What Would Evidence For God Be Like?

[xianghua]

Let's start with the question in the OP. What would evidence for God's existence be like?

something like this:

(image from https://microbeonline.com/bacterial...ortance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/)

or this one:

(image from Flagella and Cilia: Structure and Functions (With Diagram))

or this one:

(image from VCAC: Cellular Processes: ATP Synthase: Advanced Look: Synthesis)

or this:

(image from June Newsletter: Kinesin Motor Proteins and Neurodegeneration)

check also my signature link.

 

[Steve Petersen]

A god that is good (moral; ethical), would NOT require people to hold unjustified beliefs (ie: beliefs that are not grounded in rational verifiable evidence). He most certainly would NOT punish people for not holding such beliefs, nore would he reward people that do.

The very practice of demanding unjustified blind beliefs, is immoral to begin with.
Because it would reward gullibility and punish rational thinking.

You know you are being scammed when the Bible says that 'without faith it is impossible to please God.'

 

[Tree of Life]

You know you are being scammed when the Bible says that 'without faith it is impossible to please God.'

This kind of faith does not entail accepting unjustifiable beliefs or believing something contrary to evidence. This kind of faith means an enduring trust in God and His character and a dependence upon him and not upon ourselves. Abraham was called to have this faith as God audibly spoke to him and visually appeared to him, calling him to trust God and set off into the unknown. Would that be a scam? Or a relationship of trust?

It's kind of like saying that without trust, it's impossible to have a good marriage. Is that also a scam?

 

[Tinker Grey]

How does one trust a being one doesn't believe in to exist?

 

[Tree of Life]

How does one trust a being one doesn't believe in to exist?

In the world that Hebrews was written (the letter that contains this quote) atheism was fairly unheard of. Atheism has always been and will always be a seriously minority position, as religion is inherent in our humanity. We tend to believe in the divine. I suspect that there's really no such thing as atheism at all and that all people believe in God's existence to some extent, however much they suppress it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

In the world that Hebrews was written (the letter that contains this quote) atheism was fairly unheard of. Atheism has always been and will always be a seriously minority position, as religion is inherent in our humanity.

So?

We tend to believe in the divine.

We tend to be taught to believe in the divine

I suspect that there's really no such thing as atheism at all and that all people believe in God's existence to some extent, however much they suppress it.

You'd be wrong.

None of the above answers my question. You just suppose atheists to be deluded.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I suspect that there's really no such thing as atheism at all and that all people believe in God's existence to some extent, however much they suppress it.

Nope. You have it backwards. You secretly know there are no gods. You're just pretending.

 

[Tree of Life]

Nope. You have it backwards. You secretly know there are no gods. You're just pretending.

Can you prove this?

 

[Par5]

Can you prove this?

As long as you are unable to provide any verifiable evidence of your god's existence he already has proved it. Faith is not proof.

 

[Tree of Life]

As long as you are unable to provide any verifiable evidence of your god's existence he already has proved it. Faith is not proof.

He has proved that I don't really believe in God?

 

[Par5]

He has proved that I don't really believe in God?

Devoting your life to something that no one has ever demonstrated exists, and a something that Christians say mere mortals cannot comprehend does not seem like a belief to me, it just seems rather foolish.

 

[Tree of Life]

Devoting your life to something that no one has ever demonstrated exists, and a something that Christians say mere mortals cannot comprehend does not seem like a belief to me, it just seems rather foolish.

Ah. It seems foolish to you. Is this proof that I don't actually believe it?

 

[Tinker Grey]

The point would be that your suspicion that atheists really believe is as baseless as asserting that Xians really disbelieve.

 

[Tree of Life]

The point would be that your suspicion that atheists really believe is as baseless as asserting that Xians really disbelieve.

I merely voiced a suspicion. The other poster seemed to make a claim to knowledge. Aren't I free to have my suspicions?

 

[Par5]

Ah. It seems foolish to you. Is this proof that I don't actually believe it?

If you can't prove it exists, if you can't see it and you say it is beyond your understanding, then you don't know what you believe in. You may as well say you believe in a pink winged unicorn. I doubt if anyone has ever seen one of those either. What you have is faith.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I merely voiced a suspicion. The other poster seemed to make a claim to knowledge. Aren't I free to have my suspicions?

You can have them. But voicing these implies your interlocuters are either deluded are lying. This is unwelcome.

 

[cvanwey]

something like this:

(image from https://microbeonline.com/bacterial...ortance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/)

or this one:

(image from Flagella and Cilia: Structure and Functions (With Diagram))

or this one:

(image from VCAC: Cellular Processes: ATP Synthase: Advanced Look: Synthesis)

or this:

(image from June Newsletter: Kinesin Motor Proteins and Neurodegeneration)

check also my signature link.

If you want the short version:

If you want the entire documentary, provided by NOVA, please feel free to fast forward about 1 hour in, for the 'bacteria flagellum' testimony Dover vs Kitzmiller....

 

[cvanwey]

People ask for evidence for God's existence, but what would evidence for God's existence be like? Join me on this thought experiment...

Suppose that an all powerful, wise, invisible, eternal, all-knowing, and righteous God created a cosmos like the one we inhabit.

Suppose further that this God created creatures like us who are capable of knowing and worshipping Him.

Suppose a bit further that these creatures decided to rebel against their creator, refusing to give Him the worship due to Him and seeking to build a world without Him (although within the world that He created).

What would evidence for the existence of this God be like?

Well, for starters, I doubt acting as a 'ghost writer' through humans, via ancient and changing texts on paper of various forms which were later destroyed, leading to tons of interpretive issues and re-writings and alterations, would be a sufficient method....

I could not speak for any specific God, but I'll take a stab at it....

- Float down to every nation on the globe simultaneously.
- Hand out media, not produced or manufactured by any human, at that point in history.
- Written in a form also not yet produced by any human at that point in history.
- Hand them out to many people, of all nations, the exact same instructions.
- State messages within this literature which no one could possibly know at the time it was provided.
- Wait for all nations to corroborate having these preserved copies, in which they all compare.
- Wait for all nations to all report similar occurrences (i.e.) they 'received this from a floating being'.
- Make sure all these messages were indestructible, and do NOT require fallible human intervention.
- Also await that all such material provide instructions for cures to disease, technology, etc, to further demonstrate the messages came from a source from beyond any human who might instead just STATE it came from beyond.

The above would at least demonstrate that all such writings were not merely writings from humans, whom are passing off their text as 'god inspired' or 'god provided'

 

[cvanwey]

Ah. So one would expect miracles as evidence for God's existence? Christians claim that God has been the author of several miracles in history, the Red Sea event being an important example. These miracles have been recorded and preserved for all to learn about. Why aren't these miracles enough to persuade you that He exists?

I would think preserved, testable, and re-testable evidence might instead allow for the study of such... One-off anecdotal claims do very little really...

You seem to be saying that God has to jump through all the right hoops to convince you that He exists. All the responsibility is on him. You would have no responsibility before Him? Responsibility to seek Him, for example?

- Is your believed God interactive or not? Then maybe he should interact...
- Does the power of prayer work or not? Then pray for God to reveal to all non-believers...
- Do many people simply not believe due to lack in evidence, or not? Millions/billions would become believers once demonstrated...
- Would God know this, or not? If your children asked to meet with you, and you never met with them, would you be considered 'loving'?
- If everyone knew which God existed for sure, couldn't they still possess full free will, and make their own choices, or not? Um, Satan and a third of the angels come to mind....
- Why only perform miracles at a time where He would know it is not recordable, except through later hearsay and oral tradition? Seems convenient really....

 

[cvanwey]

Hah!

Ok so God mercifully creates when he does not have to. His creation rebels against him. God is well within his rights to dispatch all of the rebels. And you say that God is morally obliged to save his rebellious creation? On what do you base this moral obligation?

Oh here we go with the moral argument. Let me jump in and try to save us all time...

If God exists, He can do whatever He wants. It's not up to us.

But here's the dealio....

-The Bible states God is interactive.
-The Bible states He answers all prayers.
-The Bible states the path to heaven is beginning with belief in His existence.
-The Bible states that all non-believers will burn (more or less).
-The Bible also makes many claims regarding testable history, which appear false, (after much discovery time and peer review)...

This claimed God had His chance, and it appears the authors whom wrote this specific account, got it wrong. So it's not that any of us are saying, 'there's no god!' I would imagine, most might instead be saying.... If there exists a divine entity, it's origins do not appear to assimilate or be related to the likes or descriptions of the claimed Yahweh in which continues to be asserted.