What would make you disbelieve?

nicknack28 · Dec 28, 2009

What would make you lose your faith? Simple question, really. To have your mind completely closed to change is... well... close-minded, and I doubt too many people would honestly say that nothing could make them believe or disbelieve.

This is out of honest curiosity, not ill intent. So, what say ye?

ebia · Dec 28, 2009

nicknack28 said:
What would make you lose your faith? Simple question, really. To have your mind completely closed to change is... well... close-minded, and I doubt too many people would honestly say that nothing could make them believe or disbelieve.

This is out of honest curiosity, not ill intent. So, what say ye?

I don't know.

ephraimanesti · Dec 28, 2009

nicknack28 said:
What would make you lose your faith? Simple question, really. To have your mind completely closed to change is... well... close-minded, and I doubt too many people would honestly say that nothing could make them believe or disbelieve.

This is out of honest curiosity, not ill intent. So, what say ye?

MY FRIEND,

In all honesty, after thinking about your question for several hours, i think the only thing that could make me disbelieve what i hold to be true now, is God Himself telling me that i am wrong. Should that happen, i think my mind will be more than open enough to make the needed changes in belief to bring my faith into line with God's Truth.

However, given that He has already led me to what i believe now and has opened my heart and mind to receive His Truth regarding His Son Jesus Christ and what is to be believed and acted upon in this regard, i can't see any major changes forthcoming beyond warnings regarding my all-to-human propensity to wander off the path from time to time.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Bryanfromiowa · Dec 28, 2009

Heres the thing about 5 years ago my wife at the time cheated on me it crushed me totaly the divorde that followed was even worse. I became severely clinically depressed, drank a 12 pack a day most days, total financial meltdown walked the edge of being homeless. I tell you that to tell you this i never stopped believing i got mad at god for awhile raged at him in fact but i never for a moment stopped believing.

btw life is much better today (emotionally healthy and sober)

nicknack28 · Dec 28, 2009

Bryanfromiowa said:
Heres the thing about 5 years ago my wife at the time cheated on me it crushed me totaly the divorde that followed was even worse. I became severely clinically depressed, drank a 12 pack a day most days, total financial meltdown walked the edge of being homeless. I tell you that to tell you this i never stopped believing i got mad at god for awhile raged at him in fact but i never for a moment stopped believing.

btw life is much better today (emotionally healthy and sober)

I am also glad to hear things have improved. Can you imagine anything that would make you stop believing in God?

ephraimanesti said:
MY FRIEND,

In all honesty, after thinking about your question for several hours, i think the only thing that could make me disbelieve what i hold to be true now, is God Himself telling me that i am wrong. Should that happen, i think my mind will be more than open enough to make the needed changes in belief to bring my faith into line with God's Truth.

However, given that He has already led me to what i believe now and has opened my heart and mind to receive His Truth regarding His Son Jesus Christ and what is to be believed and acted upon in this regard, i can't see any major changes forthcoming beyond warnings regarding my all-to-human propensity to wander off the path from time to time.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Thank you for your reflection. You have shared with me what would make you believe your faith is misguided in some way. You've shared that perhaps only God himself telling you directly could do this.

I'd only like to push this a little further (for this was my question's original intent): what would make you disbelieve in God?

Bryanfromiowa · Dec 28, 2009

I am also glad to hear things have improved. Can you imagine anything that would make you stop believing in God?

After going through all that no not really

ephraimanesti · Dec 28, 2009

nicknack28 said:
I'd only like to push this a little further (for this was my question's original intent): what would make you disbelieve in God?

MY DEAR FRIEND,

i can conceive of nothing which could cause me to disbelieve in God. My belief in God is not based on the Bible or the testimonies of others or reasoning towards the end of belief. These things convinced me, back in a day, that there was a possibility that a God existed, but it is the actual meeting of God "face to face" so to speak, and the becoming aware of His having taken up residence in one's heart and control of one's life, that engenders true belief in His existence.

Once that has occurred and a relationship developed, there is no longer any room for doubt or, more to the point, any way that glorious experience can be denied and disbelief ensue. In this sense, one can no more go from belief to disbelief than a pickle can return to being a cucumber.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

98cwitr · Dec 28, 2009

the body of Christ is found and the DNA matches the Shroud of Turin...that would probably do it for me. Sadly, my seemingly surmounted coincidences cease to be just that...highly improbable series of coincidences linked together by my consciousness to try and make sense of the world and my life. Already thought that through quite thoroughly in my book though, so God is..."I Am"

drich0150 · Dec 28, 2009

I have been thinking about your original question and how it was presented, and I don't understand what is wrong with the Idea of being closed to outside influences in ones faith.

True faith is not an exercise in academics so one don't have to constantly stay updated on the new way of thinking or has to be aware of new research that has made old theories obsolete. Nor is it a philosophy that changes from generation to generation.

Faith is also not something to barter with. Like those who live a good life believe and give thanks to God because of what they have been given, but when the hedge around their lives has been removed so goes their Faith.

At the same time faith should not be built on the academics of religion either. Faith should be a belief centered around a personal experience that one shares with God. If this shared experience can be bought with, persuasive reasoning, hardship or reward. Then I would say what you have is a strongly held belief, not a true faith.

Don't get me wrong strongly held beliefs can be quite hard to pry away from someone, but in the end there will always be a price in which that belief can be bought.

That's why "True Faith" Or a true Love for God would Take the words of God himself to Break. (I believe as Ephraim does) Because Faith like love is not dependent or supported by anything other than the two who love each other.

So in this manner to say one's Love for God is closed to all other things or "change," to me it is not a bad thing.

If you had, or have a great relationship with your biological father, would you sell that relationship for any type of personal or financial gain? Would you sell it for intellectual stimulation or perhaps a better station in life? What would it cost for you to completely break ties with your father? If everything is as you would want or wanted it to be with him, could one say that your mind would be closed to selling your relationship with your Father?

With this in mind, explain to me how it would be a bad thing to close one's mind to selling something that one loves so much?

Now that i would answer your question I have another one for you.

What would it take for you to have faith in God? Not to strongly believe, but to truly have faith? or would you mind be closed to such a thing?

nicknack28 · Dec 29, 2009

drich0150 said:
At the same time faith should not be built on the academics of religion either. Faith should be a belief centered around a personal experience that one shares with God. If this shared experience can be bought with, persuasive reasoning, hardship or reward. Then I would say what you have is a strongly held belief, not a true faith.

Don't get me wrong strongly held beliefs can be quite hard to pry away from someone, but in the end there will always be a price in which that belief can be bought.

My first response is that I do not share your view that there is a distinction between "strongly held beliefs" and "true faith" (quotation marks not for sarcasm). I would argue that 100% unshakable faith does not exist but that, as you said, all belief has a price at which it can be bought. Such could exist if we chose what we believe in these kinds of matters but we don't -- we simply do believe or we don't. It's comparable to not being able to chose if we love someone -- we simply do love or we don't.

In light of that, I can appreciate when somebody can recognize the limits of their belief (that it can be bought, regardless how high the price) and not aspire to a closed mind. That is where the slight negative implication comes from.

drich0150 said:
If you had, or have a great relationship with your biological father, would you sell that relationship for any type of personal or financial gain? Would you sell it for intellectual stimulation or perhaps a better station in life? What would it cost for you to completely break ties with your father? If everything is as you would want or wanted it to be with him, could one say that your mind would be closed to selling your relationship with your Father?

I'm not sure why you used such negative sounding examples of "selling" something. I did not mean to imply that people who lose their faith are doing so for selfish reasons. These examples are of someone selling something for some personal gain whereas I simply meant someone losing their faith. This has nothing to do with personal gain.

drich0150 said:
With this in mind, explain to me how it would be a bad thing to close one's mind to selling something that one loves so much?

All I can say is that this is misconstruing my question. The previous statements in my post explain my position and intent in the question.

Considering my position on "true faith" and "very strong belief" I cannot answer your question as to what would make me have true faith in God. I can happily, however, tell you what would make me believe very strongly in him. I will do so if you're still interested.

If it makes it more clear as it may have with others I'll restate the question differently for your consideration: what would make you disbelief in God? You have answered what would make your love for God change but not what would make your belief in him change. I apologize as I have with others if my original question was unclear.

katautumn · Dec 29, 2009

Nicknack, I noticed you have the atheist icon. In your original post you accused those who cannot imagine something causing them to disbelieve in God of being closed-minded. An atheist says, vehemently, there is no God. Period. End of discussion. An agnostic person says God's existence is unknowable, possible. Would stating, emphatically, there is no God also be closed-minded? Being open to the possibility, if strong evidence were to present itself, doesn't seem to make someone wholeheartedly an atheist.

Even at the times in which I mocked God and His followers I still had faith that maybe, just maybe, something, someone bigger than I am was out there in the universe. I have already been through serious things in my life that shook my faith, caused me to lose it. For me it was being betrayed by fellow believers. So, as you can see, my life came full circle. I had faith, lost it, but God was gracious enough to see fit to never leave my side. He was there all along, even when I wasn't.

nicknack28 · Dec 29, 2009

Kat, I understand how you would be frustrated with me if my views were as you suspect. Declaring that there is no god would indeed also be close-minded. I would not declare such. All I can say is that I have no belief in a god. I am open to the possibility of there being one, I just haven't been convinced that there is one.

My icon is set to atheist because at least according to most atheists "lack of belief" is the only thing atheism concerns. Most (I would propose, if they came to their views with good thought) would not declare that there is no god. Instead all they would claim is that they do not have a belief in one. In fact, nearly every atheist I've ever met or read the statements of have said that they'd be open to the existence of a god if there was sufficient evidence for one. Only very few that I've ever encountered have actually denied the possibility of a god, and much less done so vehemently.

I say "at least according to most atheists" because there are often very large and numerable disagreements between theists, atheists, and agnostics about what each of these terms actually mean. I could argue that an agnostic only claims to have no knowledge of whether a god exists or not, making it possible to be both an atheist and an agnostic, but none of the semantics matter here. I'd simply like to assure you that I would not make a close-minded claim like that in your example and that I am open to the possibility of a god. I think if you ask other atheists about such you will get similar responses too. There are some good topics around the forum's Outreach section that discuss this.

Supreme · Dec 29, 2009

I'd need a mixture of concrete scientific and historical evidence that dispproved Jesus and His life as describes in the Gospels, and the abscence of beautiful black women to declare to myself that God doesn't exist.

acorn_777 · Dec 29, 2009

nicknack28 said:
What would make you lose your faith? Simple question, really. To have your mind completely closed to change is... well... close-minded, and I doubt too many people would honestly say that nothing could make them believe or disbelieve.

This is out of honest curiosity, not ill intent. So, what say ye?

What would make you believe? To what advantage do I have if I were to disbelieve, than to believe?

nicknack28 · Dec 29, 2009

acorn_777 said:
What would make you believe? To what advantage do I have if I were to disbelieve, than to believe?

First I'd say that there would be a difference between what is needed for me to believe in a god and what is needed for me to believe in the Christian god. More evidence would be needed for me to believe in the Christian god, obviously, than simply any god whatsoever.

I have not yet become convinced that faith is a valuable thing (at least when it comes to important subjects) and so I must repeat the very stereotypical atheist response: evidence.

This could come in any form imaginable, really. Anything that is persuasive evidence for the supernatural, a personal god, an impersonal god, etc. I took a good length of time thinking of a lengthier or more complete answer to this question but it can honestly be reduced to this. I've seen others mention things like the following as mere examples: phenomena that is universally agreed upon as supernatural, regularly answered prayers (that can be observed to be so), scientific knowledge being present in any holy books that unquestionably could not have been known to authors. I stress again though that these are mere examples. Anything that makes a very strong evidenced case for a god would make me believe. What constitutes as evidence is another matter entirely (it would probably be easier to define what doesn't constitute as evidence) but most will probably understand my meaning as it stands.

I understand that the requirement of evidence is seen as missing the entire point of faith, but in order to embrace faith I first need to be convinced that it is necessary or desirable. I already said this but I'm simply repeating.

As for your second question I can't say that there is any advantage in disbelief. If you specified what sort of advantage then perhaps I can answer better.

98cwitr · Dec 29, 2009

^^^Hypothetically speaking...let's say all those who you believed to be Christian...or at least the majority...suddenly disappeared without a trace, leaving all their possessions behind...millions of people are gone and it's all over the news...world wide event...and all had been known as Christians. Would you believe then?

nicknack28 · Dec 29, 2009

Yes that would be extremely persuasive in convincing me not only of a god but of the Christian god. I would probably then commence dreading my oncoming damnation.

JasperJackson · Dec 29, 2009

nicknack,

The value of faith is in what we receive from it, namely eternal life in Heaven. Some people may talk about other benefits of having faith (e.g. happier, better relationships, etc.) but really these are just side effects of the assurance of their salvation. Have you heard of Pascal's Wager? The way it goes is that you believe in God and all He's done for you and he's real then you stand to benefit greatly (eternity in heaven), but if he's not real then there's no loss. On the other hand if you don't believe in God and he doesn't exist then again, no loss. But if you don't believe in him and he does exist then you suffer a great loss (eternity in hell). Therefore it's better to just choose to believe, right? Well, I, like you, can't just choose to believe. I need evidence.
And I think even the Bible itself agrees that people need evidence to have faith. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." So how can we be certain about God even though we do not see him? Jesus. But we need evidence for Jesus right? Well, Jesus was a historical person. There is evidence for his life, death and resurrection. If you want a list of resources I will PM them to you.

drich0150 · Dec 29, 2009

what would make you disbelief in God? You have answered what would make your love for God change but not what would make your belief in him change.

your supposing that in all cases Belief is based on some academic, philosophical or intellectual endeavor that results in a relationship with God. If that is the case then it is logical to believe that if the basis of one belief is changed or has been found to be in error, then the belief itself will also change unless one is closed to Change in what He or she believes. (closed minds)

What I was trying to illustrate was that not all Belief is based on proof, or personal gain/benefit. In fact true Christianity is based on love. we choose or want to love first, then we come to believe. that Why it has been said a few times now that it would take the word of God himself to change what it is we believe about Him. Because a love Backed system of Belief will not be influenced by the tides of change.

"What ever thy lot, thou hast taught me to say: "It is well.. With My Soul."

I can happily, however, tell you what would make me believe very strongly in him. I will do so if you're still interested.

Please.

Hammster · Dec 29, 2009

nicknack28 said:
What would make you lose your faith? Simple question, really. To have your mind completely closed to change is... well... close-minded, and I doubt too many people would honestly say that nothing could make them believe or disbelieve.

This is out of honest curiosity, not ill intent. So, what say ye?

I will agree with Paul here:

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 1 Corinthians 15:13-19

What would make you disbelieve?

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