What would change?

The Nihilist said:

Christians, hypothetically, what would change if you suddenly discovered irrefutably that there was no God? What would change about how you went about your life? Would you kill yourself? Would you fornicate in the streets? Would you not really change anything?

Also, can we not make this a thread about what atheists would do if they found out there was a god? If that's what you want to talk about, make your own thread.

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This is one of those questions that has no answer. (There are a lot of these.) Sorry.

owg

Concur. The hypothetical gets too far fetched when you say "irrefutably." If for some reason I became personally convinced there was no god of any sort, I think that under some circumstances I might at least seriously consider suicide and take my wedding vows less seriously. (Streets, however, are a most uncomfortable place to fornicate, itself an activity that does not blend well with dodging cars.) Though I doubt I would become a sociopath or career criminal, believing that "It All Just Happened" would certainly cut the foundations out from under whatever moral code you might describe me as living by. "Evolutionarily adaptive" is not much of a rallying cry.

You can't really know unless it happens.

In my case, I led a clean life in pursuit of personal growth and virtue.


eudaimonia,

Mark

The Nihilist said:

Mark, were you ever especially religious?

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What would you count as "especially religious"? I was never "born again", if that is what you mean. Occasionally, I served as an altar boy, and I did sign up to sing in a choir, although my voice was not high pitched enough for their purposes, so I stopped.

I read the Bible a few times almost from cover to cover. I found Revelations interesting, at least by science fiction story standards.

I went to Catholic Mass frequently with my mother and my brother, which while yawn inducing were nevertheless quite beautiful. I tended to find the sermons interesting for their moral messages, and priests interesting for at least symbolically representing a moral role model. I also enjoyed lighting a candle as a symbolic gesture for some prayer or wish, which on one occasion, if memory serves, was for the sake of a deceased relative I had never met.

I spoke with God frequently as a child, but God must have been talking to other more important people because I never did receive any obvious replies. Maybe I irritated him by asking occasionally for evidence of his existence. Or maybe he was practicing being mysterious so I would have to take everything on faith.

Christianity did appeal to me on an ethical level, though not so much because of the precise content of that message, but because it was so enthusiastic and optimistic about achieving good values and being a good person. I had assumed that its moral message was for the sake of achieving happiness on Earth, and Heaven was just icing on the cake -- a kind of reward for a job well done. I had to rethink that view.

After leaving Christianity, I've come to realize that my early views on ethics were merely charitable interpretations of the messages actually found in the Bible. I never stopped being who I truly was -- someone who loves life on earth, and who loves goodness and virtue for its ability to both fulfill and express the noblest potentials of life. Even though I went from theist to atheist, which may seem like a big internal change, in fact it was my perception of the world that changed around me. I was always an arrow flying on a straight course to my vision of an ideal target.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I've actually seen irrefutable proof there is a God though it was like a personal revelation of his existence that you will never believe in. God is so real that he's right there where you are and where I am and where everything is yet you won't know it unless you are perceptive or if he chooses to make it easy to live that way. By the way it would be very hard to do anything too excessive if some delusional occurance made us believe that God had been disproved irrefutably there is something called too much of a good thing leads to bad consequences. Even the greatest hedonists are miserable in this world. I would as the other poster said probably commit suicide if there was no god because I would see no purpose in living at all. Before I knew God I was going to kill myself Actually I set up for myself a 5 year plan. This april was going to be the date of my death but God revealed himself to me not as a nicey nice god but as a stern God who loves but doesn't let you off easy, actually it was very tough love I got VERY TOUGH. But it was life saving.

The Nihilist said:

Christians, hypothetically, what would change if you suddenly discovered irrefutably that there was no God?

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If I discovered this irrefutably, I would realize that I had to be outside of time and space or anywhere within creation, and that I was a god myself--which according to the question is irrefutably untrue, and thus there would be a metaphysical implosion and nothingness would paradoxically be the new reality.

Well, when it dawned on me that there's probably no God, it was a relief more than anything. I no longer had to struggle with guilt about the very natural act of masturbation. I was no longer quite as sexually inhibited, and I figured I'd start partying like an adult more often. Life has been wonderful ever since I realized it could be.

So my true-life story of a Christian realizing there is no God ends with a little more partying and fun activities, but other than that, not much changed. I still help people when they need it, and I don't go around killing people just because I won't go to hell for it.

I'd go back to the plan I had before for creating a fascist empire and reviving the Saturnalia et al. (my main aim in my fascist empire was to impose festivals...).

I'd almost certainly fail, but I reckon I'd have fun in the process.

Hi,

Atheist's in my experience are often disturbed or annoyed with the apparent assumption of the Christian that atheists are "without law", and the worst of people. Atheists typically counter this view by saying something like, "I'm nice to people, give to charity, help at social benefits, don't break the law, etc". In this they are right: being an atheist does not guarantee you will be more evil.

However, you're asking what I, or my fellow believers, would do if (it were possible) I gained a proof of God's non-existence. I like to think through the logical consequences of a belief, and here are two conclusions that flow from atheism:
1. Life is meaningless
2. There is no objective right and wrong

These two truths, fully accepted, would flow the most inescapable despair. So how would my actions change? Well, what happens when someone meets insurmountable despair, and a realisation that their actions have no true consequences beyond the immediate outcomes of this life? They will either kill themselves, or live lives of self-serving evil.

Most atheists I meet do not accept these consequences of their beliefs. They are eager to show the world that atheists can be good. This is true, but it's not the point. The question is not, "can an atheist do good?", but rather, "what reason does the atheist have for doing good?". Without any meaning for life, and no objective moral values, there is no reason. Even self-interest is an arbitrary and pointless goal, though the most naturally appealing.

The popular atheists of our day - those you see commonly mentioned like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, etc - do not recognise this, or at least do not mention it. But their intellectual predecessors did. Nietzsche saw that the death of God was a thing of horror, not liberation, and is a deed far beyond us (The Parable of the Madman).

Despair, and a loss of *everything* that matters, is what comes from atheism. Without immortality and God, all is meangless.

I know most atheists who read this, you will be thinking that you experience no despair, and you feel your life has meaning - whether external to you, or conceived by yourself. But though you may feel that way, you have no right to think that. I have a mind capable of reasoning, and it is as clear as daylight that this meaningless would flow from a rejection of God's existence. That is the conclusion I would be forced, against my deepest convictions, to accept. Most atheists do not accept it - and this is because you know that life has meaning, and that some things are wrong. You may intellectually deny it, but you know it is true. And in this way you borrow concepts to which you have no entitlement, concepts which depend utterly on God.

Thankfully, God does exist, and life has meaning. The deepest convictions of our soul here are true - when we sense that our lives have meaning, that some things just are wrong, we are not mistaken. We are drawing on truths which have their foundation in God. If you think that life has meaning, you too ought to believe God exists. If you think that I do wrong if I am to take what belongs to you, or to enslave your family, or murder you or loved ones, then you ought to believe God exists.

Apolloe said:

Hi,

Atheist's in my experience are often disturbed or annoyed with the apparent assumption of the Christian that atheists are "without law", and the worst of people. Atheists typically counter this view by saying something like, "I'm nice to people, give to charity, help at social benefits, don't break the law, etc". In this they are right: being an atheist does not guarantee you will be more evil.

However, you're asking what I, or my fellow believers, would do if (it were possible) I gained a proof of God's non-existence. I like to think through the logical consequences of a belief, and here are two conclusions that flow from atheism:
1. Life is meaningless
2. There is no objective right and wrong

These two truths, fully accepted, would flow the most inescapable despair. So how would my actions change? Well, what happens when someone meets insurmountable despair, and a realisation that their actions have no true consequences beyond the immediate outcomes of this life? They will either kill themselves, or live lives of self-serving evil.

Most atheists I meet do not accept these consequences of their beliefs. They are eager to show the world that atheists can be good. This is true, but it's not the point. The question is not, "can an atheist do good?", but rather, "what reason does the atheist have for doing good?". Without any meaning for life, and no objective moral values, there is no reason. Even self-interest is an arbitrary and pointless goal, though the most naturally appealing.

The popular atheists of our day - those you see commonly mentioned like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, etc - do not recognise this, or at least do not mention it. But their intellectual predecessors did. Nietzsche saw that the death of God was a thing of horror, not liberation, and is a deed far beyond us (The Parable of the Madman).

Despair, and a loss of *everything* that matters, is what comes from atheism. Without immortality and God, all is meangless.

I know most atheists who read this, you will be thinking that you experience no despair, and you feel your life has meaning - whether external to you, or conceived by yourself. But though you may feel that way, you have no right to think that. I have a mind capable of reasoning, and it is as clear as daylight that this meaningless would flow from a rejection of God's existence. That is the conclusion I would be forced, against my deepest convictions, to accept. Most atheists do not accept it - and this is because you know that life has meaning, and that some things are wrong. You may intellectually deny it, but you know it is true. And in this way you borrow concepts to which you have no entitlement, concepts which depend utterly on God.

Thankfully, God does exist, and life has meaning. The deepest convictions of our soul here are true - when we sense that our lives have meaning, that some things just are wrong, we are not mistaken. We are drawing on truths which have their foundation in God. If you think that life has meaning, you too ought to believe God exists. If you think that I do wrong if I am to take what belongs to you, or to enslave your family, or murder you or loved ones, then you ought to believe God exists.

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Great post! When I was in my teens and very early twenties I thought, hey who cares if there is a God or not. I can be good and not worry about meaning. But as I approached the age of 22 I was beginning to be deeply troubled by the lack of meaning in my life. I was not extremely depressed but extremely distressed. I would wake up in the middle of the night with a horrendous feeling of meaninglessness to everything I ever ventured to do. I also had a vague intuition that there was a God though I would never admit it. I would ask him to show me the meaning of my life and prove to me he exists so (yes I was probably worse than most atheists- extremely demonized) I would stop blaspheming him and truly in my heart believe. I planned suicide in 2004 while driving to school. Initially I was going to do it very soon but then I had a bright idea, give myself 5 years- like I said above. Thank God I did that. There was a day when I was so upset I was screaming in my car at myself, telling myself there was no reason to live. I was driving down the highway at maybe 60 and an accident happened right in front of me I was almost involved in it- I stopped within inches of the car in the accident. I realized at that minute I didn't want to die. I also realized that there definitely was a God. That was my first convincing moment of belief. Nevertheless I was so demon-possessed I was still blaspheming. I was also still unsure about the meaning of my life but I stopped thinking about immediate suicide. The events of my life to follow were extraordinary. Of course they could be dismissed as schizophrenia and even I'm not sure that they aren't truly what schizophrenia is- something different than an illness. This experience brought me to absolute 100% certainty that there is a God and an extremely evil satan and that their powers are apparently similar to an uninitiated viewer. It takes a lot of faith to differentiate between them or even see that there are powers beyond nature and I am very thankful that God has given me a measure of faith at all. I could have killed myself well before my date in april 2009 if I didn't have this horrendous yet life-affirming experience. If any of you saw what I saw, experienced what I experienced you'd probably be even more religious than I am. There is no question AT ALL that there is a God. You are all fooling yourselves if you don't believe in him and will be very sorry. Laugh now but not only does exist but knows your motivations and secrets and every little thing that ever enters your mind. He made it very clear to me that he is in complete control- yet not a micromanager- of every single thing that ever takes place and that there is absolutely no hiding place or refuge from his noetic realm. You are all in his mind at all times every single atom of your constitution is in his knowledge. If one electron turned right or left in its orbit he is aware. What I'm saying is our very existence and function is entirely at his mercy down to the deepest most physical level and even below that. So please rest assured that your rationalizations and explanations for why you believe, im sorry to say are all foolishness and self deception. I know where you're coming from when you say you can't believe in him formally but you are fooling yourselves when you don't even try to believe.So ask God to make you believe if you have any doubt about your stance against him. I think he'll go to the ends of the earth to help you if you do.

Apolloe said:

I like to think through the logical consequences of a belief, and here are two conclusions that flow from atheism:
1. Life is meaningless
2. There is no objective right and wrong

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I'm an atheist. I reject both conclusions. They don't actually flow from atheism.

"what reason does the atheist have for doing good?"

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The fulfillment of their lives, and this is its own reward.

But their intellectual predecessors did. Nietzsche saw that the death of God was a thing of horror, not liberation, and is a deed far beyond us (The Parable of the Madman).

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What Nietzsche saw is that unless atheists can come up with alternative meanings, since Christian ones won't do any longer, then this is the likely cultural result. He didn't see this as inevitable.

Despair, and a loss of *everything* that matters, is what comes from atheism. Without immortality and God, all is meangless.

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And this conclusion is completely negated by my personal experience.

I know most atheists who read this, you will be thinking that you experience no despair, and you feel your life has meaning - whether external to you, or conceived by yourself. But though you may feel that way, you have no right to think that.

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Yes, in fact I do.

I have a mind capable of reasoning

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So do I! We are on an even playing field.

and it is as clear as daylight that this meaningless would flow from a rejection of God's existence.

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I can understand how you would think so. But think again. It is as clear as daylight to me that this is not the case.

That is the conclusion I would be forced, against my deepest convictions, to accept.

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Then don't become an atheist. It doesn't sound like you can handle it. Then again, you might surprise yourself.

It's very easy to be pessimistic about atheism safe behind the walls of theism. But if you were to become an atheist, you might find your options greater than you had pessimistically thought.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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maybenotcrazy, thankyou for that story. I think most, if not all, people do know that God exists. With an open mind, everyone is capable of realising this truth, because the knowledge of it is within us already. As Paul also said,
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened" - Romans 1:20-21.
This knowledge is readily available to all.
I have accepted that God exists for all my life. You mentioned that before you met God, you would wake in the night with a "horrendous feeling of meaninglessness". I have only had one day in my life where I woke up in the morning, and felt something close to that. It was a brief moment, and it passed. It was absurd, and made no sense to me why I even had that feeling at that moment. For me, I can intellectually see that despair would flow from atheism, but understanding what that is like is far from my ability to comprehend. So thankyou again for your story.

Eudaimonist, thanks for your thoughts. You were quick to say that my conclusion is negated by your personal experience, but you should note two things:
1. That particular conclusion was the logical outcome - in many cases it is not the actual outcome, because atheists like yourselves don't think deeply about the consequences of your beliefs
2. I anticipated your response, and even wrote on it. Instead of negating my views, you have merely rejected them

And so, you say,

I'm an atheist. I reject both conclusions. They don't actually flow from atheism.

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If you reject both conclusions, then you are saying you believe the following first two propositions, and that they are compatible with the third one:
1. Life is meaningful
2. Objective moral values and duties exist
3. God does not exist

I invite you to explain how propositions 1 and 2 are, or can be, true on atheism, and not incompatible with 3.

To help you see why this is a problem, I will use a common formulation of the argument from morality:
4. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
6. Therefore, God exists (from premises 2 and 4)

Clearly, if this argument works, you hold an inconsistent set of beliefs. 2,3, 4 & 6 are contradictory. But 4 seems like a *very* plausible premise, and indeed many atheists accept it is true. Without an unchanging, eternal being in which to ground morality, there can be no objective moral values and duties. You must show how 4 is mistaken, if you want to continue to hold premises 2-3.

Regarding meaning, this is obviously false. If God does not exist, and we are not immortal, then life cannot have meaning. One day, believes the atheist, the universe will be a sea of black holes that will consume all matter, and following that it will be a soup of elementary materials that do not bond together. A lifeless soup, empty of anything bigger than an atom, if I recall correctly. Or the universe will collapse, and nothing of this life will be remembered or have any affect on what is to follow (if anything). What are humans? An accidental byproduct of evolution, a mere speck on the story of history. As a speck we came, a speck will we pass. Will the universe care that we composed a beautiful symphony? Will it remember that we were kind to our neighbour? Will the black holes that consume us praise our genious in understanding how they work? No. All will pass away into nothing, forgotten forever, with no eternal meaning. Ultimately, it will not matter if you were kind or cruel to your neighbour, if you wrote songs that pleased ears or cause people to block them, or if you had any children or not. How could this not be more obvious? One day, all of us humans will cease to exist, must the atheist believe. It is most clear that life is meaningless for the athiest. And if you think life is meaningful, then you hold another contradictory belief:

7. If God does not exist, life has no meaning
8. Therefore, God exists (from premises 1 and 7)

Any meaning you can devise will be transitory. If you say that you give life its own meaning, then you're not talking about the same thing as me. I'm not referring to an internal illusion you devise for your own comfort. I'm talking about whether life has *actual* meaning. Your personal meaning and mine may differ, and we can't both be right - but we can both be wrong. A personal meaning to life will not do. It might give you some false comfort - but when we reflect on the ultimate bleak nature of reality, it will quickly be seen as a joke.

Then don't become an atheist. It doesn't sound like you can handle it.

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Another possibility is that I am right, and recognise things about your beliefs that you either refuse to, or cannot. Then it's not a question of whether someone can handle atheism, but whether atheism is true.

I think realistically, in most Christians lives, not much would change, unless all your income came from clergy work.

You would suffer tremendously emotionally but in the absence of a spiritual realm, like most emotional trauma, the pain would most likely subside.

Then again, this could be absolutely devastating for some people.

My point, I suppose, is that as long as you have a method of paying for your physical means, nothing would change.

Hi The Nihilst,

I didn't say everything has to last forever, but rather that without God and immortality, life has no meaning. You tell me - one day, according to the atheists, there will be no minds, no intelligences to comprehend the mysteries of the universe. No minds to recognise the great works done, to condemn the evil actions perpetrated. There will be just nothing. When the sun consumes all life on this planet, and the universe is swallowed in black holes - at that point, what meaning will life have? The answer is, none.

And if it has none then, it has none overall. Even if for a brief moment it has meaning, that isn't anywhere sufficient to give it meaning overall. As I wrote above, who will remember our actions? Will the stars praise our knowledge, or will galaxies remember that we loved our neighbours? Will the planets judge us for our crimes against each other?

No. Without immortality, and without God, there is no meaning, nothing that will matter.

If you think life has meaning, then you owe us an account of how that is possible given atheism. For as far as I can see, all will come to nothing, and carries no ultimate meaning.