What would have happened to Adam and Eve and Cain after death?

[Tigger Boy]

Again, there is no recent hermeneutical evidence or scholarly evidence to change the comma. I’m sorry that it doesn’t agree with your doctrine but you can’t use the “it shouldn’t be there” error to justify it.

I have presented to you evidence in the words of Christ, as recorded in Jh. 20:17, that Christ did not go to heaven/paradise the day of His death, but two days latter. I have also shared with you in my first post (Ezekiel 18:20, and Rev. 16:3) which states that souls die, which I assume you don't believe. (John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29,34; Job 17:13) that the saved do not go to heaven when they die, nor the lost to hell, which i assume you believe. And Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalms 115:17) that the dead know nothing, nor do they praise the Lord. All of these Biblical texts and others I have not mentioned prove that the thief could not have gone to paradise along with Christ the day Christ was crucified.

You need not apologize for not agreeing with me, as you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. But certainly my previous posts show that I have given Biblical support for why the comma in Lk.23:43, has been placed in the wrong place, since it contradicts what the Bible clearly teaches on death. So no, I haven't relied on "it shouldn't be there to justify it

 

[Hentenza]

I have presented to you evidence in the words of Christ, as recorded in Jh. 20:17, that Christ did not go to heaven/paradise the day of His death, but two days latter. I have also shared with you in my first post (Ezekiel 18:20, and Rev. 16:3) which states that souls die, which I assume you don't believe. (John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29,34; Job 17:13) that the saved do not go to heaven when they die, nor the lost to hell, which i assume you believe. And Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalms 115:17) that the dead know nothing, nor do they praise the Lord. All of these Biblical texts and others I have not mentioned prove that the thief could not have gone to paradise along with Christ the day Christ was crucified.

You need not apologize for not agreeing with me, as you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. But certainly my previous posts show that I have given Biblical support for why the comma in Lk.23:43, has been placed in the wrong place, since it contradicts what the Bible clearly teaches on death. So no, I haven't relied on "it shouldn't be there to justify it

It is no difference than the poor man in Abraham bosom depicted in Luke 16. Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17. In fact, Paul and Jesus call the third heaven paradise.

Ezekiel 18:20 teaches that the soul that sins will die which they will indeed at the end of times. The soul of the sinner will go to hades just like the soul of the rich man in Luke 16 did. Rev. 20 describes how hades and death will be thrown in the lake of fire at the end of times (Rev. 20:14).

Rev. 16:3, John 5:28-29, has no teaching about the soul.

Acts 2:29 only talks about David’s grave not about his soul.

Acts 2:34 is a quote from Psalm 110:1 which is a prophesy about the messiah. Also read, Luke 20:23 and Heb. 1:13.

Job 17:13 Sheol and Hades are the same place. This is where the rich man in Luke 16 is.

ECC. 9: 5-6,10. The first two verses refer to the body not the soul. Verse 10 is also not talking about the soul otherwise it would be in tension with Luke 16 where the rich man was talking and needed water. When an interpretation causes tension between parts of scripture then is best to examine one’s interpretation rather than force an interpretation.

Psalm 115:17 the dead bodies do not praise the Lord but the souls do including the souls of the martyrs (Rev. 6:9).

I have now addressed every verse that you have posted and added a couple of my own.

Be blessed.

 

[Tigger Boy]

It is no difference than the poor man in Abraham bosom depicted in Luke 16. Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17. In fact, Paul and Jesus call the third heaven paradise.

Ezekiel 18:20 teaches that the soul that sins will die which they will indeed at the end of times. The soul of the sinner will go to hades just like the soul of the rich man in Luke 16 did. Rev. 20 describes how hades and death will be thrown in the lake of fire at the end of times (Rev. 20:14).

Rev. 16:3, John 5:28-29, has no teaching about the soul.

Acts 2:29 only talks about David’s grave not about his soul.

Acts 2:34 is a quote from Psalm 110:1 which is a prophesy about the messiah. Also read, Luke 20:23 and Heb. 1:13.

Job 17:13 Sheol and Hades are the same place. This is where the rich man in Luke 16 is.

ECC. 9: 5-6,10. The first two verses refer to the body not the soul. Verse 10 is also not talking about the soul otherwise it would be in tension with Luke 16 where the rich man was talking and needed water. When an interpretation causes tension between parts of scripture then is best to examine one’s interpretation rather than force an interpretation.

Psalm 115:17 the dead bodies do not praise the Lord but the souls do including the souls of the martyrs (Rev. 6:9).

I have now addressed every verse that you have posted and added a couple of my own.

Be blessed.

Yes indeed both Paul and Jesus called the third heaven paradise because it’s farther out, than the first heaven in which birds and plans fly and the law of gravity is in play. The second is where the planets are suspended beyond the laws of gravity. The third heaven is beyond all that which we can’t see into and where God and angels reside and New Jerusalem. Neither you or I have ever heard of a forth heaven. Thus logic would lead one to believe that the third heaven is Paradise since it obviously is neither the first or second. You state, “Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been in John 20:17.” That statement is true, except, “This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17,” for the reasoning given.Your error in reasoning does not lesson the fact that Jesus never left his tomb before Sunday morning to return to His Father in the third heaven/paradise as both Paul and Jesus refer to it, supporting the fact that the comma in Lk 23:43 should have been placed after the word “today” not in front of it.

The remainder of your post deals with your understanding of a soul. I explained to you the very essence of a soul in my first post to you, but you have not grasped its true meaning so l will explain again what the Bible reveals. Look again at (Genesis 2:7) One must understand that man was formed from two elements, dust of the earth, and the breath of life from Jesus our creator. It is only when these “Two elements” come together that a “living soul” is created, thus man became a living soul/ person/being. Please realize that Jesus did not put a living soul in man, but rather man became a “living soul” only when those two elements were combined. Now let’s give thought to death. Based on Gen. 2:7 description of a living soul, does it not make sense that death would occur when the body and breath are separated? If that makes sense to you, then we also must understand that the living soul ceases to exist, thus a living soul dies,
( Ez.18;20) and the living soul/ person/ being knows nothing (Ecc. 9: 5,6, 10) This is the first death of mankind, and is the consequences of sin, and Jesus refers to this first death as sleep,(Jn 11:11-14) because all who experience the first death will latter be called forth from the grave in either the first of second resurrection, after the seven last plagues, not at death. (Jn. 5:28, 29)

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” You state, “Acts 2:29 only talks about David’s grave not about his soul.” When a sole is correctly understood as a living being/person, then it would not make sense in this verse to talk about his soul since David was a living soul and is mentioned by name. Luke drives home the fact that David is nowhere, other than in his tomb since his death, and his soul is not in paradise/the third heaven.

Psalms 115:17, “The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence”. This texts makes perfect sense just as it reads when one understands the correct understanding of a iiving sole/ person/being when they die. They are silent/asleep in their grave, in the first death, therefore they cannot praise the Lord, until they are resurrected. Please note in this texts no mention of any living souls going to paradise/third heaven. With respect to this verse you claim, “the dead bodies do not praise the Lord but the souls do … ) Yes, common sense leads one to believe that bodies do not praise the Lord, but you inject the idea that the souls of those dead bodies do, when it is never mentioned in this text. Why, because the souls of these dead do not exist since the “body and breath ” has been separated upon their death, therefore the living soul does not exist, thus incapable of giving praise to God.

(Ecc 9:5,6, 10) “5) For the living[souls/persons/beings] know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,[because they are no longer living souls/ persons/being] And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. 10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Note again in these texts no mention of living souls going to paradise/third heaven, why, because the "body and breath" are separated at death and the soul ceases to exist. Note also in the brackets my words adder for clarity, and how much sense the texts makes just as it reads when one understands what makes up a living soul.

You state, “the first two verses refer to the body not the soul. Verse 10 is also not talking about the soul …”. This statement again proves your lack of understanding as to what a soul is. You believe that a soul can exist outside the body. Wrong, a soul consists of two elements body and the breath of life. (Gen. 2:7) without a body a living soul does not exist.

Do not continue to let the devil deceive you on this very important subject. Pleas give all that I have conveyed to you prayerful consideration. Most likely you are defending your religions teaching on "Death". As you know religions are very diverse on their teaching. They all teach some truths and some error. Each of us should place our faith in God's word should we find our religion teachings are wrong on some issues. Would yor agree?

 

[Hentenza]

Yes indeed both Paul and Jesus called the third heaven paradise because it’s farther out, than the first heaven in which birds and plans fly and the law of gravity is in play. The second is where the planets are suspended beyond the laws of gravity. The third heaven is beyond all that which we can’t see into and where God and angels reside and New Jerusalem. Neither you or I have ever heard of a forth heaven. Thus logic would lead one to believe that the third heaven is Paradise since it obviously is neither the first or second. You state, “Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been in John 20:17.” That statement is true, except, “This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17,” for the reasoning given.Your error in reasoning does not lesson the fact that Jesus never left his tomb before Sunday morning to return to His Father in the third heaven/paradise as both Paul and Jesus refer to it, supporting the fact that the comma in Lk 23:43 should have been placed after the word “today” not in front of it.

1. I never mentioned a fourth heaven do not sure where you go that from.

2. Jesus body remained in the tomb for three days but His divine self did not. 1 Peter 3 tells us that He ministered to the spirits in “prison” and that He went to paradise as He told the thief. This has been Christian teaching since the beginning.

The remainder of your post deals with your understanding of a soul. I explained to you the very essence of a soul in my first post to you, but you have not grasped its true meaning so l will explain again what the Bible reveals. Look again at (Genesis 2:7) One must understand that man was formed from two elements, dust of the earth, and the breath of life from Jesus our creator. It is only when these “Two elements” come together that a “living soul” is created, thus man became a living soul/ person/being. Please realize that Jesus did not put a living soul in man, but rather man became a “living soul” only when those two elements were combined. Now let’s give thought to death. Based on Gen. 2:7 description of a living soul, does it not make sense that death would occur when the body and breath are separated? If that makes sense to you, then we also must understand that the living soul ceases to exist, thus a living soul dies,
( Ez.18;20) and the living soul/ person/ being knows nothing (Ecc. 9: 5,6, 10) This is the first death of mankind, and is the consequences of sin, and Jesus refers to this first death as sleep,(Jn 11:11-14) because all who experience the first death will latter be called forth from the grave in either the first of second resurrection, after the seven last plagues, not at death. (Jn. 5:28, 29)

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.” You state, “Acts 2:29 only talks about David’s grave not about his soul.” When a sole is correctly understood as a living being/person, then it would not make sense in this verse to talk about his soul since David was a living soul and is mentioned by name. Luke drives home the fact that David is nowhere, other than in his tomb since his death, and his soul is not in paradise/the third heaven.

Psalms 115:17, “The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence”. This texts makes perfect sense just as it reads when one understands the correct understanding of a iiving sole/ person/being when they die. They are silent/asleep in their grave, in the first death, therefore they cannot praise the Lord, until they are resurrected. Please note in this texts no mention of any living souls going to paradise/third heaven. With respect to this verse you claim, “the dead bodies do not praise the Lord but the souls do … ) Yes, common sense leads one to believe that bodies do not praise the Lord, but you inject the idea that the souls of those dead bodies do, when it is never mentioned in this text. Why, because the souls of these dead do not exist since the “body and breath ” has been separated upon their death, therefore the living soul does not exist, thus incapable of giving praise to God.

(Ecc 9:5,6, 10) “5) For the living[souls/persons/beings] know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,[because they are no longer living souls/ persons/being] And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. 10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

I already responded to the verses you quoted here in my last post. My response is not going to change.

Secondly why do you ignore verses that do not agree with you?

“then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

bible.com

This is about as clear as it gets. The body returns to dust and to the earth while the spirit (soul) returns to God. You can’t deny the plain reading.

Do not continue to let the devil deceive you on this very important subject. Pleas give all that I have conveyed to you prayerful consideration. Most likely you are defending your religions teaching on "Death". As you know religions are very diverse on their teaching. They all teach some truths and some error. Each of us should place our faith in God's word should we find our religion teachings are wrong on some issues. Would yor agree?

Why is it that folks that promote non mainstream doctrines always accuse others as being deceived by the devil? This view is promoted by sects like SDAs, JW’s and Chiristadelphians, of which two reject the Trinity. Soul sleep is not a mainstream teaching for the very simple reason that it is not biblical. I’m going to return your warning to you to consider.

 

[Tigger Boy]

1. I never mentioned a fourth heaven do not sure where you go that from.

2. Jesus body remained in the tomb for three days but His divine self did not. 1 Peter 3 tells us that He ministered to the spirits in “prison” and that He went to paradise as He told the thief. This has been Christian teaching since the beginning.

No you didn’t mention a forth heaven, I made it up. Because you said that, “Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17. In fact, Paul and Jesus call the third heaven paradise.” ,

Based on this statement, where is the heaven of John 20:17, the first heaven where birds and airplanes fly and the law of gravity is in play, or the second heavens further out where the planets are suspended beyond the laws of gravity?



Your senond statement, Jesus body remained in the tomb for three days but His divine self did not. 1 Peter 3 tells us that He ministered to the spirits in “prison” and that He went to paradise as He told the thief.

This statement appears to lack your understanding of what was accomplished in the death of Christ. Would you be willing to do as 1 Peter 3:15 instructs and answer some question in this regard?

 

[Hentenza]

No you didn’t mention a forth heaven, I made it up. Because you said that, “Paradise is the third heaven as Paul describes in 2 Cor. 12. This heaven is not the same as where Jesus explains He has not been to in John 20:17. In fact, Paul and Jesus call the third heaven paradise.” ,

Based on this statement, where is the heaven of John 20:17, the first heaven where birds and airplanes fly and the law of gravity is in play, or the second heavens further out where the planets are suspended beyond the laws of gravity?



Your senond statement, Jesus body remained in the tomb for three days but His divine self did not. 1 Peter 3 tells us that He ministered to the spirits in “prison” and that He went to paradise as He told the thief.

This statement appears to lack your understanding of what was accomplished in the death of Christ. Would you be willing to do as 1 Peter 3:15 instructs and answer some question in this regard?

Unfortunately your responses are not really in response to the evidence that I posted. Just because you say that it is wrong does not count as evidence. I addressed every verse that you posted in good faith but the best you have is to accuse me of not following 1 Peter 3:15. I think I’m done here.

Be blessed

 

[Tigger Boy]

Unfortunately your responses are not really in response to the evidence that I posted. Just because you say that it is wrong does not count as evidence. I addressed every verse that you posted in good faith but the best you have is to accuse me of not following 1 Peter 3:15. I think I’m done here.

Be blessed

It is my understanding that our past post prove in most cases, not all, that each of us responded to each others texts enough to understand each others general mindset, howbeit, different. Unfortunately, you see it differently.

So what is to be gained by our present endeavor? Well in doing this we uphold the counsel given in, (1 Peter 3:15). Second it exposes us to a different mind set, a perspective perhaps we have never given thought to, or clearly understood. In so doing it may strengthen our existing beliefs, or expose us to something new, and different. As christians we should be growing in knowledge in our spiritual walk with Christ. Thus, it is not possible for either of us to grow in knowledge least we have exposure to something new and different, outside of our present mindset.

I'm sorry that my last statement with regard to (1 Peter 3:15) offended you, certainly not my intent. The texts was included as a reminder that we as christians have a responsibility to answer all question concerning out faith, and in a respectable manner, which you have done in the past, and I was hoping you would continue.

Sorry you've chosen to end out conversation. Blessing to you also.

 

[CoreyD]

Genesis just talks about Adam and Eve facing death as a punishment for their sin. I was wondering what would have happened after that? Would they be resurrected and judged by Jesus? If they are saved I wonder what about Cain? Thanks.

Good evening John.
The Bible is silent on the answer to this question.
Though many will form opinions, by putting texts together, I would say we cannot be dogmatic about those conclusions.

Already, a quarrel has broken out, but the primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity.

I'm curious to know why this interests you though.
Does it have anything to do with Gods character?

 

[Tigger Boy]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. | New American Standard Bible ​

This is about as clear as it gets. The body returns to dust and to the earth while the spirit (soul) returns to God. You can’t deny the plain reading.

Hentenza you are so right, in that the texts is very clear. However, most of christianity get it wrong including you, sorry. I had too, early in my christian walk. Why are so many deceived on this issue, because most have been mislead from early childhood before they were old enough to study their bibles. Mislead by parents and pastors giving eulogies at funerals.

In your above statement Hentenza, after the word spirit, you insert the word soul, because you and most others think spirit is synonymous with soul. I have been trying to show you it is not, which is not easy when someone gets settled on a belief. So lets look at a few more texts for clarity on what this spirit actually is.

"The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)
"The spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 23:3)
"The Lord formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul' (Gen 2:7)

It is not the word "soul" that is synonymous with spirit, but rather the phrase "breath of life", according to the bible.

And as I have been sharing with you in past post, a "soul" is the combination of two elements, body + breath of life. Thus a soul is a living individual. Gods Word teaches that we are souls--not that we have souls. Therefore, upon death, a living individual/souls body returns to the earth and the spirit/breath of life returns to God, and the individual/soul ceases to exsist in life and sleeps in the first death until they are called to life again in either the first of second resurrection.

This teaching is affirmed in (Ecc.9:5,6,10; Psalm 115:17)"The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...", "The dead do not praise the Lord"

"For David did not acend into the heaven" (Acts 2:29,34)

"Only God is immortal" (1 timothy 6:15,16) The concept of an undying immortal soul is not found in the bible, which teaches that that souls are subject to death.

Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead, sleep in (Jn.11:11-14)

I have brought you and all others who may read this thread to a cross road in your undrerstanding of a soul. Will you continue on the broad road you have been traveling or will you take the less travel road through the narrow gate? Your faith in God's Word or lack thereof, will determine your path.

Blessings

 

[Tigger Boy]

. Jesus body remained in the tomb for three days but His divine self did not. 1 Peter 3 tells us that He ministered to the spirits in “prison” and that He went to paradise as He told the thief. This has been Christian teaching since the beginning.

Hentenza since you brought this texts into our conversation and I have not addressed it, I will now post an interpretation that does not put all the other texts on the soul and state of the dead in a state of conflict.

(1 Peter 3:18-20) “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us lot God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also the went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”I

It has been preached that Christ descended into the regions of the earth and preached to lost souls that were in prison in some purgatory or limbo. Let’s look at the text more closely and get the real message . It says, “Christ hath once suffered for sin that He might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh. But quickened by the Spirit by which also He went and preached…” First notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatsoever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, Hd did it through or by the Holy Spirit.

With that in mind , let’s ask this, “When was the preaching done?” The answer is plainly given in verse 20: “when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.” So the preaching was actually done while the ark was being built—during the preaching of Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: To whom was the preaching done?” The text says , “to the spirits in prison...” Throughout the Bible we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prion house of sin. David prayed “Bring my soul[life] out of prison (Psalm 142:7). What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing here which indicates that Jesus departed from the body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place o minister to wicked spirits.

The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself: He preached by the Holy Spirit, He did it while the ark was preparing, and Hd did it to the spirits in prison or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prisen house of sin.

(1 Peter 4:6) “For this cause was the gospel preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh…”, Peter did not imply that the gospel was then being preached to the souls of the dead, as some teach. He said the gospel “was preached” to those who “are [now] dead.” The preaching was done while they were still alive, and they will be judged on the basis of how they lived “according to men in the flesh,” or while they sere still alive.