What would happen if we find Noah's ark?

[Uphill Battle]

Exactly! I know when I feel the presence of Zeus, and even more so with Athena. When you feel a presence, that is evidence!

oh... wait...

except that you don't, do you? you just use it as mockery of something you don't understand. And if you don't understand it, I.E. able to work it under a bunsen burner, it just ain't real.

 

[nvxplorer]

what I meant was your inferance that believeing in something like the Holy Spirit is on par with taking mind altering drugs.

He didn’t equate belief with drugs, but a spiritual experience. The mind is altered by many things. Go without food or sleep for several days; mind altering. Jump out of an airplane; mind altering. Plan a candlelight dinner with your mate; mind altering. Attend a religious revival; mind altering. You have been conditioned to associate certain (God given) substances as being evil. The truth is; altering conciousness with these substances is no different than any other mind altering activity.

 

[AirPo]

I didn't say anything about the legality or morality of drugs. I resent the inference that Drug use is on par with belief in the Holy Spirit.

Actually he implied that spiritual experiences are on a par with drug use.

 

[Uphill Battle]

He didn’t equate belief with drugs, but a spiritual experience. The mind is altered by many things. Go without food or sleep for several days; mind altering. Jump out of an airplane; mind altering. Plan a candlelight dinner with your mate; mind altering. Attend a religious revival; mind altering. You have been conditioned to associate certain (God given) substances as being evil. The truth is; altering conciousness with these substances is no different than any other mind altering activity.

I don't remember the last person who had dinner with a mate, and saw purple elephants. Give me a break, they aren't close to the same when it comes to the altering of conciousness.

 

[AirPo]

I didn't say see. don't twist my words.

So then you hear the Holy Spirit?

 

[nvxplorer]

I didn't say anything about the legality or morality of drugs. I resent the inference that Drug use is on par with belief in the Holy Spirit.

What irony. There is obvious contradiction in your words. If you had no internal issues with drug use, you would not resent any implication. You would simply disagree with it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What irony. There is obvious contradiction in your words. If you had no internal issues with drug use, you would not resent any implication. You would simply disagree with it.

see, again you decide what I do or do not mean. I didn't say I didn't think there WAS something wrong with drugs. I just didn't address the morality of it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

So then you hear the Holy Spirit?

let me guess. going through the five senses, are we? I got to remember that that is all you believe to be real.

 

[nvxplorer]

I don't remember the last person who had dinner with a mate, and saw purple elephants. Give me a break, they aren't close to the same when it comes to the altering of conciousness.

Why would someone see purple elephants when sexually aroused? (And who are you to say they don’t?) How is this relevant? Visual hallucinations are not the only way conciousness can be altered. Find a Native American who will take you on a vision quest. When you’re finished, you should be convinced of the power of the mind sans any external substance - hallucinations and all.

 

[AirPo]

let me guess. going through the five senses, are we? I got to remember that that is all you believe to be real.

Well you said it was the same as with anyone else. So I figured you see the Holy Spirit because that is the most obvious way to know someone else is present. So I guess you don't hear the Holy Spirit either then. You've already said you don't feel the Holy Spirit. So what's left, smell?

 

[And-U-Say]

except that you don't, do you? you just use it as mockery of something you don't understand. And if you don't understand it, I.E. able to work it under a bunsen burner, it just ain't real.

Oh really? If your age is indeed 28, then I was a bible believeing christain for longer than you have been alive. I do understand how easy it is to fool oneself, as has been explained innumerable time on this forum. I too have felt a presence. I know now that this is just that, a feeling. No more useful for revealing truth than any other feeling.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Oh really? If your age is indeed 28, then I was a bible believeing christain for longer than you have been alive. I do understand how easy it is to fool oneself, as has been explained innumerable time on this forum. I too have felt a presence. I know now that this is just that, a feeling. No more useful for revealing truth than any other feeling.

the amount of time I have been following Christ as opposed to the time that you state YOU did has little relevance.

 

[BananaSlug]

Drug use is on par with spiritual experiences. Native religions all over the world have used mind altering substances for spiritual experiences! The fact is that it produces the same mind-altering consciousness of spirituality. You "feel" the presence of the Holy Spirit because chemicals released into your brain gave you that feeling. The same goes for a Siberian shaman ingesting fly agaric mushrooms.

Secondly, I used it to represent how something that is considered "spiritual" is nothing more than the reaction of two chemicals in the brain.

If you believed that yage was in fact a spiritual drink, then all of the things that happen while under the influence are spiritual. Spirituality is in the mind of the beholder.

 

[nvxplorer]

Drug use is on par with spiritual experiences. Native religions all over the world have used mind altering substances for spiritual experiences! The fact is that it produces the same mind-altering consciousness of spirituality. You "feel" the presence of the Holy Spirit because chemicals released into your brain gave you that feeling. The same goes for a Siberian shaman ingesting fly agaric mushrooms.

Secondly, I used it to represent how something that is considered "spiritual" is nothing more than the reaction of two chemicals in the brain.

If you believed that yage was in fact a spiritual drink, then all of the things that happen while under the influence are spiritual. Spirituality is in the mind of the beholder.

So true. Spiritual experiences are also achieved without the use of substances. Chanting; meditation; depriving oneself of food, sleep and water; all can result in altered conciousness and a spiritual experience. Throughout history, the spiritual and altered conciousness have been synonymous with many cultures. When I see people at a Christian revival, hands waving, falling to their knees, weeping and babbling; it’s apparent that this link between the spiritual and altered conciousness is alive and well, whether they admit it or not.

 

[Uphill Battle]

So true. Spiritual experiences are also achieved without the use of substances. Chanting; meditation; depriving oneself of food, sleep and water; all can result in altered conciousness and a spiritual experience. Throughout history, the spiritual and altered conciousness have been synonymous with many cultures. When I see people at a Christian revival, hands waving, falling to their knees, weeping and babbling; it’s apparent that this link between the spiritual and altered conciousness is alive and well, whether they admit it or not.

right. Because it CAN'T be real.

 

[BananaSlug]

Jesus fasted for 40 days before he preached. Depravation of food and sleep were probably among the first ways of reaching altered consciousness. Let's not forget pain either. Aztec priests would shove a stingray spine through their thingy to reach extacy.

Altered consciousness is acheived through various ways in various religions. But no matter what method you use, the same effect takes place in the brain.

mind altering=spiritual

 

[BananaSlug]

right. Because it CAN'T be real.

So is Hinduism real? Is Shintoism real? By a Christian definition, none of the other religions are "real" because Christianity is the "One True Religion"

 

[AirPo]

right. Because it CAN'T be real.

It's real, just not what you think it is.

 

[nvxplorer]

right. Because it CAN'T be real.

It’s very real. The difference being, someone who takes peyote recreationally doesn’t believe he experienced the supernatural once the effect wears off. A Native American whose intent is to experience the spiritual, believes peyote is his window to that realm. Likewise, those who intend to experience God through Christian ritual walk away believing that this is indeed what happened.

I recommend any of the many books by Joseph Campbell. The Power of Myth is readable (unlike some of his more scholastic works), and goes in depth on the history, application and effects of myth and ritual on world civilization and cultures. Campbell is a Catholic, so his views are not anti-God.

 

[Uphill Battle]

It's real, just not what you think it is.

may I ask how you think you know what it is? I get awfully sick and tired of being told my relationship with God IS or ISN'T by people who don't acknowledge his existance in the first place.