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What would option 3 look like
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Inan3
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We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Or words to that extent!
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
How about just keeping it simple and writing it out.
[*]We believe in one God, and Creator of all, triune in being, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
[*]We believe that the Word was made flesh and lived among us as a man, Jesus the Christ.
[*]We believe Jesus was born of the virgin Mary and was miraculously conceived in her womb as the Holy Spirit came upon her and the power of the Highest enveloped her.
[*]We believe that Jesus laid down His life and was crucified on our behalf, for our sins, fulfilling the law, blotting out the ordinances that were against us, shedding His blood for the remissions or our sins, and partaking of our judgement in Hell.
[*]We believe that Jesus was raised again from the dead, on the third day, by the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit and was thereby, declared to be the Son of God.
[*]We believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead for our justification, securring for us also, the resurrection from the dead and a position of sonship.
[*]We believe a person must receive Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour to obtain the right to become a son of God and that they must be born of the Spirit to experience this sonship.
[*]We believe in the quickening and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who leads and guides us into all truth which is inherent in the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, the literal Word of God and reveals to us the things of the Father and Son.
[*]We believe in the Church as the Body of Christ, which is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, who are unified, yet differ one from another and are positioned, placed and gifted by the Holy Spirit to fulfill the calling of their Head, Jesus Christ.
Or words to that extent!
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GenemZ
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I do not think this is the place to discuss this interesting area. What I was getting at, was that Jesus was not flesh that God used as a hand puppet. Meaning, he was not just a body possessed by Deity alone. He has a human soul!
Matthew 26:39 (New International Version)
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
God never has a conflict of will with Himself! Its the soul (humanity) that humbled himself to conform to the will of God! Those who say God died on the Cross see Jesus as being only a body with Deity! The man Jesus - body and soul - is what died on the Cross. How can Eternal immortal Deity die? Impossible! Yet, those abusing the Creed made that a stipulation for anyone they wanted out of their face.
A soul can experience death. Not God!
Jesus was both fully man, and fully God. Those who think God can die see Jesus as being fully God and a body. Not, Deity, soul, and body. They fail to properly grasp the understanding that he was able to be fully man and fully God simultaneously.
In Christ, GeneZ
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- Oct 12, 2003
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This is indeed severe injustice , the very OPPOSITE of loving , and shows the desperate state of the control of this site that these awful injustices are done here in the name of Jesus... many will answer to God for these crimes against fellow christians here, perpetrated simply because belief has NOT YET been reproved to what the scripture actually says ...
With such uncertainty and so many divers beliefs which cannot all eb the one truth of God [at most one, and quite possibly none CAN be one truth ... so much of what the masses believe can be reproved easily by scripture, yet very few indeed listen to all God's words
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
There is the mistake in modern divided christianity and it could not be more serious, NOT LISTENING to what Jesus has said , but believing what sinners preach !!
Since God demands that ALL who enter do so with OPEN minds , as little children willing vto learn only from Him, it is clearly the cause of the disaster that most christians close their minds on diverse teachings from sinners instead ... this is the ROOT cause of division, not listening to ALL God's words and not being open to accept them ALL...
The scripture IS a standard for righteousness of love and NOT subject to ANY private interpretation by sinners ... the saints are all taught by God Himself in baptism of the spirit , to come to know ALL truth [John16:13] ... it SHOWS how FEW find the narrow way to Jesus in THIS life , since very few indeed die baptised into all truth in this life , most die still sinners, not saints, unperfected in love , and thus unable to be translated [changed] to spirit ...
Thus , again, Jesus says it clearly, and why do christians ignore him, yet call him 'lord' :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
Sinners and sinner-priests all claim that the jknow Jesus, but Jesus says at his return that he NEVER knew any sinner because they still work iniquity ...
It is not that the saints were not siners too, but they gave up sin before death and so perfected love [sin = breaking Jesus' law of love]
Thus all who die sinners must be perfected in love after the second resurrection [and before judgment of course] ...in the new earth , then, in the kingdom come toall men ... and indeed that is what St Peter declares it will be like, the many living righteous [obeying the law of love] lives there :-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Again, why do not christians listen to this from St Peter?
so many are redeemed between the second resurrection and judgment by perfecting their love in trial in the new earth..
Then people could give up their jealously of the Jews and House of israel for being chosen to be first redeemed, since thes same people minister as perfected priests to the masses in the kingdom of God , as God promised long ago, but few now listen to what God has said MUST be :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There are then many things people these days do not hear from God, so why any passion at all for stopping at three when counting aspects of God... sure one can count teh Father, the Son, and God's spirit, but why just those three ... God never said to stop counting at three did He ?
God has many sons , why not count them, in fact why count aspects of God at all, he never told anyone to do that , note the plural here :-
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Again the spirit of truth is NOT the only spirit of God in scripture, if one loves to count, why not count the others too ... there are more than ten in scripture... so why stop so soon.... the point is God didn't give the idea of 'trinity', He never suggested that any aspect of Him counted any more than being ONE with Him... Jesus is God, the Holy spirit is God , the saints become one with God ... there is no threeness here, just one-ness , many things are God, but ALL are ONE, none is three...
Simply look at where trinity was invented , not in scripture , not by God ... its just yet another man-made doctrine and it really is quite harmless to count three things that are God, UNTIL one truies to exclude other christians who see there are more than three sapects to God and many of them just as valid to be counted IF one wants to count... BUT WHY ??? The thing about god is His one-ness, He has no three-ness at all, He has MANY aspects, but all are one, not just three... the scripture of His own creation shows this clearly....
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Lisa0315
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By what authority do you discern these things of which 2000 years of Scholarship find false? Our Church Fathers would not agree with the statements you have made here.
Lisa
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GenemZ
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Please! Don't use my complaint about abuse by certain ones. To give way to the incoherent rhetoric you just spewed out. Its incoherent. Yet, I get the drift that you do not believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity is a True Doctrine. Don't use those who abused how its to be interpreted as an excuse for rejecting the Truth about the Trinity.
Please do not agree with "my cause" to try and promote a worse evil than what I faced. The Trinity is a True Doctrine. Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian.
In Christ, GeneZ
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E.C.
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Nicene Creed is better. Keep in mind that it is all Scripture and was written in 325 as a response to the Arian heresy. I say this because of the heresy, people did not really know how to say what it is they believe and the Nicene Creed defines what Christians believe. It was edited to its current form in 381 at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople and one of the decisions of said Council was that the Creed can not be changed without the approval of another Council.
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According to the scripture , the spirit of God created Jesus in the womb ... then the spirit baptised Jesus at the age of around thirty and his trial of faith began in perfection of his love ... in all these things it is the spirit of God that drives Jesus to be what he is ... thus , as he says, "Mty Father and I are one"... God thus does indeed possess the flesh of Jesus and guide it in perfect love all the way through rejecting all temptation ...
You rejected one set of woprds and accepted another , but both say the same thing !!
You are conflating the self and the soul ,friend... the self is an illusion of identity , illusion because it is a purely determinate manifestation and has not freedom from the spirit which animates [moves] the flesh into life [soul, 'nephesh' in Hebrew]
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The spirit, then, belongs to God, not to the self , and without the spirit man is dead , has no self ... and the spirit determines what a man does by moving one to act
Thuas as scripture states , all good and evil comes from God's 'mouth', [not from men's selves as in Greek mythology and their inconsistent 'philosophy'!] :-
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God then uses men to express both what He IS and what He IS NOT ... both love and evil acts of the lflesh moved by God... but part of the evil [in fact its greatest manifestation] is to assert that the 'pawn is the king' , that teh imagined self of the flesh is independent of the spirit, independent of God...
Thus we have this discussion , which you could resolve by reading teh scripture, if you believe it more than you believe inconsistent [now-] Western Philosophy on freedom of the self ... one could equally trace the idea back to its pagan roots which would explain the differing from scripture , but its major force on this site is the paganisation of religion by adopting such [easily disproven -see Spinoza for instance, or Saul Smilansky] philosophy ahead of the words of God on the matter ...
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
It has become the vain deceit of many selves to think that they are independently willed [even ignoring their own intelligence causes them to react and thus depend upon what they perceive, let alone what moves men] , so much so that men invent whole false judgment systems which fail utterly to control men , yet men will not see the implication of their failure for the theory of 'free-will'
Yes, well, there is much nonsense spoken by sinners in this world, what matter?
God is spirit , one cannot put spirit on a cross, one cannot kill spirit... Jesus the man died, Jesus the spirit did not, nor could... there is no problem here except the way men think...
The body died, the soul ended with the departure of the spirit to return to God who gave it... the soul is the life in a body animated by spirit, it is the body wi=hich dies, the life simply ends at death, the soul is no more until resurrection [hence the idea that the soul is 'unseen' in death, in 'hell' , the unseen state ...
How can Eternal immortal Deity die? Impossible! Yet, those abusing the Creed made that a stipulation for anyone they wanted out of their face.
That is of course WHY this discussion is VERY relevant here, despite what you say, because some people who do not understand scripture do want to exclude others from this site and make it an enclave of ye-men to their pet beliefs, which however are NOT consistent with ALL God's words, and thus are mistaken beliefs, not fit for use as judgment, whereas theya re repeatedly used here as judgment to exclude others who are interested in discussing and understanding the scripture...
The essential problem then is the closing of minds which have not tested their beliefs against all scripture of God... put such people in charge, as already happened here, and one get unloving injustices by the thousands in place of the love Jesus commands his followers to hev for all men [even their enemies!]
Sure, in fact God created Jesus so that He could come as close to experiencing death as anyone [LOL?]
I guess you meany experiencing dying? ... God surely can know our experience of dying , that is enough , and in fact it is all that we do too... none can experience death, it is nothing , oe knows nothing in death, nothing in 'hell' [so much for those who teach torment in hell, the dead know nothing of death , but experience only apparently immediate resurrection to the new earth ... or to Jesus' return if they were pefected in love in this life ,as saints] :-
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Jesus was both fully man, and fully God.
This I believe too, but this is far from sufficient explanation of what that means to anyone who does not understand how the man can die, but the God live [worse still when one realises that God is timeless, but the Jesus the man was bound in space and time]
I suppose some do think that 'God is dead' [and did little to help men] , some even think that spirit can die [which is a bizarre conflation]... it allcomes down to all-too-understandable misunderstandings, which need patient explaining from the scripture to dispell the false teachings of men [sinners, not saints]
Maybe its the way you tell em' [LOL?]
Jesus the man manifested perfect love which showed men the Father ... So Jesus was God as man [Emanuel] ,that does not stop the man dying [even though it could not be a just death since not only had he not sinned, but by perfecting love he was ready for translation ... he had no need to die at all except to show men the way through death by resurrection.... whereby even sinners can be resurrected and perfect their love in a new life in the new earth, thus Jesus showed the way all men can be brought to perfecetion of love and thus be acceptable for translation to spirit...
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Inan3
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As I have read many of your posts, I am struck with the thought that you seem to do exactly the thing that you accuse everone else of doing. If anyone is NOT LISTENING to the truth, it seems it is you, and if anyone is UNLOVING again, it is you. You are always attacking other Christians for listening to sinners. You are always telling everyone that they are wrong. Who are you to say that? It seems to me, and I say this kindly, you are listening to something or someone but it is not the spirit of truth? Your understanding is all mixed up and confused. I don't expect you to believe everything that main stream christianity believes but you are way out there and I don't mean with God. You are out there all by yourself.
The scripture says there is safety in the multitude of council. I believe you need to get together with other christians who can more perfectly explain the Word of God to you. I believe you are deceived and do not understand the truth. I'm not trying to offend you. I truly think you need help.
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Lisa0315
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You have not answered by question. By what power and what authority do you speak against the doctrines of 2000 years of faithful scholarship by the Body of Christ?
Lisa
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Inan3
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Well I didn't really want to have to say this but it really is NOT all scriptural.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
The above sentence gives no indication of a triune God. It makes it sound like the "one God" is the Father only.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
This one has a couple of issues but I will only address one.
Jesus is not the ONLY Son of God and defeats the purpose of the sufferings of Christ.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the SONS of God, [even] to them that believe on His name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS of God.
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hbr 2:10 For it became Him, for Whom [are] all things, and by Whom [are] all things, in bringing MANY SONS unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hbr 2:11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
Jesus was never made man. The Word was made flesh. Jesus was the man that was made.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
Jesus is not going to judge the living and the dead when He returns. That happens after the millenial reign and the devil is loosed for a season.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Forgiveness does not come from baptism alone. Baptism is just a public acknowledgement of our repentence and belief in Jesus Christ.
It is an old statement of faith and I think it needs to be scripturally updated.
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GenemZ
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There is a problem here because of neglected details.
We are sons of God. True. But, Jesus was the only BEGOTTEN Son of God.
What does that mean?
The Greek reads.."mono genes" This can mean 'uniquely begotten.'
Jesus was born as Adam had been created. All other believers have never been born sons of God. We all must be born AGAIN sons of God.
I tend to get in trouble with certain believers when I attempt to define the humanity side of the hypostatic union. This does not imply Jesus was only man. This only defines the humanity side of Christ.
Hope that helps.
Grace and peace, GeneZ
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pete56
A Beloved Son of God!
Well guys to be perfectly honest arguing over the various creeds is one of the things that keeps Christians divided and has done down through the centuries!
As we are supposed to have the stated aim of Uniting All Christians I think we should stick to the simplest statement of faith we can find and forget about all the historic controversies that were the subject of many conflicts and wars through our chequered history.
How about 'I believe in Jesus Christ, crucified, buried and resurrected!'
After all we are called Christians - Christ Followers.
P
As we are supposed to have the stated aim of Uniting All Christians I think we should stick to the simplest statement of faith we can find and forget about all the historic controversies that were the subject of many conflicts and wars through our chequered history.
How about 'I believe in Jesus Christ, crucified, buried and resurrected!'
After all we are called Christians - Christ Followers.
P
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GenemZ
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I almost like it.... But we need a bit more.
Born of a virgin. Being God and man in one person.
And, the Trinity being co equal in Deity.
If not? You will be uniting more than Christians with Christians. Too simple, and you will have cults potentially joining us at the hip.
Grace and peace, GeneZ
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pete56
A Beloved Son of God!
Yeah all right, I see your point!
But the point is it is the very complexity that gets we Christians into the divisive arguments in the first place!
The fact of the Virgin birth and Trinity are doctrines that create arguments even amongst devout orthodox Christians, so my opinion is to stick to the basics that do Unite us!
As for the cults, well they are here already, as are the atheists and pantheists and occultists and a whole bunch of other 'ists' too!
Under the current regime we have to accept that they are here and reach out to them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified!
P
But the point is it is the very complexity that gets we Christians into the divisive arguments in the first place!
The fact of the Virgin birth and Trinity are doctrines that create arguments even amongst devout orthodox Christians, so my opinion is to stick to the basics that do Unite us!
As for the cults, well they are here already, as are the atheists and pantheists and occultists and a whole bunch of other 'ists' too!
Under the current regime we have to accept that they are here and reach out to them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified!
P
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Absolutely, brother!
The universal christian 'creed' is the Bible and God Himself does authorise ANY private creeds even if they are presumed derived from it ... we know from the division of christianity that it DOESNT yield ONE truth to interpret scripture , and the saints speak AGAINST what men have thus done nevertheless ... time to get back to the original beliefs of the apostles , saints, and prophets of God who believed as ONE with God ... :-
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
We know from division of christianity that most christians must be mistaken in their faith ... simply do what the saint says, REPROVE to ALL the scripture of God ,there is no use following traditions which are divided when it is unclear which IF ANY are true except by USING ALL the scripture of God for what it is meant for, to CORRECT the errors in tradition of men
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Following tradition or the local masses simply isn't the way descroibed in scripture ... people can and do believe whatever suits them, and there are plenty of sinners willing to tell people what they want to hear ,but that is no way to follow Jesus...
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God is the authority whose voice to sinners is the scriptures , so check out ALL the scripture and you will see that God speaks only one way in it and not the many voices of modern christianity
Thus the very division of christianity PROVES it is not ONE truth, so much for traditions, they have simply divided into tens of thousands of different beliefs, none of wehch is any longer what Jesus and the apostles and Paul and the prophets of God say in scripture with ONE VOICE ...
tradition is paganised then and shoud wisely accept reproof to ALL the scriptures of God, for the scripture is the authority of God to sinners, NOT tradition, and the two DIFFER widely , even over what the gospel is and who Jesus is.
Even in Paul's day the teachings were already corrupted by Philosophy and tradition of men ... nearly 2 millenia on and tradition still refuses to be reproved to the scripture into ONE truth of ALL God's word :-
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[see above post too]
One has then to choose between faith in tradition and faith in ALL the scripture of God because they disagree... have faith in God, not in tradition...
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I am not promoting any cause except the scripture of God as the authority for christians, NOT what sinners choose to preach , that is what scripture by Paul teaches [who was sent by God to the gentile masses to explain a little milk of truth to the masses] :-
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I have said that there are three aspects of God in Jesus, the holy spirit of His truth, and the Father , and they agree in one ... there is no need to go any further and make it a doctrine of three-in-one ,when there are many other aspects to god than just three , many sons of God and many spirits of God listed in scripture ...
God never told anyone to count Him beyond ONE , but He has many aspects throuh which He shows Himself to men , just because three of them happen mentioned in one palce or another does not make any reason to think there are only three
For instance three agree as one in heaven and three agree as one on the earth ... that makes six, but there is no magic in counting them since there are more than six aspects of God mentioned in scripture and NO BENEFIT whatever from knowing how many !
Thus use the scripture to see through this mostly harmless idea which some have turned into an unloving weapon of rejection of some christians who see n use in counting aspects of God and leaving most of them out....
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