Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
God uses all men as 'hand-puppets'... what do you thing the spirit from God that moves all men is !!!
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death]shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
But, something here is not being addressed about the Nicene Creed. When the interpretation is left in the hands of the Churches that claim the correct understanding of its intent? There can be abuse. One can believe in the Deity of Christ, yet not agree with the Creed as they see it. They place agreement with the Creed as the deciding factor. Not if you believe Jesus is both fully God and fully man in one person.
I would PM you, but this is an issue that can effect any believer here by anyone administering if the prior format is returned with the same Creed.
We do not need the Creed to require a belief in the Trinity. Every church I know has their own statement of faith that does not use the Creed ....
I believe we all need to be shown the problem I speak of. Of a conflict of denominational bias.
In all due respect, sir? What happens if one can not accept the notion that God [Deity] died? That God [Deity] was born?
God? Eternally existing Deity? Can you honestly say the Deity of Christ is co-equal with the Father? And that God can die? How?
Jesus was fully God and fully man in one person. Would you honestly be able to say God died? God can be born?
The problem I faced (as you probably well know) was seeing only the humanity side of Christ being capable of dying and being born. To certain denominational bias thinking? In regards to the Creed? That was tantamount to denying Jesus is God. Yet? Jesus is both fully man, and fully God. Not God using a human body as hand puppet...
If we are to return to the Creed? One must first eliminate the potential of abuse by those who lay claim to the one true interpretation of HOW the Creed is to be interpreted.
How do you resolve that?
I can show you ten ways how Jesus is God. Yet, I was not in agreement with Creed according to some who demanded my Cross be denied me.
Please, let's not return to the old abuses just because we need a verification of belief in the Trinity. There are other ways it can be done so that no denominations can impose their bias upon you before they will deem you acceptable to be called a Christian.
Respectfully....
GeneZ
This is indeed severe injustice , the very OPPOSITE of loving , and shows the desperate state of the control of this site that these awful injustices are done here in the name of Jesus... many will answer to God for these crimes against fellow christians here, perpetrated simply because belief has NOT YET been reproved to what the scripture actually says ...
With such uncertainty and so many divers beliefs which cannot all eb the one truth of God [at most one, and quite possibly none CAN be one truth ... so much of what the masses believe can be reproved easily by scripture, yet very few indeed listen to all God's words
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
There is the mistake in modern divided christianity and it could not be more serious, NOT LISTENING to what Jesus has said , but believing what sinners preach !!
Since God demands that ALL who enter do so with OPEN minds , as little children willing vto learn only from Him, it is clearly the cause of the disaster that most christians close their minds on diverse teachings from sinners instead ... this is the ROOT cause of division, not listening to ALL God's words and not being open to accept them ALL...
The scripture IS a standard for righteousness of love and NOT subject to ANY private interpretation by sinners ... the saints are all taught by God Himself in baptism of the spirit , to come to know ALL truth [John16:13] ... it SHOWS how FEW find the narrow way to Jesus in THIS life , since very few indeed die baptised into all truth in this life , most die still sinners, not saints, unperfected in love , and thus unable to be translated [changed] to spirit ...
Thus , again, Jesus says it clearly, and why do christians ignore him, yet call him 'lord' :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
Sinners and sinner-priests all claim that the jknow Jesus, but Jesus says at his return that he NEVER knew any sinner because they still work iniquity ...
It is not that the saints were not siners too, but they gave up sin before death and so perfected love [sin = breaking Jesus' law of love]
Thus all who die sinners must be perfected in love after the second resurrection [and before judgment of course] ...in the new earth , then, in the kingdom come toall men ... and indeed that is what St Peter declares it will be like, the many living righteous [obeying the law of love] lives there :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Again, why do not christians listen to this from St Peter?
so many are redeemed between the second resurrection and judgment by perfecting their love in trial in the new earth..
Then people could give up their jealously of the Jews and House of israel for being chosen to be first redeemed, since thes same people minister as perfected priests to the masses in the kingdom of God , as God promised long ago, but few now listen to what God has said MUST be :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There are then many things people these days do not hear from God, so why any passion at all for stopping at three when counting aspects of God... sure one can count teh Father, the Son, and God's spirit, but why just those three ... God never said to stop counting at three did He ?
God has many sons , why not count them, in fact why count aspects of God at all, he never told anyone to do that , note the plural here :-
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Again the spirit of truth is NOT the only spirit of God in scripture, if one loves to count, why not count the others too ... there are more than ten in scripture... so why stop so soon.... the point is God didn't give the idea of 'trinity', He never suggested that any aspect of Him counted any more than being ONE with Him... Jesus is God, the Holy spirit is God , the saints become one with God ... there is no threeness here, just one-ness , many things are God, but ALL are ONE, none is three...
Simply look at where trinity was invented , not in scripture , not by God ... its just yet another man-made doctrine and it really is quite harmless to count three things that are God, UNTIL one truies to exclude other christians who see there are more than three sapects to God and many of them just as valid to be counted IF one wants to count... BUT WHY ??? The thing about god is His one-ness, He has no three-ness at all, He has MANY aspects, but all are one, not just three... the scripture of His own creation shows this clearly....
This is indeed severe injustice , the very OPPOSITE of loving , and shows the desperate state of the control of this site that these awful injustices are done here in the name of Jesus... many will answer to God for these crimes against fellow christians here, perpetrated simply because belief has NOT YET been reproved to what the scripture actually says ...
With such uncertainty and so many divers beliefs which cannot all eb the one truth of God [at most one, and quite possibly none CAN be one truth ... so much of what the masses believe can be reproved easily by scripture, yet very few indeed listen to all God's words
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
There is the mistake in modern divided christianity and it could not be more serious, NOT LISTENING to what Jesus has said , but believing what sinners preach !!
Since God demands that ALL who enter do so with OPEN minds , as little children willing vto learn only from Him, it is clearly the cause of the disaster that most christians close their minds on diverse teachings from sinners instead ... this is the ROOT cause of division, not listening to ALL God's words and not being open to accept them ALL...
The scripture IS a standard for righteousness of love and NOT subject to ANY private interpretation by sinners ... the saints are all taught by God Himself in baptism of the spirit , to come to know ALL truth [John16:13] ... it SHOWS how FEW find the narrow way to Jesus in THIS life , since very few indeed die baptised into all truth in this life , most die still sinners, not saints, unperfected in love , and thus unable to be translated [changed] to spirit ...
Thus , again, Jesus says it clearly, and why do christians ignore him, yet call him 'lord' :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
Sinners and sinner-priests all claim that the jknow Jesus, but Jesus says at his return that he NEVER knew any sinner because they still work iniquity ...
It is not that the saints were not siners too, but they gave up sin before death and so perfected love [sin = breaking Jesus' law of love]
Thus all who die sinners must be perfected in love after the second resurrection [and before judgment of course] ...in the new earth , then, in the kingdom come toall men ... and indeed that is what St Peter declares it will be like, the many living righteous [obeying the law of love] lives there :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Again, why do not christians listen to this from St Peter?
so many are redeemed between the second resurrection and judgment by perfecting their love in trial in the new earth..
Then people could give up their jealously of the Jews and House of israel for being chosen to be first redeemed, since thes same people minister as perfected priests to the masses in the kingdom of God , as God promised long ago, but few now listen to what God has said MUST be :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There are then many things people these days do not hear from God, so why any passion at all for stopping at three when counting aspects of God... sure one can count teh Father, the Son, and God's spirit, but why just those three ... God never said to stop counting at three did He ?
God has many sons , why not count them, in fact why count aspects of God at all, he never told anyone to do that , note the plural here :-
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Again the spirit of truth is NOT the only spirit of God in scripture, if one loves to count, why not count the others too ... there are more than ten in scripture... so why stop so soon.... the point is God didn't give the idea of 'trinity', He never suggested that any aspect of Him counted any more than being ONE with Him... Jesus is God, the Holy spirit is God , the saints become one with God ... there is no threeness here, just one-ness , many things are God, but ALL are ONE, none is three...
Simply look at where trinity was invented , not in scripture , not by God ... its just yet another man-made doctrine and it really is quite harmless to count three things that are God, UNTIL one truies to exclude other christians who see there are more than three sapects to God and many of them just as valid to be counted IF one wants to count... BUT WHY ??? The thing about god is His one-ness, He has no three-ness at all, He has MANY aspects, but all are one, not just three... the scripture of His own creation shows this clearly....
Nicene Creed is better. Keep in mind that it is all Scripture and was written in 325 as a response to the Arian heresy. I say this because of the heresy, people did not really know how to say what it is they believe and the Nicene Creed defines what Christians believe. It was edited to its current form in 381 at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople and one of the decisions of said Council was that the Creed can not be changed without the approval of another Council.
- How about just keeping it simple and writing it out.
I do not think this is the place to discuss this interesting area. What I was getting at, was that Jesus was not flesh that God used as a hand puppet. Meaning, he was not just a body possessed by Deity alone. He has a human soul!
Matthew 26:39 (New International Version)
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
God never has a conflict of will with Himself! Its the soul (humanity) that humbled himself to conform to the will of God!
Those who say God died on the Cross see Jesus as being only a body with Deity!
The man Jesus - body and soul - is what died on the Cross.
How can Eternal immortal Deity die? Impossible! Yet, those abusing the Creed made that a stipulation for anyone they wanted out of their face.
A soul can experience death. Not God!
Those who think God can die see Jesus as being fully God and a body.
Not, Deity, soul, and body. They fail to properly grasp the understanding that he was able to be fully man and fully God simultaneously.
This is indeed severe injustice , the very OPPOSITE of loving , and shows the desperate state of the control of this site that these awful injustices are done here in the name of Jesus... many will answer to God for these crimes against fellow christians here, perpetrated simply because belief has NOT YET been reproved to what the scripture actually says ...
With such uncertainty and so many divers beliefs which cannot all eb the one truth of God [at most one, and quite possibly none CAN be one truth ... so much of what the masses believe can be reproved easily by scripture, yet very few indeed listen to all God's words
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
There is the mistake in modern divided christianity and it could not be more serious, NOT LISTENING to what Jesus has said , but believing what sinners preach !!
Since God demands that ALL who enter do so with OPEN minds , as little children willing vto learn only from Him, it is clearly the cause of the disaster that most christians close their minds on diverse teachings from sinners instead ... this is the ROOT cause of division, not listening to ALL God's words and not being open to accept them ALL...
The scripture IS a standard for righteousness of love and NOT subject to ANY private interpretation by sinners ... the saints are all taught by God Himself in baptism of the spirit , to come to know ALL truth [John16:13] ... it SHOWS how FEW find the narrow way to Jesus in THIS life , since very few indeed die baptised into all truth in this life , most die still sinners, not saints, unperfected in love , and thus unable to be translated [changed] to spirit ...
Thus , again, Jesus says it clearly, and why do christians ignore him, yet call him 'lord' :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
Sinners and sinner-priests all claim that the jknow Jesus, but Jesus says at his return that he NEVER knew any sinner because they still work iniquity ...
It is not that the saints were not siners too, but they gave up sin before death and so perfected love [sin = breaking Jesus' law of love]
Thus all who die sinners must be perfected in love after the second resurrection [and before judgment of course] ...in the new earth , then, in the kingdom come toall men ... and indeed that is what St Peter declares it will be like, the many living righteous [obeying the law of love] lives there :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Again, why do not christians listen to this from St Peter?
so many are redeemed between the second resurrection and judgment by perfecting their love in trial in the new earth..
Then people could give up their jealously of the Jews and House of israel for being chosen to be first redeemed, since thes same people minister as perfected priests to the masses in the kingdom of God , as God promised long ago, but few now listen to what God has said MUST be :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There are then many things people these days do not hear from God, so why any passion at all for stopping at three when counting aspects of God... sure one can count teh Father, the Son, and God's spirit, but why just those three ... God never said to stop counting at three did He ?
God has many sons , why not count them, in fact why count aspects of God at all, he never told anyone to do that , note the plural here :-
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Again the spirit of truth is NOT the only spirit of God in scripture, if one loves to count, why not count the others too ... there are more than ten in scripture... so why stop so soon.... the point is God didn't give the idea of 'trinity', He never suggested that any aspect of Him counted any more than being ONE with Him... Jesus is God, the Holy spirit is God , the saints become one with God ... there is no threeness here, just one-ness , many things are God, but ALL are ONE, none is three...
Simply look at where trinity was invented , not in scripture , not by God ... its just yet another man-made doctrine and it really is quite harmless to count three things that are God, UNTIL one truies to exclude other christians who see there are more than three sapects to God and many of them just as valid to be counted IF one wants to count... BUT WHY ??? The thing about god is His one-ness, He has no three-ness at all, He has MANY aspects, but all are one, not just three... the scripture of His own creation shows this clearly....
You are conflating the self and the soul ,friend... the self is an illusion of identity , illusion because it is a purely determinate manifestation and has not freedom from the spirit which animates [moves] the flesh into life [soul, 'nephesh' in Hebrew]
Maybe its the way you tell em' [LOL?]
Jesus the man manifested perfect love which showed men the Father ... So Jesus was God as man [Emanuel] ,that does not stop the man dying [even though it could not be a just death since not only had he not sinned, but by perfecting love he was ready for translation ... he had no need to die at all except to show men the way through death by resurrection.... whereby even sinners can be resurrected and perfect their love in a new life in the new earth, thus Jesus showed the way all men can be brought to perfecetion of love and thus be acceptable for translation to spirit.. Etc....
Absolutely, brother!I am now even more convinced that we need something like the Creed here. We need some system for order and sanity.
IC, GeneZ
According to the scripture , the spirit of God created Jesus in the womb ... then the spirit baptised Jesus at the age of around thirty and his trial of faith began in perfection of his love ... in all these things it is the spirit of God that drives Jesus to be what he is ... thus , as he says, "Mty Father and I are one"... God thus does indeed possess the flesh of Jesus and guide it in perfect love all the way through rejecting all temptation ...
You rejected one set of woprds and accepted another , but both say the same thing !!
You are conflating the self and the soul ,friend... the self is an illusion of identity , illusion because it is a purely determinate manifestation and has not freedom from the spirit which animates [moves] the flesh into life [soul, 'nephesh' in Hebrew]
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The spirit, then, belongs to God, not to the self , and without the spirit man is dead , has no self ... and the spirit determines what a man does by moving one to act
Thuas as scripture states , all good and evil comes from God's 'mouth', [not from men's selves as in Greek mythology and their inconsistent 'philosophy'!] :-
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God then uses men to express both what He IS and what He IS NOT ... both love and evil acts of the lflesh moved by God... but part of the evil [in fact its greatest manifestation] is to assert that the 'pawn is the king' , that teh imagined self of the flesh is independent of the spirit, independent of God...
Thus we have this discussion , which you could resolve by reading teh scripture, if you believe it more than you believe inconsistent [now-] Western Philosophy on freedom of the self ... one could equally trace the idea back to its pagan roots which would explain the differing from scripture , but its major force on this site is the paganisation of religion by adopting such [easily disproven -see Spinoza for instance, or Saul Smilansky] philosophy ahead of the words of God on the matter ...
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
It has become the vain deceit of many selves to think that they are independently willed [even ignoring their own intelligence causes them to react and thus depend upon what they perceive, let alone what moves men] , so much so that men invent whole false judgment systems which fail utterly to control men , yet men will not see the implication of their failure for the theory of 'free-will'
Yes, well, there is much nonsense spoken by sinners in this world, what matter?
God is spirit , one cannot put spirit on a cross, one cannot kill spirit... Jesus the man died, Jesus the spirit did not, nor could... there is no problem here except the way men think...
The body died, the soul ended with the departure of the spirit to return to God who gave it... the soul is the life in a body animated by spirit, it is the body wi=hich dies, the life simply ends at death, the soul is no more until resurrection [hence the idea that the soul is 'unseen' in death, in 'hell' , the unseen state ...
That is of course WHY this discussion is VERY relevant here, despite what you say, because some people who do not understand scripture do want to exclude others from this site and make it an enclave of ye-men to their pet beliefs, which however are NOT consistent with ALL God's words, and thus are mistaken beliefs, not fit for use as judgment, whereas theya re repeatedly used here as judgment to exclude others who are interested in discussing and understanding the scripture...
The essential problem then is the closing of minds which have not tested their beliefs against all scripture of God... put such people in charge, as already happened here, and one get unloving injustices by the thousands in place of the love Jesus commands his followers to hev for all men [even their enemies!]
Sure, in fact God created Jesus so that He could come as close to experiencing death as anyone [LOL?]
I guess you meany experiencing dying? ... God surely can know our experience of dying , that is enough , and in fact it is all that we do too... none can experience death, it is nothing , oe knows nothing in death, nothing in 'hell' [so much for those who teach torment in hell, the dead know nothing of death , but experience only apparently immediate resurrection to the new earth ... or to Jesus' return if they were pefected in love in this life ,as saints] :-
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Jesus was both fully man, and fully God.
This I believe too, but this is far from sufficient explanation of what that means to anyone who does not understand how the man can die, but the God live [worse still when one realises that God is timeless, but the Jesus the man was bound in space and time]
I suppose some do think that 'God is dead' [and did little to help men] , some even think that spirit can die [which is a bizarre conflation]... it allcomes down to all-too-understandable misunderstandings, which need patient explaining from the scripture to dispell the false teachings of men [sinners, not saints]
Maybe its the way you tell em' [LOL?]
Jesus the man manifested perfect love which showed men the Father ... So Jesus was God as man [Emanuel] ,that does not stop the man dying [even though it could not be a just death since not only had he not sinned, but by perfecting love he was ready for translation ... he had no need to die at all except to show men the way through death by resurrection.... whereby even sinners can be resurrected and perfect their love in a new life in the new earth, thus Jesus showed the way all men can be brought to perfecetion of love and thus be acceptable for translation to spirit...
Nicene Creed is better. Keep in mind that it is all Scripture and was written in 325 as a response to the Arian heresy. I say this because of the heresy, people did not really know how to say what it is they believe and the Nicene Creed defines what Christians believe. It was edited to its current form in 381 at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople and one of the decisions of said Council was that the Creed can not be changed without the approval of another Council.
Well I didn't really want to have to say this but it really is NOT all scriptural.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
The above sentence gives no indication of a triune God. It makes it sound like the "one God" is the Father only.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
This one has a couple of issues but I will only address one.
Jesus is not the ONLY Son of God and defeats the purpose of the sufferings of Christ.
As we are supposed to have the stated aim of Uniting All Christians I think we should stick to the simplest statement of faith we can find and forget about all the historic controversies that were the subject of many conflicts and wars through our chequered history.
How about 'I believe in Jesus Christ, crucified, buried and resurrected!'
Absolutely, brother!
You have not answered by question. By what power and what authority do you speak against the doctrines of 2000 years of faithful scholarship by the Body of Christ?
Lisa
Please! Don't use my complaint about abuse by certain ones. To give way to the incoherent rhetoric you just spewed out. Its incoherent. Yet, I get the drift that you do not believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity is a True Doctrine. Don't use those who abused how its to be interpreted as an excuse for rejecting the Truth about the Trinity.
Please do not agree with "my cause" to try and promote a worse evil than what I faced. The Trinity is a True Doctrine. Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian.
In Christ, GeneZ
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?