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What Would Evidence For God Be Like?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Tree of Life, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    People ask for evidence for God's existence, but what would evidence for God's existence be like? Join me on this thought experiment...

    Suppose that an all powerful, wise, invisible, eternal, all-knowing, and righteous God created a cosmos like the one we inhabit.

    Suppose further that this God created creatures like us who are capable of knowing and worshipping Him.

    Suppose a bit further that these creatures decided to rebel against their creator, refusing to give Him the worship due to Him and seeking to build a world without Him (although within the world that He created).

    What would evidence for the existence of this God be like?
     
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  2. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Let's change this up a bit to illustrate the futility of this exercise:

    People ask for evidence for Zeus's existence, but what would evidence for Zeus's existence be like? Join me on this thought experiment...

    Suppose that an all powerful, wise, invisible, eternal, all-knowing, and righteous Zeus created a cosmos like the one we inhabit.

    Suppose further that this Zeus created creatures like us who are capable of knowing and worshiping Him.

    Suppose a bit further that these creatures decided to rebel against their creator, refusing to give Him the worship due to Him and seeking to build a world without Him (although within the world that He created).

    What would evidence for the existence of this Zeus be like?​
     
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  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Give him whatever name you'd like. However, this is a bit misleading as the figure popularly known as Zeus does not fit the description of God as described in the OP. Zeus is not eternal, not invisible, not the creator of everything, and does not stand outside of creation. He also is not righteous or all knowing.

    Are you saying that you don't know what evidence for God's existence would be like?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  4. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    The OT is full of miracles. How about parting the Red Sea in front of an audience of skeptics?
     
  5. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Ah. So one would expect miracles as evidence for God's existence? Christians claim that God has been the author of several miracles in history, the Red Sea event being an important example. These miracles have been recorded and preserved for all to learn about. Why aren't these miracles enough to persuade you that He exists?
     
  6. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Because there is no reason to believe an old book like Exodus. We need a parting of the Red Sea TODAY in front of an expectant crowd of skeptics.
     
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Ah. You need God to do a special little miracle just for you in order to believe in Him? Why should God condescend to do a special little miracle every time a skeptic demands it in order to believe?
     
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  8. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    My standard response:
    • An omniscient god would know
    • An omnipotent god could
    • An omnibenevolent god would
    At present, I can only conclude that no such god exists or that the theology that says I'm required to acknowledge that god is wrong.
     
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  9. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    There's some implied predicate to these sentences that I'm unable to detect. Could you flesh them out a bit more?
     
  10. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    I don't understand the confusion.

    Is your god omniscient? If so, it knows what would convince me.
    Is your god also omnipotent? Then it is capable of making it happen.
    Is your god also good (omni-benevolent)? Does it love everyone including me? Does it require me to acknowledge it in order to "save" me? Then it would want to do what it can to make what it knows would convince me to acknowledge it.

    If your god is omniscient and omnipotent, it also knows how to do that thing that would convince me without violating my free-will (anticipating an objection).
     
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  11. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Because according to many Christians, Jesus would have gladly died on the cross to save only one person - me.

    Besides that, if God would part the Red Sea TODAY in front of prepared audience of skeptics with video cameras and other instrumentation then the miracle would be persuasive for today's generation and all our descendants. Granted there are people who deny the moon landing, so I'm sure there would be a few that would deny the Red Sea miracle, but most sensible people would accept the historical record. Billions would be saved who might otherwise be lost.
     
  12. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    So you would have no responsibility before this God?
     
  13. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    The reality of Jesus suggests that God would be willing to do this, but you seem to suggest that God has some responsibility to do this.

    You really think so? Allegedly God did part the Red Sea and it was recorded according to the recording capabilities of the time. But this did not result in massive persuasion for even the immediate descendants of Israel.

    Jesus taught that if one does not listen to Moses and the Prophets then they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead. What do you think of that?
     
  14. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    I don't know how you got that.

    BTW: Is your god good? Is it omnipotent? Is it omniscient? Is it willing that any should perish?
     
  15. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    You seem to be saying that God has to jump through all the right hoops to convince you that He exists. All the responsibility is on him. You would have no responsibility before Him? Responsibility to seek Him, for example?
     
  16. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    See my edit.
     
  17. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    He is good and all powerful and all knowing. The last one is a bit more complex. To provide a simplistic answer, he is not willing that any of his chosen people should perish and he ensures that all of them will be saved. There's more to say on that point but for simplicity's sake I'll leave it there for now.
     
  18. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Are you saying that the fact that you don't believe is evidence that a God like the Christian God could not exist?

    I see your line of argument going something like this:

    1. If He existed, He would know how to get me to believe in Him.
    2. I do not believe in Him.
    3. Therefore, he likely does not exist.

    Is that it?
     
  19. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    So despite 2 Peter 3:9, your god is ok with 'some' perishing. All doesn't mean all?
     
  20. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    That's right.
     
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