What would bother you more?

[faroukfarouk]

It is a mistake to believe that 'probation' is closed with our death, that if we don't repent during our lifetime we are doomed to eternal death.

All will have a chance to repent in the White Throne Judgment period; killers and victims. Does that make a difference to you regarding the topic?

There is a great gulf fixed after death (Luke 16.19-31).

 

[Non sequitur]

Been here long?

I've seen people be against the death penalty, but your question doesn't completely deal with. Also, it's binary.

Love to hear someones explanation on why they favor the innocents, though.

Are you sure the death of criminals would bother you more?

Yeah. Conflated some things in my mind.

Death of innocents would bother me more.

 

[celestialpearl]

It is a mistake to believe that 'probation' is closed with our death, that if we don't repent during our lifetime we are doomed to eternal death.

This assumes that death, by any means or by anyone, prior to repentance, will e us of God's promise of eternal life. If true this would reveal a grotesque side of God's character.

All will have a chance to repent in the White Throne Judgment period; killers and victims. Does that make a difference to you regarding the topic?

Well, as I said my personal feelings empathize more with the innocents and in considering the viewpoint that all will have the chance to repent in the White Throne Judgement period, that hasn't changed.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well, as I said my personal feelings empathize more with the innocents and in considering the viewpoint that all will have the chance to repent in the White Throne Judgement period, that hasn't changed.

I think we have to remember that now is the time to repent.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think we have to remember that now is the time to repent.

God has called "all men everywhere" to repentance, but the door isn't closed to life until judgment day, which occurs after the "first" death.

 

[faroukfarouk]

God has called "all men everywhere" to repentance, but the door isn't closed to life until judgment day, which occurs after the "first" death.

In the light of Luke 16.19-31, I would see that now is the time to repent, rather than waiting until after death.

 

[miamited]

I'm not stating an opinion on the death penalty. My own personal feelings are bothered more by innocent people being killed. In regards to a biblical standpoint though...assuming the innocents killed are christians and therefore have eternal life, I would be bothered by the executions as I'm guessing they wouldn't have had the chance to repent. Hope that makes sense.

Hi CP,

Having some small smattering of involvement in the prison system here in the U.S., I don't believe that any criminal that receives the death penalty doesn't have the opportunity to accept God's mercy. No criminal given the death penalty goes straight from the courtroom in which they were sentenced to the death chamber. It generally takes years before a convicted criminal is actually put to death today. Unlike perhaps the days of yore when a criminal was convicted and pretty much the next day or two was hanged at the gallows or shot before a firing squad.

In pretty much all the prisons that I have visited, there is likely some attempt by christian men and women to attend to these convicts and present to them the gospel of salvation. Now, many convicts won't go to these services or meetings, but that's on them. The opportunity is there. For a convicted killer to not know that christians were ministering in their prison, over the years that they would sit in prison awaiting the fulfillment of their sentence, really is quite unbelievable. That even knowing that such things are happening, but choosing not to take up the opportunity to listen is another matter.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[celestialpearl]

Hi CP,

Having some small smattering of involvement in the prison system here in the U.S., I don't believe that any criminal that receives the death penalty doesn't have the opportunity to accept God's mercy. No criminal given the death penalty goes straight from the courtroom in which they were sentenced to the death chamber. It generally takes years before a convicted criminal is actually put to death today. Unlike perhaps the days of yore when a criminal was convicted and pretty much the next day or two was hanged at the gallows or shot before a firing squad.

In pretty much all the prisons that I have visited, there is likely some attempt by christian men and women to attend to these convicts and present to them the gospel of salvation. Now, many convicts won't go to these services or meetings, but that's on them. The opportunity is there. For a convicted killer to not know that christians were ministering in their prison, over the years that they would sit in prison awaiting the fulfillment of their sentence, really is quite unbelievable. That even knowing that such things are happening, but choosing not to take up the opportunity to listen is another matter.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Thank you for the info, I hadn't considered the points you bring up.
Another thought comes to mind for me though... Who are we to decide when they've had enough chances?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank you for the info, I hadn't considered the points you bring up.
Another thought comes to mind for me though... Who are we to decide when they've had enough chances?

I think we need to remember that the wheels of temporal justice are not controlled by preachers and people involved in witness; but that God is sovereign in both areas.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In the light of Luke 16.19-31, I would see that now is the time to repent, rather than waiting until after death.

That would be best, yes.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi CP,

Having some small smattering of involvement in the prison system here in the U.S., I don't believe that any criminal that receives the death penalty doesn't have the opportunity to accept God's mercy. No criminal given the death penalty goes straight from the courtroom in which they were sentenced to the death chamber. It generally takes years before a convicted criminal is actually put to death today. Unlike perhaps the days of yore when a criminal was convicted and pretty much the next day or two was hanged at the gallows or shot before a firing squad.

In pretty much all the prisons that I have visited, there is likely some attempt by christian men and women to attend to these convicts and present to them the gospel of salvation. Now, many convicts won't go to these services or meetings, but that's on them. The opportunity is there. For a convicted killer to not know that christians were ministering in their prison, over the years that they would sit in prison awaiting the fulfillment of their sentence, really is quite unbelievable. That even knowing that such things are happening, but choosing not to take up the opportunity to listen is another matter.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

They just aren't called no matter how much effort by prisoner ministries. John 6:44.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Am I correct in assuming this?

No

 

[miamited]

Thank you for the info, I hadn't considered the points you bring up.
Another thought comes to mind for me though... Who are we to decide when they've had enough chances?

Hi CP,

Well, I think you're now moving away from this having anything to do with the death penalty. We are not to judge who has had enough time, if by that we believe that everyone, given enough time, will always take advantage of God's mercy. Your initial question was whether they would have the opportunity to take advantage of God's mercy. I think it quite obvious that if anyone dies without the mercy of God, then they didn't have enough time even if they die peacefully in their sleep at the age of 100. But God's law doesn't make provision for such a question. His law says that there are certain crimes for which a community can take the life of one of their own. He doesn't add to that law that, once they are found guilty of such a crime, we then need to exert all our efforts to tell them about Him.

I believe that if we administer the law of man in accordance with His law, then we are not committing sin. I honestly don't recall Jesus making any claim or statement to the Roman or Jewish authorities that they were committing any sin in putting to death the other two men on the day of his death. While we know that he did speak to the two men, he never made mention that they were being put to death unfairly.

Now, we don't follow God's law in many of our laws. We don't, for example, put fornicators to death even though God's law said that was allowable, even required, of His people Israel. But, just because man's law doesn't follow God's law in every point, doesn't make the places where we do follow God's law a sin. Further, we really don't, as a general rule, put murderers to death. There are thousands of murders committed in this nation every year. There were 20 people executed in 2016. Even before all this hue and cry being raised against capital punishment, murderers weren't likely to receive the death penalty unless you go back more than 100 years. The death penalty, for the last few decades, has generally only been given to people who commit some, as we see it, heinous act of murder.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I can't say what "bothers" me more. Either way, 59 people I don't know are dead. I don't know if they are guilty or innocent actually. I don't believe many adults are all that innocent.

As for the death penalty, I don't have a problem with it and would expand it to include other crimes than simply murder like attempted murder and rape - whether against adults or children. Bring back the firing squad & the guillotine.

I do have an issue with our justice system- the death penalty should require irrefutable physical evidence and justice should be fairly and equitably applied.

 

[celestialpearl]

Hi CP,

Well, I think you're now moving away from this having anything to do with the death penalty. We are not to judge who has had enough time, if by that we believe that everyone, given enough time, will always take advantage of God's mercy. Your initial question was whether they would have the opportunity to take advantage of God's mercy. I think it quite obvious that if anyone dies without the mercy of God, then they didn't have enough time even if they die peacefully in their sleep at the age of 100. But God's law doesn't make provision for such a question. His law says that there are certain crimes for which a community can take the life of one of their own. He doesn't add to that law that, once they are found guilty of such a crime, we then need to exert all our efforts to tell them about Him.

I believe that if we administer the law of man in accordance with His law, then we are not committing sin. I honestly don't recall Jesus making any claim or statement to the Roman or Jewish authorities that they were committing any sin in putting to death the other two men on the day of his death. While we know that he did speak to the two men, he never made mention that they were being put to death unfairly.

Now, we don't follow God's law in many of our laws. We don't, for example, put fornicators to death even though God's law said that was allowable, even required, of His people Israel. But, just because man's law doesn't follow God's law in every point, doesn't make the places where we do follow God's law a sin. Further, we really don't, as a general rule, put murderers to death. There are thousands of murders committed in this nation every year. There were 20 people executed in 2016. Even before all this hue and cry being raised against capital punishment, murderers weren't likely to receive the death penalty unless you go back more than 100 years. The death penalty, for the last few decades, has generally only been given to people who commit some, as we see it, heinous act of murder.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

You make interesting and rational points. It gives me a lot to think about! Thank you

 

[miamited]

Hi PS,

You wrote:

I do have an issue with our justice system- the death penalty should require irrefutable physical evidence and justice should be fairly and equitably applied.

I also agree with that and also agree that we need to be somewhat more aggressive in applying the death penalty. Some states have taken such possibility out of the equation altogether. I agree that's a bad idea.

One of the problems with the death penalty being applied so hit or miss is that it really doesn't have the deterrent effect that I believe was God's purpose in making such a law to begin with. I believe that God gave such law so that for such crimes people need to know that they were going to die for doing such things. I believe that if our entire society knew without a doubt that killing someone else would surely bring about their own death, that many might think twice before committing such an act. But the law against murder that we have here in the U.S. doesn't provide that deterrent effect. Most everyone knows that if they commit murder they might have to do a few years in prison and even that depends on the capabilities of their attorney. According to 'straightdope. com, the average time spent in prison in the U.S. for the crime of murder is 71 months. That's about 5 years. So it becomes a roll of the dice. Commit murder, and if I get caught, I'll likely wind up doing a few years in prison.

It would be interesting to me to see what happens to our murder rate if capital punishment were the nearly universal sentence for murder. Further, if we were consistent in applying the death penalty, we would at least stop a single offender from committing more murders upon their release from prison. There are actually quite a few people who are found guilty of murder, do their time, and repeat that same offense after release.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The key to reducing crime is a program of restitution and rehabilitation. You have to ponder this for a moment.


(Off topic but I thought I'd toss this in there for laughs.)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi PS,

You wrote:


I also agree with that and also agree that we need to be somewhat more aggressive in applying the death penalty. Some states have taken such possibility out of the equation altogether. I agree that's a bad idea.

One of the problems with the death penalty being applied so hit or miss is that it really doesn't have the deterrent effect that I believe was God's purpose in making such a law to begin with. I believe that God gave such law so that for such crimes people need to know that they were going to die for doing such things. I believe that if our entire society knew without a doubt that killing someone else would surely bring about their own death, that many might think twice before committing such an act. But the law against murder that we have here in the U.S. doesn't provide that deterrent effect. Most everyone knows that if they commit murder they might have to do a few years in prison and even that depends on the capabilities of their attorney. According to 'straightdope. com, the average time spent in prison in the U.S. for the crime of murder is 71 months. That's about 5 years. So it becomes a roll of the dice. Commit murder, and if I get caught, I'll likely wind up doing a few years in prison.

It would be interesting to me to see what happens to our murder rate if capital punishment were the nearly universal sentence for murder. Further, if we were consistent in applying the death penalty, we would at least stop a single offender from committing more murders upon their release from prison. There are actually quite a few people who are found guilty of murder, do their time, and repeat that same offense after release.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

The problem with "deterrence" is that most criminals don't think they will be caught, while a few just don't care. The DP does deter them from committing more crimes however, and that alone would justify it.

 

[miamited]

The key to reducing crime is a program of restitution and rehabilitation. You have to ponder this for a moment.


(Off topic but I thought I'd toss this in there for laughs.)

Hi OWG,

Right! And just how exactly do you provide restitution for taking the life of someone's loved one? I do agree that rehabilitation is a noble goal for all criminals, but the proof seems to be that we don't really spend much time in our prisons attempting to do that. I believe that God also allows for rehabilitation and restitution for some crimes, but there are a few that even He didn't seem to allow for that.

I realize that you were speaking rather sarcastically and so I'm agreeing with you here. Just wanted to make that clear.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Dave-W]

, but the door isn't closed to life until judgment day, which occurs after the "first" death.

Nice theory. But entirely unsupported in scripture.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,​

The door is closed at physical death. THe judgement just makes it official.