What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?

[HIM]

Nobody said that the new moon is worshipped.

You claim that the new moon will exist in new heavens. But it cannot be, without sun. The definition of a new moon is a specific position of the moon between Earth and Sun. Also, its said there is no night in new heavens, so in any case, all your Bible reading put together ends in an implosion.

Because you take it literally, while its symbolic.

To says somthing is symbolic, metaphor or what not is subjective unless it has been established by God. And Time will always exist....

 

[trophy33]

To says somthing is symbolic, metaphor or what not is subjective unless it has been established by God. And Time will always exit....

You are acting like church has no knowledge whatsoever, like Bible has come to us yesterday and we cannot understand it without direct instructions of God.

If you believe so, there is no point for you to debate it. Simply wait till the end of time.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Amen! We can either take a text and it's surrounding context for what it says or we can twist it to our destruction.

Yes, I wouldn't want to argue with Who is speaking.

Happy Sabbath friend.

 

[Bob S]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

What you do to the least....

and after worship go and see al the dead bodies that worms that dwell in them. Oh, what a fine day and we will only have to endure it for around a hundred years according to Is 65 then we will pass away.

 

[HIM]

Yes, I wouldn't want to argue with who is speaking.

Happy Sabbath friend.

Happy Sabbath to you also! May our Lord God and Father continue to Guide and direct us all in the Path, Christ Jesus!

 

[Studyman]

I was asked the question on another forum, "What will happen to all those Christians who don't worship on the Sabbath?" I gave the following answer... there are some verses that give a clear answer. Here is what best applies....
Acts 17:24-30
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we unknowingly make a honest mistake, Gods grace is sufficient and He winks at our ignorance. But when we in all fullness of understanding knowingly do it.......

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


There is no Command of God, at least the God of the Bible, requiring that I "Worship God" on the 7th Day. I am to worship God every day, in my toil and work of this world during the 6 days God gave me to do so, and also in the Day that I fast from the work of this world, as instructed, and do not work, in Honor to God. There is no instruction from God to join a religious business that is constantly building and growing their business 24/7/365. Even in the verse you quoted, God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing".

What is the real difference between a religious business working 24/7 to expand their business into massive Shrines of worship, schools, healthcare, investment opportunities that call the 7th Day the Sabbath, and another religious business which behaves in the exact same manner, exact same traditions, exact same behavior, but call the 1st Day of the week the Sabbath?

They both compete for butts to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship, without which their religious business could not exist. They both promote the philosophy that their religious business is superior to the others who engage in the same practice. They both promote that salvation is only through "Their" religious business, and not the others. Doesn't the Jesus of the bible address this in Matt. 6? "Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

I wonder how God feels about a religion who uses the Sabbath Commandment as a Marketing Strategy to get men to adopt and financially support their particular religious business.

I'm all into God's Instruction in Righteousness, and God created His Sabbath for me. I cannot find any evidence where God created it as a marketing strategy to grow a religious business.

 

[HIM]

You are acting like church has no knowledge whatsoever, like Bible has come to us yesterday and we cannot understand it without direct instructions of God.

If you believe so, there is no point for you to debate it. Simply wait till the end of time.

non sequitur

 

[HIM]

There is no Command of God, at least the God of the Bible, requiring that I "Worship God" on the 7th Day.

Good to you Studyman and Happy Sabbath! ( I am sorry I forgot to have this greeting in my initial post to you and edited it in just now)

How is it one keeps the day holy? Worshipping in song, prayer, praise and doing our LORD'S bidding is keeping the day holy. This we should do. And in doing we chance not defiling it by the unholiness of a self serving nature.

I am to worship God every day, in my toil and work of this world during the 6 days God gave me to do so, and also in the Day that I fast from the work of this world, as instructed, and do not work, in Honor to God. There is no instruction from God to join a religious business that is constantly building and growing their business 24/7/365. Even in the verse you quoted, God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing".

Though we are to keep everyday Holy and our lives through Christ are to Exemplify worship and holiness. The Sabbath we are called specifically to rest from our OWN work not the Lords on the Seventh Day. For in the Lord's is rest and holiness.

Resting and keeping the day holy are two different things. Though resting on the Sabbath would be part of keeping the day holy. it is not all inclusive. The text below shows us that when it speaks of defiling the day and the punishment is death. And then states that if one works on the Sabbath they shall be cut off rather then stating that they should be put to death.

How does one keep a day Holy and not defile it? First off by keeping themselves and their house from sin. And Worshipping, praising and doing things of God help.

Exod 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

[Studyman]

The Mosaic Law was not given to us, therefore we can neither accept it nor reject it.

The Jesus of the Bible knew you would adopt and then promote to others this philosophy above, and seeing it coming, Inspired Paul to warn us. As you can see, your religion and Paul's teaching are two completely different gospels.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent "we" should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for "our" admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Unbiblical ideas. Bible gives no instructions to worship or praise God specifically on Sabbaths. It was always about the physical rest.

It was always about fasting from the world on the 7th day, which according to the Jesus "of the Bible" was made for His People.

Is. 58: 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

It is Holy To God and it is Holy to God's People.

Ex. 31: 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

But clearly it is beneath your honor, and it is not Holy to you.

Shouldn't that give a man pause?

 

[trophy33]

The Jesus of the Bible knew you would adopt and then promote to others this philosophy above, and seeing it coming, Inspired Paul to warn us. As you can see, your religion and Paul's teaching are two completely different gospels.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent "we" should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for "our" admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



It was always about fasting from the world on the 7th day, which according to the Jesus "of the Bible" was made for His People.

Is. 58: 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

It is Holy To God and it is Holy to God's People.

Ex. 31: 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

But clearly it is beneath your honor, and it is not Holy to you.

Shouldn't that give a man pause?

What church/denomination are you from?

 

[HIM]

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent "we" should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for "our" admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Amen friend!

 

[Bob S]

The only place the Sabbath command is commanded is, to the Israelites, in the old covenant. Even there it is sketchy as how it should be observed. Is 58:13 gives the Israelites a glimpse as how it was to be kept:

“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day, What is "doing as you please" mean?
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way What does "going your own way" mean?
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, What does "speaking idle words" mean"
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” Isaiah is referring only to Jews because Jacob was not the father to Gentiles.
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

If you speak idle words, like all who claim to keep Sabbath do, does that mean you have broken the Sabbath and thus you are not really keeping it? Week after week speaking idle words on Sabbath has to mean non repentance. So, if you believe you have to "keep" the Sabbath and fail every week are you any better off than all who don't believe we have to observe it? Remember the same rule applies to "going your own way" and "doing as you please".

If you use Is 58:13-14 as your guide I wonder if you, who claim to be Sabbath "keepers", are you able to keep it any better than when I tried to keep it???

 

[chrisovery]

I was asked the question on another forum, "What will happen to all those Christians who don't worship on the Sabbath?" I gave the following answer... there are some verses that give a clear answer. Here is what best applies....
Acts 17:24-30
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we unknowingly make a honest mistake, Gods grace is sufficient and He winks at our ignorance. But when we in all fullness of understanding knowingly do it.......

Our worship is everyday in everything we do. The sabbath wasn't set forth as a day of worship. But rather a day of rest. If we are in Jesus then we should be in him daily. That is our worship of him.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I was asked the question on another forum, "What will happen to all those Christians who don't worship on the Sabbath?" I gave the following answer... there are some verses that give a clear answer. Here is what best applies....
Acts 17:24-30
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we unknowingly make a honest mistake, Gods grace is sufficient and He winks at our ignorance. But when we in all fullness of understanding knowingly do it.......

Can you be more candid here? It is well known that those who do not keep Sabbath will have the " mark of the beast" and those who do keep the Sabbath will have the " seal of God" according to SDA. Let us reason from this point and begin to prove it through scripture. Be blessed.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe one can either observe Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath in keeping the day of worship. The insistence of the old covenant sabbath as the only valid one raises concerns since then such thinking seems to require that the entire law must be observed.

For ex. Christians do not observe Yom Kippur ( Leviticus 16:1-34) which requires a blood animal sacrifice ( Leviticus 16:18-19) and is stated as “a statute forever” ( Leviticus 16:31). If absolutely strict sabbath keeping is to be observed then I guess such requirements must be observed.

The Lord basically told us the law & prophets are the golden rule ( Matthew 7:12 in summation of Matthew 7:1-12). He further stated that on the 2 great commandments hang all the law & prophets ( Matthew 22:36-40). The Apostles met & determined the basic Faith requirements for the Gentiles in Acts 15:1-29 in which the spiritual & moral aspects of the law remained & the blood requirements ( like circumcision, animal blood atonement etc.) are discontinued.

The New Testament Lord’s Day is understood from early on in light of the Lord’s resurrection ( Matthew 28:1-20, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). No one is objecting to remembering the sabbath day ( Exodus 20:8-11). What is of concern is taking an exclusive position of faith that seems selective or as a problem of ignorance.

 

[Studyman]

Good to you Studyman and Happy Sabbath! ( I am sorry I forgot to have this greeting in my initial post to you and edited it in just now)

How is it one keeps the day holy? Worshipping in song, prayer, praise and doing our LORD'S bidding is keeping the day holy. This we should do. And in doing we chance not defiling it by the unholiness of a self serving nature.

My friend, the Jesus of the Bible and His Father before Him, tells me this Commandment is made for men. Not the world, not the religions of this world, not the religious businesses of this world, but for "MEN" which defines "me". Why? Why did God create this Holy Day, a Fast from this world on the 7th day of every week, "For me"?

Here is what HE tells me.

Is. 58: 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, On who my friend? Who needs the bands of wickedness loosened? Isn't it me???? Is this not why "I" must fast from the world, to loose the bands of wickedness "on me"?? And how can I help others, if I am bound by wickedness? You know I can help no one. No!! my friend, as Jesus also teaches, I must first expose, and they remove the beam from my own eye, before I can help others with their beam. I find this task an ongoing struggle, to the point where I wonder if God really needs my help to save another, and maybe HE doesn't, but would rather I work on removing my own Beam. Just a thought. Please continue with God's Word here.

to undo the heavy burdens, On whom? Is this also not "ME", to which this Commandment was specifically made for? What are the burdens placed on me by this world's religions, religious traditions, philosophies, etc. Is this not my "Cross"? You know we are surrounded by this worlds influence. God created this fast from the world, so I can dwell on His Word undisturbed and discern between righteousness which are wrought in God, and those burdens which are commandments and traditions of men. Otherwise, I will just promote the burdens of a religious sect or business I adopted.

and to let the oppressed go free, and that "ye" break every yoke? Again, I can't set someone free from a pit I have also fallen into. I can't expose a deception if I am also deceived by the same deception. The Sabbath was made for me, for the purposes detailed here and elsewhere. How can I do God's Bidding, and be a vehicle to lead men to His Truth, if I don't even Trust the tools HE gave for me in the first place? If I won't even bring myself into the Light, how can I lead others there?

Let's continue;

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him;

How can a man do these latter things, unless they first do the former? Here comes my favorite part, and the hardest part to do.

and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

The manmade shrines of worship made of wood and stone, by the hands of men, is not God's Righteousness, but men's? They are made to distract, and to keep a man from exposing himself to the Light by convincing them they are all set. They are a beacon of "Look at us, we are holy" and it is all self-serving to be seen of and heard of men. It is an ancient religious tradition and religious marketing strategy employed by this world's religions since the destruction of the tower of Babel. Jesus exposes it in Matt. 6 and 7 and elsewhere.

If the purpose of the Sabbath is to Worship in song, prayer, praise , then why did God tell Isaiah these things that were written specifically for me in this time in history? And why does God feel the Need for this Fast "Every" Week?

Though we are to keep everyday Holy and our lives through Christ are to Exemplify worship and holiness. The Sabbath we are called specifically to rest from our OWN work not the Lords on the Seventh Day. For in the Lord's is rest and holiness.

"Worshipping in song, prayer, praise and doing our LORD'S bidding is keeping the day holy".

Surely those men in Matt. 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord, did this very same thing, as well as those in Matt. 24 "Who come in Christ's Name". I am not saying these things to condemn, only in fellowship in search of Biblical Truth with relevant questions.

But what does Jesus say.

Matt. 6: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Is this not the Lord's Bidding? And if God can hear me in my dark closet, who then am I attempting to reach with my "Worshipping in song, prayer, praise"? The truth to this question is clear, but it's accepting this truth which is hard to do. It's much easier to hide oneself from his own flesh, than to answer the question honestly. Certainly it was for me in the beginning, and even now from time to time.

Food for thought my friend, thanks for the reply.

 

[Studyman]

What church/denomination are you from?

It is the same church Noah, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Daniel, David, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, The Wise men, James, Peter, Cornelius, Paul, John and all the examples of faithful men in the Holy Scriptures belonged to, in which the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, is the head, sitting at the Right Hand of God His Father and my Father, the One True God.

 

[trophy33]

It is the same church Noah, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Daniel, David, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, The Wise men, James, Peter, Cornelius, Paul, John and all the examples of faithful men in the Holy Scriptures belonged to, in which the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, is the head, sitting at the Right Hand of God His Father and my Father, the One True God.

A classic evasion used by people who are either absolutely solo or for some reason secretive about their specific theological background.

 

[Bob S]

What will happen to all of those who believe they are required to "keep" the Sabbath and fail to REALLY keep it according to Is58:13-14?

I am certainly grateful God didn't make me the judge. It appears though that those of us who do not believe we are required to observe a day or days are being judged by some who claim to keep it.

 

[Studyman]

A classic evasion used by people who are either absolutely solo or for some reason secretive about their specific theological background.

Perhaps sir, it would be prudent to actually consider what has transpired here. You are furthering the popular philosophy of this world's religions, which promotes to others that the Law and the Prophets who promoted them, were not written to "Us", meaning your particular adopted religious business or sect. I pointed out to you that according to Paul, the Law and the Prophets who promoted them were written "Specifically" for the members of God's Church in this age "upon whom the ends of the world are come."

And Paul isn't the only one to profess this Truth about God.

1 Peter 1: 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore (Because of these Truths of God) gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 "But as" he which hath called you is holy, so (in like manner) be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, (For "OUR" Admonition) Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I asked of you, doesn't it give you pause that the religious sect or business that you have adopted, and whose philosophies you are now promoting to others, are almost exactly the opposite of what is actually taught by the known Members of God's Church, the Body of Christ, and recording in your own Bible as well as mine?

And you completely evaded the entire issue, ignored speaking to your own preaching, in order to ask me what religious sect or business I have adopted.

And when I gave you the truth from my heart, knowing that "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, "dwelleth not in temples made with hands"; Neither is worshipped "with men's hands", as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;"

You accuse me of being evasive, even dishonest.

I was born into the same world as you. A world in which dozens and dozens of various religious business and sects exist, all promoting their own righteousness and philosophies. We are both born into a world in which the overriding religious tradition is to choose one religion, out of the smorgasbord, adopt its philosophies, (In your case, that the Law and Prophets were not written for us), and grow the religious business by converting others to the same religion.

My Mom and her family were AOG. I adopted the Baptist religion when my girl was born. But when I studied for myself, as I am instructed to do, and when I follow the Christ, "of the Bible" who said to "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness", I found a different teaching. And therefore, being called to "Come out of her" as it is also written, I left manmade religious labels and businesses, and placed my trust on the Word of God "Which became Flesh". A Word which has remained the same since before my fathers and their fathers were even born.

I have not been secretive at all. I know several men with families who have also placed their faith and Belief in the Word of God, which became Flesh. I am not alone, the teaching I am addressing comes for the Congregation of the Church of God, in whose minds the Spirit of Christ existed. Every verse I post, and ask questions about, pertain to Word's which exist in your own Bible.

These things are true. Your belief or unbelief matter nothing. But shouldn't we speak to such things?