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What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

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variant

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I think most atheists in general have a "direct evidence or no evidence" mentality when it comes to belief in God. That isn't reasonable. Unlike a human, God has no physical body to take a photograph of. Even the times where God directly revealed himself in Bible, it was always done with God's main goal at that time in mind, such as God revealing himself to Moses in order to set the Israelites free. These experiences were almost always only given to a handful of people at a time.

According to your scriptures God had no problem evidencing himself fairly directly in the past, through any number of events that would be hard to explain otherwise. So, if such a being exists, it is entirely possible.

What we get is 2000 year old stories that seem like they were made up by the same hooligans that do faith 'healing' today...

If God really existed, loved me and desperately wanted to get through to me, yes, I would expect more.
 
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Johnnz

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What we get is 2000 year old stories that seem like they were made up by the same hooligans that do faith 'healing' today...

If God really existed, loved me and desperately wanted to get through to me, yes, I would expect more.

When I see a post such as this I see ignorance on a grand scale. Rational debate is simply not possible.

John
NZ
 
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variant

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When I see a post such as this I see ignorance on a grand scale. Rational debate is simply not possible.

John
NZ

Who said I wanted to debate you?

Send some faith healers to Africa and clear up the whole Ebola mess, let God make a believer out of me.

What's stopping you guys exactly?

If you didn't get it, line two of my reply here is what evidence of God would look like.
 
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jax5434

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]No, as I said before; everybody agrees on the accomplishments of Ceasar and other historical figures; everybody does not agree on Jesus.
You seem to be under the impression that truth is determined by popular opinion.

I have already given you the evidence.
All I have seen are bald assertions and specal pleading.

Do you have evidence outside of the Bible that everything they wrote was accurate?
To the same degree as any other ancient document.
Do you have evidence (outside the bible) that what was written about Jesus in the Quran is inaccurate?
If the resurrection happened all of the qaran is false
If I were all knowing and I knew exactly what my teen-ager were going to do, and when he was going to do it; I wouldn't all of a sudden get angry when he does it.
Now that is an extraordinary claim for a father to make. I'm afraid it will require some extraordinary evidence.
! You are not thus I suspect you are bluffing.
Kent...I never bluff.
However..... If you think you have such evidence
Remember my contention all along has been that, using the same techniques, the resurrection can be established to the same degree of certainty as other ancient events that are considered to be true.
, as I said before; I would be happy to see it.
I'll make my first post tomorrow evening.
God Bless
Jax
 
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Johnnz

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What ignorance? Could you elaborate? It seems like a fair question to ask.

Here is an article written by an atheist that is worthy of consideration, unlike yours.

An Atheist’s Defense of the Historicity of Jesus

[FONT=&quot]I can’t believe I’m feeling the need to do this, but today I’d like to write a brief defense of the historicity of Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When climate change deniers want to insist that our actions have no impact on global temperatures, they display a remarkable disdain for an entire discipline populated by credentialed professionals in that field who say otherwise. It doesn’t seem to bother the deniers that they themselves have no specialization in the academic field they disparage because in any field of study there will always be at least some small contingent who go against the consensus. The existence of those outliers is justification enough for the deniers to say, “This business is far from certain, you know. Just look at these four people who disagree!”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That’s how I feel when people in the skeptic community argue that Jesus never existed. They are dismissing a large body of work for which they have insufficient appreciation, most often due to the fact that they themselves have never formally studied the subject. And yes, I know that the study of religon and of antiquity is a far “softer” field of study than climatology (and therefore more subject to personal bias). But that doesn’t mean we can’t reasonably conclude anything at all about the distant past. There are at least a handful of things about the origins of the Christian religion which we can reasonably conclude based on the things that we know. Among them are that there was most likely a guy named Jesus who preached and was killed outside Jerusalem, and that after his death a diverse following emerged which built around that event a narrative which grew to become the Christian faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The existence of two or three professionals within the study of antiquity claiming that Jesus never existed does not signal a sea change in that field. There haven’t been any new discoveries in the past few years which signal any significant changes in that discipline. The only thing I see that’s changed is public opinion.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What Do We Know?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The earliest writings which attest to the existence of Jesus come from the apostle Paul, a leather worker by day and preacher by night who by many accounts was the man most responsible for the founding of the Christian faith we’ve come to know today. But the oral tradition which later came to inform the writing of the gospels almost certainly originated independently of his influence and predates the ministry of Paul by many years. At least in its most basic form, the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus had matured into a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]credal form[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by the time Paul sat down to write (or else dictate) his first letter to the Corinthians, some time in the mid-50′s AD:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While Paul cleverly added himself into this formula in an attempt to put himself on par with the guys who actually knew Jesus, the language of passing along a received tradition should tell us something. It’s the same language he uses [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a few chapters earlier[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in describing the eucharistic meal he had been taught to observe:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul didn’t invent these stories himself; they had been handed down to him by others. Now that doesn’t mean he didn’t significantly rework the Christian message into a tradition which his Judean forbears would scarcely recognize. It seems obvious to me that Paul’s refashioning of the Christian story to accommodate a Gentile audience heavily influenced most subsequent expressions of this nascent movement, and it seems it even affected the later written form of the gospels themselves. But the oral tradition around which those stories were woven didn’t begin with him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In fact, the sayings and parables attributed to Jesus are famously absent from Paul’s letters, which tells us two things: 1) He really seemed either unfamiliar or unconcerned with a great deal of the oral tradition (much of which was probably still in formation during his ministry), and therefore 2) For all his influence in the development of early Christianity, he didn’t invent all of this stuff himself. The criterion of dissimilarity actually counts for something. As time went on, Pauline Christianity conflicted with Judean Christianity on many occasions, prompting [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a conference[/FONT][FONT=&quot] over which the two opposing factions contintued to disagree for years to come. In the end, it appears that Paulinian Christianity won out, and it was those New Testament writings which his communities produced which later came to dominate the established canon.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Too much has been made of the contemporary silence about Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Exactly how much notoriety would you expect a Jewish peasant to have in his context? How worthy of public record was the life and execution of an itinerant rabbi from Galilee? The civic leaders of the time didn’t even consider the names of those executed important enough to record for posterity. While highly colored by religious bias, the amount of information we have about Jesus is still impressive in comparison to any other non-official person of his time, even when pared down the most essential details. It’s true that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But it’s not extraordinary to claim that an itinerant Jewish preacher got in trouble with the law and was executed, nor in that day and age would it be extraordinary to see a following emerge around his life and teachings.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why Do I Care About This?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While we skeptics roll our eyes at how uncritically the religious repeat things they’ve heard, we tend to obsess over fact-checking what we read so that we don’t pass along incorrect information. We’ve all had that embarrassing moment when we post a link on social media only to find out that yet another new parody site has slipped past our notice (they’re multplying like rabbits these days). But we strive to do better than that. We pride ourselves on our own ideological parsimony, and we work hard to make sure the stuff we say isn’t based on insufficiently thought-through assumptions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But it doesn’t feel like that’s happening here. It feels like here lately a growing number of fellow freethinkers are jumping on the bandwagon of an intellectual position that hasn’t yet earned credibility. Rather than concluding that the New Testament simply exaggerated the size and scope of the Christian church during its earliest years, people are jumping all the way to the opposite ditch and concluding that every single thing contained therein must have been made up entirely. But the many contradictions and variations we encounter within the gospels (and noncanonical books) point to the unreliability of the sources, but not necessarily to the complete nonexistence of their central figure. And while the oldest extant copies of Paul’s letters date back to nearly a century after the time that he wrote them, we posess no variants of those letters which leave out the credal statements referenced above, leaving us with the reality of an early attestation (mid-first-century) of the existence of Jesus. There’s a method to determining these things, and a pretty thoroughly developed academic discipline underneath it all. It doesn’t speak well of us to dismiss whole disciplines with the wave of a hand on account of two or three of its members finally suggesting something we wanted to believe all along.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And that right there is my biggest problem with the mythicist position. During my deconversion I learned to be highly suspicious of my own willingness to accept ideas that I wanted to be true without applying the same intellectual rigor and skepticism toward those ideas before accepting them. I suspect that many non-theists would love the vindication of discovering that the whole Jesus story was made up from start to finish. Not just embellished by layers of legend developed over decades of telling and retelling the stories to a wide-eyed audience, but fabricated out of whole cloth and completely devoid of historical fact. The layers of legend over a kernel of original history makes the most sense to me. And I don’t think it makes us look very objective when we too eagerly embrace a position which contradicts an almost universal consensus among those who have devoted their lives to the academic discipline which concerns itself with these matters. We of all people should know better.[/FONT]

John
NZ
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Here is an article written by an atheist that is worthy of consideration, unlike yours.

How does that answer my question? I asked you what about variant's post was ignorant. It seems like he was asking a fair question. If an omnipotent and omniscient being desired to have a personal relationship with you, wouldn't you expect better? You responded by abruptly switching topics to the historicity of Jesus. While an interesting topic in itself, I don't see how it's relevant to my question of you.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Here is an article written by an atheist that is worthy of consideration, unlike yours.

I hope there's more to the historicity argument than that, because his argument is weak.

It amounts to:

1) The story of the death and resurrection of someone named "Jesus" predates Paul's ministry.
2) Even though there were no contemporary accounts of Jesus, he might still have existed and gone unnoticed. Hey, why not?

That's not much of a rebuttal to the Jesus Mythicism of Carrier or Doherty. The Jesus Mythicist position is easily compatible with both claims, and one almost feels like flipping a coin to decide the matter. Neither is strong positive evidence, but amount to "Hey, why not?"


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Ana the Ist

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I hope there's more to the historicity argument than that, because his argument is weak.

It amounts to:

1) The story of the death and resurrection of someone named "Jesus" predates Paul's ministry.
2) Even though there were no contemporary accounts of Jesus, he might still have existed and gone unnoticed. Hey, why not?

That's not much of a rebuttal to the Jesus Mythicism of Carrier or Doherty. The Jesus Mythicist position is easily compatible with both claims, and one almost feels like flipping a coin to decide the matter. Neither is strong positive evidence, but amount to "Hey, why not?"


eudaimonia,

Mark

Ever hear of the cargo cult of John Frum?
 
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Ken-1122

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that[/b] is an extraordinary claim for a father to make. I'm afraid it will require some extraordinary evidence.

Kent...I never bluff.

Remember my contention all along has been that, using the same techniques, the resurrection can be established to the same degree of certainty as other ancient events that are considered to be true.

I'll make my first post tomorrow evening.
God Bless
Jax
You claim I am more critical of claims made about Jesus than I am about the claims made about Caesar, Plato, Homer, and others; but the claims of Caesar, Plato, and Homer are confirmed by professional historians. The claims of Jesus aren’t. I don’t know; there may be a few amateur historians who make claims about Jesus but I give more credence to the professional historian than the amateur ones. Heck I could proclaim myself an amateur historian! Now if you can find a professional historian who claims Jesus rose from the dead, then you might have an argument.

Ken


Edit: Now that I think about it, I probably give more merrit to the idea of extra ordinary claims requiring extra ordinary evidence as well because if a professional historian claimed George Washington threw a coin over a body of water a mile wide, or some distance that is humanly impossible; I would doubt that professional historian as well. So it isn't just if it is claimed by a professional historian, it also has to be believeable.
 
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Loudmouth

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A person who is a engineer without a degree probably has been self taught. They would have spent a lot of time tinkering around with machinery. So they are still spending a lot of time to learn all about it as though they have gone to uni. I would imagine some of the early pioneers in discovery didn't have degrees but were brilliant minds who thought outside the box. Hawkins is one of those scientists that doesn't restrict himself to the parameters of traditional thinking. He also thinks outside the box and considers other possibilities.

By thinking out of the box, do you mean how Ford engineers thought outside the box when they designed in the explosive nature of the Pinto?
 
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jax5434

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Okay Kent. Here we go.
In this first post I want to make clear to you and anyone else reading this exactly what my position is. As I have said from the beginning of this thread I believe that the resurrection of Christ can be established to the same degree of certitude as any other ancient historical event. using standard methodology.
I do not say "prove" because no evidence we have for any ancient event can rise to the level of scientific or legal proof. However since that level of proof is not required for Caesar, Homer or Alexander the Great ect. it can not credibly be demanded of the resurection either.

I will not be defending the "how" of the resurrection.
for the sake of this argument it does not matter how the resurrection happened. He could have been raised by Zeus, Osiris, Jupiter, advanced space aliens or maybe he was a mutant who had the ability to restart his cellular processes after he died.

I will not be discussing the kind of resurrection. I believe the resurrection was a literal physical event. But even if it was a "merely' a spiritual one it would not change anything.

I will not be discussing the "why" of the resurrection. As far as this discussion goes the resurrection could have happened for any number of purposes; or for no purpose at all.

I will not be treating the gospels as anything other than historical writings.

And Finally , as I will not make any special pleadings for my arguments I will not entertain such arguments from the opposition for two reasons.

1.A claim that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is admitting my position that the resurrection can meet the ordinary standards of evidence is true. After all if it could not even meet the ordinary standards, it would not be necessary to appeal to an extraordinary one.

2.An extraordinary claim needs only to show that it is more likely than any other possible explanation. (We will look at this more closely later.)

Next (hopefully tonight) a brief explanation of textual criticism, how it works, and why it matters.

God Bless
Jax
 
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jax5434

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Textual Criticism
Since there are no eyewitnesses left of any ancient event all we have left to work with are the surviving manuscripts. Ideally we would have an autograph manuscript. ( That is a manuscript actually written by the original author) To the best of my knowledge we do not have an autograph of any significant ancient event.

Therefor it is critical for serious historians to have a way of determining the trustworthiness of ancient documents. All ancient documents not just religious ones. In this regard they developed 3 tests which they use.
1. the bibliographic test
2. the internal test
3. the external test.
A brief description of each.

the bibliographical test This is the method used to establish how reliable the copies of ancient texts are in proportion to the number of available texts for comparison. This test uses two criteria.
1) how much time elapsed between the original and the oldest copies, and
2) how many copies there are.
This test does not evaluate the truth claims of the document, it only measures the accuracy of transmission.

The internal evidence test.

consistency of eyewitness reports
details of names, places, and events
letters to individuals or small groups
features embarrassing to the authors
the presence of irrelevant or counterproductive material
lack of relevant material

The external test
whether other historical material confirms or denies the internal testimony of the documents themselves. In other words, what sources (and other external factors) are there, apart from the literature under analysis, which substantiates its accuracy, reliability, and authenticity?

Incidentally Kent the books that were excluded at the council of Nicea were subjected to criteria similar to these.

I will note one more possible objection. Atheists generally believe that because the gospels are written by followers of Christ their truthfulness is automatically suspect. As someone on the internet points out this is akin to me saying.

"I don't believe in the assassination of JFK. All evidence that it happened is biased because its provided by people who believe it happened. Therefore I will only believe that JFK was assassinated if the evidence proving it is provided by people who don't believe it happened." sounds rather foolish in this context doesn't it?

I think that is sufficient background for now. Tomorrow we'll get down to brass tacks.

God Bless
Jax
 
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Ken-1122

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I will not be discussing the kind of resurrection. I believe the resurrection was a literal physical event. But even if it was a "merely' a spiritual one it would not change anything.
I disagree! I think it does have to be a physical resurrection. If you claim it is a spiritual resurrection (what-ever that is) or an imaginary resurrection, or anything other than physical; I would not dispute you on that. My objection is the claim that Jesus physically rose from the dead, which would mean his physical body would no longer exist on Earth.

Ken
 
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Johnnz

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I disagree! My objection is the claim that Jesus physically rose from the dead, which would mean his physical body would no longer exist on Earth. Ken

But that is what we believe. And such belief is not unreasonable. Thereupon was THE decisive event in human history. For the first time death itself had been overcome.

John
NZ
 
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stevevw

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Most modern day historians acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. The claims that Jesus made are in the bible, one of the oldest documents that we have of any written records from civilizations. The reason why people question it is because it makes some big claims. If it didn't people would have accepted them and it would have been filed away as a great piece of historical records. Some of the written evidence for other historical figures has even less support than the bible yet it is all accepted. For example Plato wrote his work in 427 - 327 BC. But we only have a copy of that which was written in 900AD , 1200 years later. There are only 7 copies around compared to 5600 for the bible and the bible was written less than 100 years after the events.
 
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Loudmouth

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Most modern day historians acknowledge that Jesus was a real person

Modern day historians also acknowledge that Mohammed was a real person. Does this mean that the God really did dictate the Quran to Mohammed?

Modern day historians also acknowledge that Buddha was a real person.

Modern day historians also acknowledge that Haile Selassie was a real person. Does this mean that Haile Selassie really was God incarnate as the Rastafarians claim?

The claims that Jesus made are in the bible, one of the oldest documents that we have of any written records from civilizations.

First, nothing in the Bible was written by Jesus.

Second, there are tons of written documents that are older than the gospels. The Enuma Elish from 1800 years before the gospels comes to mind.
 
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Ken-1122

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But that is what we believe. And such belief is not unreasonable. Thereupon was THE decisive event in human history. For the first time death itself had been overcome.

John
NZ
So you agree with me; that is the position he needs to defend, right?

Ken
 
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Archaeopteryx

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His faith in evolution and what God wouldn't do cause him to make the wrong conclusion; That is our eyes are poorly designed.

Again, Coyne doesn't need to have faith in evolution, and neither do you; the evidence is there. What Coyne seems to be suggesting, similar to what degrasse Tyson and others have also suggested, is that an optimally rational designer is not likely to do it that way. You could criticise that point for various reasons. However, that's beside the point because I'm asking you about faith. Where is the faith you accuse Coyne of?
 
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