What would it take for unity?

[Hawkiz]

An open question for Presbyterians:

(Full disclosure first, I am a Catholic, married to a Presbyterian ministers (PCA) daughter, and am not looking to stir up controversy ((I promise!)), but am seeking ways to draw our faith practices closer together.)

What would it take for Catholics and Presbyterians to grow closer in faith practice?

What are the things that 'Rome' would have to soften/drop?
Would 'Rome' have to offer the first olive branch? What could the Catholic Church do or say that might make you listen? What would the leaders of the Presbyterian Church need to do or say?

Specifically I am seeking things that the members of each Church might be able to do or say to bring us together as one flock, with One Shephard.

I promise I will not use this forum to 'fight back' on any issue; but we need to better understand where we differ if we are ever to hope to unify, which is why I ask. I don't want to fight here over who is 'right' or who is 'wrong', but I do want to hear what is holding us back from being together under Christ...fully.

I have a very clear understanding of the Catholic positions, and I will openly admit that we Catholics tend to be a hard-line stubborn bunch, and we will have to open our eyes, ears and hearts if we ever wish to become one Church again.

I also have a young but growing knowledge of what the PCA teaches, and quite frankly, I see SO many similarities, and these similar beliefs are what has drawn me to ask this question to you.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies, and I will further promise to not take any lists of our differences as an attack, but as a chance for you to tell a Catholic what you souls would need to grow our respective flocks closer together.

Peace in Christ


(I make all those promises knowing full well that it is solely on me to hold to them within the Presbyterian forum, so I say again that I am not posting here to teach or attempt to convert, but only to ask questions and listen)

Thank you!

 

[HeraldOfTheHolyOne]

Rome would have to drop a huge portion of its Councils, declare them heresy (which would consequently invalidate the infallibility of the church and Pope) and adopt biblical & Reformed theology (esp. in the realm of soteriology). Until that day, Presbyterians who believe the Westminster Standards to be a summation of the Bible's teachings will consider the church of Rome to be a false church that we can have no spiritual fellowship with.

Rome differs with Presbyterians in a lot of ways.
On Authority, the conservative Presbyterians see God's Word alone as the authority for faith, practice, and all of life. The RCC has Scripture and elevated tradition to equal authority with it. Presbyterians believe that the Scriptures were affirmed by the Church and that the Church must ever be in submission to God's Word. The RCC believes that the Scriptures were determined by the church, and that the church has authority over determining what it teaches.

Presbyterians reject the apocryphal writings, the RCC embraces them as inspired.

On Salvation, Presbyterians believe in monergistic regeneration by the Holy Spirit that is irresistible, bringing a sinner, who cannot do anything but freely sin in their state of total depravity, to spiritual life leading to faith (which alone is the instrument of justification [which is a judicial decree where God declares a sinner righteous on account of Christ's righteousness and where the penalty for sin has been paid by Christ]) for justification by His grace alone, which neither it nor the salvation of a soul can be forfeited nor lost in any way. Salvation is accomplished entirely by God in His predestining sinners to salvation, in Christ's efficacious and definite atonement, and by the Spirit's application of salvation to the believer. Rome has basically no agreement whatsoever on these issues which are essential to the true Gospel.

Presbyterians believe that spiritual devotion must be reserved for God alone. Rome prays to saints. Presbyterians do not see any biblical warrant for the practice. In other words, practices like the rosary cannot be held by Reformed Christians with good conscience because God nowhere commands the use of the rosary in His Word.

The sacrament of baptism, for Presbyterians, is the sign and seal of the righteousness of faith signifying spiritual realities, whereby a person is admitted into the visible kingdom of God (the Church). Baptism does not regenerate the soul according to Presbyterian belief. In the RCC's dogma, it does.

Presbyterians reject the doctrine of transubstantiation. Rome embraces it.

In other words, there are huge swathes of key doctrinal issues that would have to be changed. Rome would either have to become Reformed, or Presbyterians would have to abandon Reformed teaching and join the Roman Church. I really can't envision these churches budging on such central issues without becoming non-Presbyterian and non-Roman Catholic.

 

[AMR]

The differences between the two groups are immiscible.

Over thirty years ago, as a former Roman Catholic, I used to believe:
Creation "participates in Being," which is God. Grace perfects nature. Creation per se is in need of grace.

Since then, I believe:
Humans are only analogues to God. Grace renews fallen nature. Creation per se is good and was corrupted only by sin.

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Authority means God is the source through the church by her living tradition and Scripture.

Since then, I believe:
God is the source through the Scripture to the church so that the Scripture is read in and with the church but it alone is the norm for life and doctrine.

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Hermeneutically, Scripture is old law (Moses) and new law (Christ).

Since then, I believe:
All Scripture contains law ("do") and gospel ("done"). I express the law-gospel dichotomy in the covenants of works (law) and grace (gospel).

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Sin is a fall from original grace and the result of the concupiscence natural to creatures. Sin created the need for more grace. The effects of sin do not prevent our cooperation with grace toward final justification.

Since then, I believe:
Sin is a free, unnatural act of willful disobedience to God's law. Sin results in depravity and inability to cooperate with grace.

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Salvation is a grace given through the church enabling us to overcoming finitude and consequent sin.

Since then, I believe:
Salvation is deliverance from sin, death, and the devil.

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Condign merit is wrought within sinners by the Spirit and congruent merit is imputed graciously to sinners in view of their best efforts.

Since then, I believe:
The condign merit of Christ's obedience is imputed to sinners who have no intrinsic merits. There is no congruent merit.

Over thirty years ago, I used to believe:
Grace is a gift from the Holy Spirit, by which "he shares his divine life," that is infused into sinners sanctifying them.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Affirmation of sola fide would be a huge step.

I believe that Luther was prepared to concede everything else to Rome if only Rome would affirm sola fide.

 

[tulipbee]

Rome would have to drop a huge portion of its Councils, declare them heresy (which would consequently invalidate the infallibility of the church and Pope) and adopt biblical & Reformed theology (esp. in the realm of soteriology). Until that day, Presbyterians who believe the Westminster Standards to be a summation of the Bible's teachings will consider the church of Rome to be a false church that we can have no spiritual fellowship with.

In what way are the strict Westminister confession followers not to have fellowship with the Catholic church?

 

[skypair]

(Full disclosure first, I am a Catholic, married to a Presbyterian ministers (PCA) daughter, and am not looking to stir up controversy ((I promise!)), but am seeking ways to draw our faith practices closer together.)

What would it take for Catholics and Presbyterians to grow closer in faith practice?

It would take both of you confessing that you are WRONG! Just throw away your confessions, your papal bulls, etc. Know why? It's the same problem as happened in 1Cor 1:10-23. What happened there was that the Corinthians were following the one who baptized them — not Jesus Christ! Today, members of both those churches are disciples of their respective churches and their doctrines — and not of Jesus!

Look what Paul said, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you [if you were baptized by Paul]? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" No, they weren't! But Presbies were baptized in the name of Presbyterianism and Catholics in the name of Catholicism — weren't they?!

So the 2 will never be united until they are saved in the name of Jesus Christ (through repentance to God praying to Him in the name of Jesus Christ for salvation). Then, as born again children (Mt 18:3), they must begin all over again receiving the milk of the word of God with one Spirit!

What you have until you do that is 2 denominations built on the teachings of men — just like at Corinth. They read the Bible without the understanding of the Spirit — of the Almighty, Job 32:8. They played the "telephone game" with the word of God!

skypair

 

[AMR]

It would take both of you confessing that you are WRONG! Just throw away your confessions

I see you are an infrequent poster and may not be aware that this particular forum related to Presbyterianism prohibits debating and/or advocating positions contrary to its confessional basis. Please see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7423440/

Thank you.

 

[skypair]

I see you are an infrequent poster and may not be aware that this particular forum related to Presbyterianism prohibits debating and/or advocating positions contrary to its confessional basis. Please see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7423440/

Sorry, but the question was asked in a very honest and open manner so if the truth was meant to be evoked, well .. there it is.

skypair

 

[BryanW92]

What would it take for Catholics and Presbyterians to grow closer in faith practice?

Closer in faith, or closer in practice? There is a difference.

We already are close in faith because we place our faith in Jesus Christ.

But, in practice, we are literally worlds apart.

Start with the sacrament of penance. Confessing sins to a human and expecting absolution from him is the original basis for Protestantism. We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Then, we have the "veneration" of Mary and the Saints, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, and purgatory.

The exclusion of Protestants from the Eucharist is a problem.

Finally, there is the problem of Church Tradition being more important than Scripture and the rest of the Five Solas. This is HUGE for us, and an obstacle that Rome would never accept.

 

[BryanW92]

But Presbies were baptized in the name of Presbyterianism and Catholics in the name of Catholicism — weren't they?!

I was baptized in the Methodist church, but not in the name of Methodism. In fact, the Baptists are the only ones I know who would say that my baptism is wrong and that I would need to do it again in the "proper Baptist way".

I always thought that a Confession was a bad idea too, until I started looking at the PCA. I got a copy of the Westminster Confession and found that every word in it is supported by scripture with full proof texts provided.

 

[AMR]

I see you are an infrequent poster and may not be aware that this particular forum related to Presbyterianism prohibits debating and/or advocating positions contrary to its confessional basis. Please see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7423440/

Thank you.

Sorry, but the question was asked in a very honest and open manner so if the truth was meant to be evoked, well .. there it is.

skypair

You are welcome to participate in this safe-haven congregation forum as long as you follow the rules. If you wish to disagree and/or debate you are free to post in the following forum (or one of its sub-forums) where such disagreement is permitted:

http://www.christianforums.com/f79/

Thank you.

 

[Basil the Great]

Closer in faith, or closer in practice? There is a difference.

We already are close in faith because we place our faith in Jesus Christ.

But, in practice, we are literally worlds apart.

Start with the sacrament of penance. Confessing sins to a human and expecting absolution from him is the original basis for Protestantism. We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Then, we have the "veneration" of Mary and the Saints, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, and purgatory.

The exclusion of Protestants from the Eucharist is a problem.

Finally, there is the problem of Church Tradition being more important than Scripture and the rest of the Five Solas. This is HUGE for us, and an obstacle that Rome would never accept.

I appreciate the question raised by the OP and I personally believe that the day is coming when the Christian faith will come under severe attack by an ever growing number of Atheists and Agnostics. I have no easy answer here, but I hope we all can find some way for Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox to draw closer together. The day may come in 50 or 100 years where severe persecution of Christians could well effectively force the different groups to accept each other more fully than they do now.

 

[AMR]

...but I hope we all can find some way for Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox to draw closer together.

The doctrinal distinctions between the groups listed are immiscible, so I doubt such a hope would be possible.

 

[BryanW92]

I appreciate the question raised by the OP and I personally believe that the day is coming when the Christian faith will come under severe attack by an ever growing number of Atheists and Agnostics. I have no easy answer here, but I hope we all can find some way for Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox to draw closer together. The day may come in 50 or 100 years where severe persecution of Christians could well effectively force the different groups to accept each other more fully than they do now.

Most western Christians will fold up their faith like a tent and put it away in the face of any adversity, long before there is actual persecution. Look at how we bend to the ACLU and FFRF every single time they threaten a lawsuit over something as small as a child singing a hymn at a school talent show.

For the remnant who really stick to their guns (whether literally or figuratively) and keep the faith, some will come together (as we do now in ecumenical, laity-led movements like Via de Cristo, Curcillo, and Walk to Emmaus) and some will point fingers at the "others who betrayed the faith" (and the mode of alleged betrayal will vary for each group of "others").

 

[Hawkiz]

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

It was not and is not my intention to spark debate, and I fear that we are dangerously close...

As such, I am requesting this thread be closed within this sub forum.

I pray that we will all seek to unite as one flock with the One Shepherd.

Peace in Christ