What would it take to trust Christ?

[Salubri]

Because God chose the jews to be His witness to the world and if you study any jewish history and compare it to the bible it will astound you. Even their existance today is astounding to even many secular writers - they defy reason and i believe what the bible says concering them , that He will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them - thats the abrahamic covenant and i believe it, i also believe that is why this country has been so blessed - look at the 6 day war sometime when all the arab countries came against them - amazing ... this another thing i could go on and on about - anyway He also came there Because of the prophecies in the OT that had been given to Gods chosen prophets , and they were given so it would be known who the messiah was . It was even prophecied that they would reject their messiah.But this was done for the purpose of the rest of the world so they would be grafted into salvation . Its not over yet .

That's because back in the day you were ealing with VERY primitve superstitious people, many of who wanted to exploit this and get power. And if that IS all God did...well...he has a pretty bad systemof managing his creations.

Then again, see my post in "Does God want people to go to Hell" to understand my view point in all of this.

 

[Angel4Truth]

That's because back in the day you were ealing with VERY primitve superstitious people, many of who wanted to exploit this and get power. And if that IS all God did...well...he has a pretty bad systemof managing his creations.

Then again, see my post in "Does God want people to go to Hell" to understand my view point in all of this.

Um the 6 day war was in 1967 , thats hardly primitive . Please study some jewish history .

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste A4T,

thank you for the post.

How do you feel about what I posted above?

which particular bit? you've posted quite a few replies to this thread

 

[Salubri]

Please study some jewish history .

No thank you, I have enough to study as it is, I don;t need any more things to study. Then again you are slighty taking what I said out of context.

What I meant was more along the lines of this quote from Jesus Christ Superstar "Israel in 4 B.C had no mass comunication." Etc etc

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste A4T,

thank you for the post.



which particular bit? you've posted quite a few replies to this thread

bumpity bump, bump..

 

[Angel4Truth]

Namaste A4T,

thank you for the post.



which particular bit? you've posted quite a few replies to this thread

post #78 since you were asking about evidence earlier . Sorry

 

[Spinrad]

What would it take to trust Christ for all of you who are not believers?

I know, I am late in this thread. Nevertheless, what kind of trust are we talking about?

 

[Angel4Truth]

No thank you, I have enough to study as it is, I don;t need any more things to study. Then again you are slighty taking what I said out of context.

What I meant was more along the lines of this quote from Jesus Christ Superstar "Israel in 4 B.C had no mass comunication." Etc etc

Actually my post was about prophecies in the bible dealing with the jewish people that lead all the way to being fulfilled in this century hardly being ancient , as far as "Jesus christ superstar" i have no clue what your talking about . Maybe you misunderstood the context of what I was refering to.

 

[Salubri]

"Jesus christ superstar" i have no clue what your talking about

You don't know what jesus Christ superstar is?

Only one of the best musicals around.

Maybe you misunderstood the context of what I was refering to.

Orperhaps you are missunderstandingme in returnso we are all getting really confused.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I know, I am late in this thread. Nevertheless, what kind of trust are we talking about?

Believing that Christ died for your sins and rose again from the dead and exchanging your will for His will .

 

[Spinrad]

Believing that Christ died for your sins and rose again from the dead and exchanging your will for His will .

I would have to believe in God, sin, Jesus, resurrection and all the things that go with it. Once those things were established I could make a decision about trusting Jesus.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Angel,

thank you for the post.

post #78 since you were asking about evidence earlier . Sorry

hmm... ok... i've read post #78. the salient issue regarding this post is this sentence:

"Let me give you an example from my own personal life "

this, then, means that what you are providing is anecdotal, subjective evidence. it is evidence, to be sure. it is not, however, the type of evidence which i indicated would be required for me to assent to your truth propositions.

in post #73, i posted the bit about intersubjective evidence and the three various ways that term is understood. i would be willing to take any of the three... but, usually, we mean the first defintion in this usage.

so... do you have some of that sittin' around somewhere?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Actually since the other people involved in my example agreed on the nature of the evidence , it is not subjective only , but then becomes objective , because we have 4 people with the same conclusion.

The example coming from something in my personal life , has nothing to do with it being objective or subjective in itself .

 

[DrFate]

I dont believe Christ was a divine being, even when I was Christian, I didnt believe in his divinity.

But if Christ is really a divine figgure, he would have to come to me personally and tell me what he wanted.

Um Why? Why would a person such as the LIon of Judah, King of Israel, Wonderful Concilor, bother with you specifically?

 

[DrFate]

Thallus Serapion and Tacitus all testify that someone called Christ lived in palestine, caused a stir and died under Pontious Pilate. I have heard several times that there are more historical sources to prove Christs existence than Julius Caesars existence, but I have never been able to verify this. Anyway, IMHO faith is about more than believing in verifyable facts.

Christ is a title. There were several Christs. Ceasar was a Christ. I think you misquoted Thallus Serapion and Tacitus .

 

[DrFate]

What would it take to trust Christ for all of you who are not believers?

I will assume that you mean the Christ called Jesus of Nazareth.
A verifiable resume would help.
How about a genealogy that was consistent and contained the requisite number of generations? , You know 14 not 13.
How about some of the writings of this Rabbi of a literate people?
How about some physical proof of his existence?
First, we would have to prove that the God of the Hebrews existed.
Second, we would have to prove that He wanted a human sacrifice.
Third, we would have to prove that this Christ was fully compliant with the Torah.

That is a start. I trust YHVH. YHVH is my rock and my redeemer. He leads me into paths of holiness. YHVH is my anointed one, my Christ.
I believe that the post risen Jesus is a spiritual force YHVH uses to interact with Humanity. I trust YHVH.

 

[vajradhara]

Actually since the other people involved in my example agreed on the nature of the evidence , it is not subjective only , but then becomes objective , because we have 4 people with the same conclusion.

not quite.

it then becomes "intersubjective" evidence... of exactly the type that i'm asking for.

so.. do you have some evidence that we can agree on?

The example coming from something in my personal life , has nothing to do with it being objective or subjective in itself .

correct.. it's anecdotal evidence at that point.

i suppose that i'm confused... you're saying that your evidence for God is that you didn't buy a home that flooded when a large storm flooded all the homes in the neighborhood...

 

[Angel4Truth]

No , because through a message board , and without knowing anything about you , there would be no way to determine what you would consider objective enough evidence nor would I wish to be a provider to you , because it needs to come from God to you to be valid . I cannot make you experience what I experience , I can only tell you about it , so we are already at stalemate as far as my experience being objective because unless you experienced it as well , its not objective for you .

To your second question , that is not what I said , I said it is evidence of God showing himself because God first spoke to us about buying it . Please read it again. He spoke then He validated what was heard in a way that none of the parties could control and worked out perfectly even when it seemed a disaster on the surface .

 

[vajradhara]

b'shalom Angel,

thank you for the post.

No , because through a message board , and without knowing anything about you , there would be no way to determine what you would consider objective enough evidence nor would I wish to be a provider to you , because it needs to come from God to you to be valid .

perhaps you misunderstand. intersubjective evidence is not objective evidenence in the normal sense of the word. an example of intersubjective evidence could be something like, do you agree that water is composed of H2O? this is something that we can both agree upon and then proceed.

if, however, as you indicate that these things come from God, i am a bit unclear as to the point of your asking what it would take to trust Jesus.

I cannot make you experience what I experience , I can only tell you about it , so we are already at stalemate as far as my experience being objective because unless you experienced it as well , its not objective for you .

i do not think these words mean what you think they mean. clearly, i'm not talking about you somehow telepathically implanting your experience into my mind stream.

i'm talking about things that we each, individually experience, yet share a common experience of. fire is hot, for instance. i don't need to have your experience in learning that fire is hot for me to have the same learning experience. as such, hot as a quality of fire is intersubjective.

To your second question , that is not what I said , I said it is evidence of God showing himself because God first spoke to us about buying it . Please read it again.

i read it and your words are clear and unequivocal.

ok.. so, God spoke to you. could other beings hear those words or were they inside your head? hopefully, you are aware of the issue that this brings to the discussion. how can anybody validate what anybody else hears in their mind? there are plenty of folks running around thinking that God talks to them.. heck, sometimes God even appears in burnt Toast and grilled cheese sandwiches.. so i suppose that it is not outside the realm of possiblility that God spoke, personally, to you.

leaving that aside for a moment... how are able to distinguish between Gods voice and the other voices in your head?

He spoke then He validated what was heard in a way that none of the parties could control and worked out perfectly even when it seemed a disaster on the surface .

which could simply mean that the relvant parties powers of perception are seriously impaired, couldn't it? perfect? that's a strange word for humans to use.. especially when it comes to something like buying material things. eh.. but if it works for you.. who am i to complain?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Can you agree that we cannot cause 13 plus inches of rain to fall in less than a few hours?

Can you agree that we cannot control the actions of a party to when and how they will do an apraisal?

Can you agree that we cannot control a home being flooded or even forsee that it would which is why we would NOT have elected to get flood insurance , because we saw no good reason for a home that was NOT in a flood zone to ever be flooded ?

Can you agree that since we were held up by a bad apraisal , home didnt close on time , so the owner moved out anyway trusting that God had spoke to Him and then later finds it was a complete miracle that all his personal things were removed just prior to the home being flooded ?

Those are all things we could not control , so they are most definately objective .