all of it. Is that where you got that from?
 
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GenemZ

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genez, "nm" means never mind. How do you get from that to your hobby horse?

Because, to most of us?.... "nm" simply means "nm".

And, what appeared above your "nm" was printed...

What Would Option 3 Look Like?

TLSTY?


In Christ, GeneZ
 
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Timothy

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Because, to most of us?.... "nm" simply means "nm".

And, what appeared above your "nm" was printed...

What Would Option 3 Look Like?

TLSTY?


In Christ, GeneZ
Uh, no. To most of us, "nm" means "never mind."

Tim
 
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Inan3

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:hug: What does "never mind" mean again? I get kind of slow on the uptake with CF definitions.
:groupray:


I hope this is all in jest because for the unbelievers I have encountered on this forum, this would just be fodder for what they consider Christian disunity, please tell me this is all in jest, and if not clean it up brethren, for it's just too petty for the sons and daughters of God.

I really should not have used hopperace's post to say this on because I know by his manner that he was making light of this foolishness.
 
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Inan3

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Woah. Ok, you do realise that none of that is actually true, right? I recall watching a documentary (on Channel 4, I think?) where they attempted to twist Christianity in that way, but they didn't actually cite any credible sources and, in fact, some fairly shallow research into it irrevocably disproves all of it. Is that where you got that from?

There is an element of truth to this because Constantine made it a "law" that everyone was to be a Christian. Hence, many non believers "pretended" for the sake of not being punished. Therefore, many non believers entered into the church and in turn, leadership positions, which then led to many "religious" and non scriptural practises and doctrines infiltrating the church. Of course, unlike "some" people suspect, there has always been the element of true christianity and it has over the years increased in proportions but is again in danger again, of the same things developing, not in the way it happened back then, but because the church, as a whole, has allowed the world to iniltrate their thinking and, sorry to say, doctrines.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is the day in which Christians need to be sober and watchful not neglecting but working out their own salvation. Being vigilant because our adversary the devil, (not each other)
goes about seeking WHOM he may devour! Let's keep ourselves unspotted from the world and keep each others' backs.

This is something we need to be wary about here on CF. That is why I think it unwise that non christians be able to be in leadership in one form or another ever in the chrisitan environment. If Erwins wants to allow for them to have their own site that is his business but I do not think it is wise to mix the two environments and MOST DEFINITELY not in the leadership positions.


We do not need to be anxious about this, though, that is why we have the Moderator of moderators, our Saviour Jesus Christ. He watches us and keeps us if we are diligently seeking Him.

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jude 1:24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
 
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hopperace

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I hope this is all in jest because for the unbelievers I have encountered on this forum, this would just be fodder for what they consider Christian disunity, please tell me this is all in jest, and if not clean it up brethren, for it's just too petty for the sons and daughters of God.

I really should not have used hopperace's post to say this on because I know by his manner that he was making light of this foolishness.
Thanks veteran saint,

I think it comes from posting in this format amongst such diverse godliness and elastic scholasticasitudinallity for so long. Communication is such a delicate and fractured thing in this format, and what is said that is not said and not said that is is often difficult for most of us (namely me :) ) to discern.

I think ideally Option 3 would be on the order & oder of seeing "face to face" ("For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known" - The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, 13:12 NKJV - yep, the Love Chapter). C. S. Lewis' 'Till We Have Faces is one of my favorite literary gems (or oders, if one prefers), but we earthbound CFers remain sort of multifaced and multifaceted with dim eyes, bold I's, and short tempers. Sometimes, I must confess, it becomes hard for me to tell if I'm even looking at one's face or another part of their anatomy.

I think we have effectively (or ineffectively) been individualistically unique for some time now, which may be a very good thing when it can be appropriately appreciated. One man's pettiness is another man's petliness, but here we all are in one place trying to find where we've left our spectacles and wondering if even our prescription is correct. I think we sort of all mean well when we're not being mean, but maybe I just need to get my hearing checked.

- hopper/kib
:groupray:
 
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