What would happen if we find Noah's ark?

[dad]

how can scientists, who study only the physical, have an opinion on the matter?

Precisely!!!!!!
They are in no position to make a claim that the past and our future was or will be just a natural, or physical only one. Therefore, those who claim such a thing are not speaking for science!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Because only the physical can be reliably studied. False ideas and claims can be rejected by studying the physical, while there is no such method to discern the validity of anything supernatural. This is how we function in everyday life. This is how we think. If we appealed to the supernatural, not a single criminal conviction would be possible.

I hope when you say WE, you aren't including everyone in that statement.

So then...you can't invalidate supernatural, so it's invalid. that is your basic position on the supernatural. Like I've said before, and was never addressed... it it really true that if it didn't come from a beaker or a focus group, that it isn't real to you? Everything?

 

[dad]

because all the evidence points to it (so far). If evidence for something other than the "PO" comes along, we'll have to examine it like everything else.

How can creationists, who only study Genesis, have an opinion on the matter of evolution?

Not true at all. No evidence exists of any such thing. The belief based interpretation of evidences we do have, have simply been misinterpreted, assuning all the way that it will be only a PO future, for example here, and that's why it is commonly taught (even in some schools, believe it or not) that the sun will one day 'burn out'. It won't -ever.

 

[BananaSlug]

error in logic. stating that something becomes less than what it is, because you know about it, is untrue.

Where was there error? I simply stated that once we are able to measure something, it is no longer supernatural. If we were able to measure the spiritual, it would no longer be spiritual, but physical.

 

[dad]

What qualifications do YEC's have to make proclamations against evolution?

What specifically can you tell me about how the little entire universe in a less than dust sized speck hot soup that came out of nowhere, and how, and why? What can you tell me of how and why the so called first lifeform came from non life? What qualifications does anyone have on these things, upon which rest all evolutionary old ageisms? None. Evolution is a faith based system that rests literally on nothing! Now, with the proclamations it's believers, and devotees make based only, I repeat, only, once again here, ONLY present PO observations, about how chrisytians are wrong to believe in a real creation, you ought to look in a mirror here, when asking that!

What molecular, paleontological, or biological research have they done?

Amen, preach it, bro.

YEC's simply quotemine and use "personal incredulity" arguements against evolution.

Really? That is the grand source, and motives, is it? Guess you oughta know.

Name some scientific experiements that falsify evolution. We can't study anything other than the "PO" because once we find something other than the "PO" it becomes part of the "PO."

No, it doesn't, unless what you find is part of the PO universe. Nothing in the eternal new heavens will be!

There are fields of parapsychology and "ghost hunters." While most things of that nature can be explained with glare, insect reflections, etc. there is still a very small percentage that we cannot explain.

Wrong. Just because you cook up so called flimsy PO explanations, in a weird attempt to explain away real known, phenomena, doesn't mean those 'explanations' are worth anything, in many if not most cases!

But as stated before, once something supernatural is found and recorded beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is no longer "supernatural."

Once your physical only future and past are found and recorded, we can talk seriously about your beliefs. Don't hold your breath, they never will be!

 

[AirPo]

how can scientists, who study only the physical, have an opinion on the matter?

Because in dad's fantasy universe, things are different.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Where was there error? I simply stated that once we are able to measure something, it is no longer supernatural. If we were able to measure the spiritual, it would no longer be spiritual, but physical.

I can measure within myself, the effect of the Holy Spirit. I can look at what I was, and attribute it to exactly that. It makes it no less supernatural.

 

[nvxplorer]

I hope when you say WE, you aren't including everyone in that statement.

Everyone who isn’t affected by a serious psychiatric condition. I assume that includes you in “we.” Some people believe they can fly. I take it that you don’t. Some people hear voices. I assume you don’t. When I wake up in the morning, I realize that I must go to work if I intend to feed myself. Some may think food will be delivered through prayer or magic. We can imagine an infinite number of alternate realities, but most of us are capable of separating fact from fiction. Claims of “God made me do it,” or “Those stolen goods appeared out of nowhere” don’t carry any weight in a court of law.

So then...you can't invalidate supernatural, so it's invalid. that is your basic position on the supernatural. Like I've said before, and was never addressed... it it really true that if it didn't come from a beaker or a focus group, that it isn't real to you? Everything?

I can’t invalidate the works of Frank Herbert, either. Shall we then treat the characters and events in Dune as historical? Shall we devise a defense against invisible, telepathic Martians for future rover missions? Such beliefs could indeed be real to someone, but if you understand why you would reject such beliefs, you can understand why I reject claims of the supernatural.

 

[AirPo]

Not true at all. No evidence exists of any such thing. The belief based interpretation of evidences we do have, have simply been misinterpreted, assuning all the way that it will be only a PO future, for example here, and that's why it is commonly taught (even in some schools, believe it or not) that the sun will one day 'burn out'. It won't -ever.

The sun is eternal?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Everyone who isn’t affected by a serious psychiatric condition. I assume that includes you in “we.” Some people believe they can fly. I take it that you don’t. Some people hear voices. I assume you don’t. When I wake up in the morning, I realize that I must go to work if I intend to feed myself. Some may think food will be delivered through prayer or magic. We can imagine an infinite number of alternate realities, but most of us are capable of separating fact from fiction. Claims of “God made me do it,” or “Those stolen goods appeared out of nowhere” don’t carry any weight in a court of law.


I can’t invalidate the works of Frank Herbert, either. Shall we then treat the characters and events in Dune as historical? Shall we devise a defense against invisible, telepathic Martians for future rover missions? Such beliefs could indeed be real to someone, but if you understand why you would reject such beliefs, you can understand why I reject claims of the supernatural.

sure, I believe in the physical realm. what I do NOT do, is discount the extraordinary.

And there is a difference in dismissing the works of a man, (who incedentaly, made no claims to the effect) and the works of God (who incedentally, did.) as supernatural.

 

[BananaSlug]

What specifically can you tell me about how the little entire universe in a less than dust sized speck hot soup that came out of nowhere, and how, and why? What can you tell me of how and why the so called first lifeform came from non life? What qualifications does anyone have on these things, upon which rest all evolutionary old ageisms? None. Evolution is a faith based system that rests literally on nothing! Now, with the proclamations it's believers, and devotees make based only, I repeat, only, once again here, ONLY present PO observations, about how chrisytians are wrong to believe in a real creation, you ought to look in a mirror here, when asking that!

Um, evolution has nothing to do with how life got here. Once it got here, it evolved. It seems that your beef is with abiogenesis. I admit I don't know everything, noone does. But regardless of how life got it, it evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve until the sun burns out, Jesus comes back, or Ragnarok happens.

 

[nvxplorer]

I can measure within myself, the effect of the Holy Spirit. I can look at what I was, and attribute it to exactly that. It makes it no less supernatural.

Exactly! This is indeed the supernatural: That which is devised in the mind. What you cannot show is that it is the Holy Spirit working within you. It could be any other named spirit, as well as any imagined spirit or force. Or it could be none of these. If you had no knowledge of the Bible, which itself is a physical entity, you would not think to attribute anything to the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I can test the effects of gravity with no prior knowledge whatsoever. This gives us a clue as to the origin of supernatural thinking, and the difference between it and observable reality.

 

[BananaSlug]

I can measure within myself, the effect of the Holy Spirit. I can look at what I was, and attribute it to exactly that. It makes it no less supernatural.

How exactly do you measure something within yourself? I'm sure a Hindu can feel the effect of Ganesh within him. I guess they can attribute that to Ganesh and the supernatural.

Scientists don't take measurements on "feelings" (unless they strapped sensors to your head to see what parts of the brain are effected). They use devices and sensors and other means to measure something. Once a scientist can measure a phenomenon and classify it, it is no longer supernatural.
Did you at one time people had a "feeling" that flies spontaneously arose from rotted meat?

 

[Uphill Battle]

How exactly do you measure something within yourself? I'm sure a Hindu can feel the effect of Ganesh within him. I guess they can attribute that to Ganesh and the supernatural.

Scientists don't take measurements on "feelings" (unless they strapped sensors to your head to see what parts of the brain are effected). They use devices and sensors and other means to measure something. Once a scientist can measure a phenomenon and classify it, it is no longer supernatural.
Did you at one time people had a "feeling" that flies spontaneously arose from rotted meat?

I'm merely pointing out that things exist beyond what your scopes, rulers and test tubes can tell you.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Exactly! This is indeed the supernatural: That which is devised in the mind. What you cannot show is that it is the Holy Spirit working within you. It could be any other named spirit, as well as any imagined spirit or force. Or it could be none of these. If you had no knowledge of the Bible, which itself is a physical entity, you would not think to attribute anything to the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I can test the effects of gravity with no prior knowledge whatsoever. This gives us a clue as to the origin of supernatural thinking, and the difference between it and observable reality.

It gives you no clues whatsoever. It gives you a perceived justification to dismiss it, because you either don't understand or acknowledge it.

 

[nvxplorer]

sure, I believe in the physical realm. what I do NOT do, is discount the extraordinary.

Did you hear about the man who won the Megabucks jackpot for a second time? Extraordinary? You bet. Supernatural? No.

Reality does not conform to any particular human’s epistemological level. What a child may find extraordinary, a teen understands. What confuses a teen is easily reasoned by an adult.

And there is a difference in dismissing the works of a man, (who incedentaly, made no claims to the effect) and the works of God (who incedentally, did.) as supernatural.

The author’s claim of fiction is irrelevant. If he had claimed otherwise, would you then accept the works as factual? If not, you should understand why I reject the claims of Moses, et. al.

 

[dad]

Um, evolution has nothing to do with how life got here.

Well, it has something to do with granny bacteria, the first lifeform showing up, and doing the mutation tango, to produce all life on earth! Without the big bang universe in a speck, providing the 'dancefloor' here, ol granny would have had no place for her dance!

Once it got here, it evolved.

Ha. Guess that explains it all, then.

It seems that your beef is with abiogenesis. I admit I don't know everything, noone does.

You're on the right track, at least you admit you don't know.

But regardless of how life got it, it evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve

In the physical only world here, the adapting or what some call evolving of God's amazing creations goes on, but at a slow rate. The dates they cook up are resting solidly on this bogus crutch!

until the sun burns out, Jesus comes back, or Ragnarok happens

Even when Jesus comes back to absolutely rule the entire world with His believers, with a rod of iron, we may see some adapting as we now do, at least for the thousand year reign. After that, the merged new heavens and earth (merged) are here, and any adapting, if needed, or wanted, would be able again to happen at breakneck speeds!

 

[Electric Sceptic]

This thread isn't the place for empty negative repetitive droning.

Then why do you keep doing it?

You have no evidence for this 'merged' universe that is the basis of all your belief. Fine. I can live with that.

 

[BananaSlug]

I do yage. I really experience a spiritual journey when taking it. It is however, all in my mind. A trip brought about by mixing Banisteriopsis caapi (a MAOI) with Psychotria viridis (a DMT containing plant). It has been used for thousands of years by Amazonia shamans as a divining tool into the spiritual world.
Normally, DMT ingested orally would simply be broken down by the liver, but with a MAOI, it is a potent hallucinogen. Now this plant which supposedly is revered for its spiritual properties is nothing more than a mixing of two chemicals. This shows that it really has no innate spiritual properties, simply what the natives gave to it.
Christian spiritualism works much the same manner (without the drugs). If you go to a large Christian concert, you can "feel" the peace in the air. Everyone singing and handwaving. Of course, if you were to go to a Buddhist peace concert you would undoubtedly "feel" the same thing. The point is that the belief and peace causes dopamine to be released into the brain, which has a "feel good" effect.

Basically, I'm stating that if you use "personal feelings" (I could feel the Holy Spirit!) as "proof" of your religion, that means other religions have equal proof.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Did you hear about the man who won the Megabucks jackpot for a second time? Extraordinary? You bet. Supernatural? No.

Reality does not conform to any particular human’s epistemological level. What a child may find extraordinary, a teen understands. What confuses a teen is easily reasoned by an adult.


The author’s claim of fiction is irrelevant. If he had claimed otherwise, would you then accept the works as factual? If not, you should understand why I reject the claims of Moses, et. al.

Extra-ordinary. Don't mince words to avoid the point.