What week?

[gwynedd1]

Your point?

Israel, as a nation, did not accept the New Covenant and still don't. They will, though.

My point is there were those that did accept it but only a remnant as prophesied in Zechariah 13. The apostate Israelites you speak of were destroyed in 66-70 AD and the Simon Ben Kokba revolt in 132-135 AD.

What passes now for "Israel" is not the ancient Hebrew religion at all and known as modern Judaism . This not only has no temple system but also is comprised of many races there were under the Khazar empire. It also includes many medieval additions and distortions of the Tanach including the Talmud and Cabala. There is no priesthood. Its a dead faith.
There are certainly remnants of the physical seed of Israel but most probably do not even know who they are.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

My point is there were those that did accept it but only a remnant as prophesied in Zechariah 13. The apostate Israelites you speak of were destroyed in 66-70 AD and the Simon Ben Kokba revolt in 132-135 AD.

What passes now for "Israel" is not the ancient Hebrew religion at all and known as modern Judaism . This not only has no temple system but also is comprised of many races there were under the Khazar empire. It also includes many medieval additions and distortions of the Tanach including the Talmud and Cabala. There is no priesthood. Its a dead faith.
There are certainly remnants of the physical seed of Israel but most probably do not even know who they are.

And what of the promises to regather them and to establish authority on earth in Jerusalem through Israel?

Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.”
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”


That hasn't happened yet. They are looking for their Messiah even now, and, even though they don't know Him yet, they most certainly will!

 

[Natman]

And what of the promises to regather them and to establish authority on earth in Jerusalem through Israel?

Zec 8:19 - Zec 8:23

That hasn't happened yet. They are looking for their Messiah even now, and, even though they don't know Him yet, they most certainly will!

Yes, this has already happend, in around 516BC.

Zechariah was written around 520BC, prophesying the near pending events from then until 516BC, the completion of the rebuilding of the second Temple by Zerubbabel under Persian rule.

Zechariah is not speaking of a Jerusalem that is 2500 years in the future, but a Jerusalem that is only a couple of years into his own future.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Ok, I found your post!

Now, tell me why you don't think that the anointed one in Daniel 9 is speaking of Jesus.

In a literal and historical sense as it is represented there it is not. Now it is acceptable to use not only the literal sense but also what it could be pointing to in a symbolical sense and there i do agree that you are right! Now, i'm always very careful when interpreting symbolically because we can truly speculate a ton by so doing. The only thing we shouldn't do when taking facts yet future to a symbolic fulfillment is become dogmatic.

From my perspective, however slight, it seems like the angel is telling Daniel what would happen to the 2nd and 3rd temples. History tells us when the 2nd temple was built, when Christ came and died (and rose), and when the 2nd temple was destroyed, and that there will be a third temple from which the sacrifices are ended and an abomination is set up. Now, knowing that these are the events that Daniel 9 is speaking of, why wouldn't the anointed one be Jesus?

Again literally no, yet symbolically Yes. Now in the symbolical sense it could be taken to a third destruction ofcourse, that is what i fully believe that a third Temple will be erected in which the sacrifices will resume and a wicked man will sit there pretending to be God and demanding worship. Yes, i believe the Temple will be desecrated a third time. Now in the literal sense the angel is not speaking about a third desecration but rather the literal events relevant to Daniels prayers and the seventy years of captivity and an anointed that was to be raised literally then, not centuries later. This event literally cannot be taken as Yeshua simply because after this anointed was cut-off the Hebrew literally says he ceased to be, and was no more ect. That is why in a literal sense this anointed cannot be Yeshua; Now using symbolism we certainly can apply it, i don't have a problem with that!

The annointed one in these passages comes and is cut off before the destruction of the 2nd temple.


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (483 years from command to restore and build Jerusalem until Jesus comes and dies, right? But why the division of the weeks between 49 (seven weeks) and the 62 weeks? Is there another time gap?)


Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (about 30AD), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (2nd temple- 70AD); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (still speaking of the 2nd temple)

Dan 9:27 And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many (beast with pact with 10 kings) for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Sacrifice and oblation - that means there's another, 3rd, future temple in order for there to be sacrifices)

This literally was fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes. Now this could also have a symbolic implication to the second Beit Hamikdash which was destroyed in 70 AD as you correctly mentioned.

When people say the 70 weeks are fulfilled together, all at once, with no gaps of time between the 70 weeks, I wonder why. why do they have to be fulfilled all at once? It's like God is saying, "Here's 2500 years of time and 490 of those years of time are going to be for the fulfillment of this decree. Once this decree is complete, the 70 weeks or 490 years of time are complete."

It's like a time-share. You get two weeks a year to stay in your time-share but it doesn't have to be all at once, it could be a week now and a week later. Ha ha ( I know, weird analogy)

Actually lots of preterist believe that all this was fulfilled only in a literal sense. But if that was correct were is our expectation, i mean we would have no further prophecies pending! There are two methods of interpretation which i use, one is the literal and the other is the symbolical; i think all of these events had partial fulfillments in the literal, but they also have a symbolical reference which a lot of it is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That hasn't happened yet. They are looking for their Messiah even now, and, even though they don't know Him yet, they most certainly will!

And it won't be pretty for them for what they did to their "Passover" sacrifice.

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck, in those/ekeinaiV <1565>, the days.
For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath/orgh <3709> in the People, These/toutw <5129>";

Revelation 16:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: Be falling upon us! and hide Us! from face of the One-sitting upon the throne, and from the Wrath/orghV <3709> of the Lamb-kin
17 that came the day, the great, of the wrath of Him and who is able to stand.

 

[gwynedd1]

And what of the promises to regather them and to establish authority on earth in Jerusalem through Israel?

Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.”
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”


That hasn't happened yet. They are looking for their Messiah even now, and, even though they don't know Him yet, they most certainly will!

Hello HisdaughterJen,

Which part of the book of Hebrews does not measure up to your standards? What is confusing? What does not agree that the earthly Jerusalem is meaningless to Christianity?


Hebrews 12

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assembly* of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

[gwynedd1]

I
This literally was fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes. Now this could also have a symbolic implication to the second Beit Hamikdash which was destroyed in 70 AD as you correctly mentioned.

Hello YeshuamySalvation,


Could you please tell me this time line in the 70 weeks? This could not possibly be Antiochus Epiphanes for two reasons. The Seleucid time line was nowhere near the end of the 70 weeks with any possible starting date and the event that clearly matches this event shows a significant passage of time after the description in chapter 11.


Here is a notable gap before the end which is clearly far worse as stated in Daniel 12.

Daniel 11

29 ‘At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but this time it shall not be as it was before. 30For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall lose heart and withdraw. He shall be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. He shall turn back and pay heed to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt-offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate. 32He shall seduce with intrigue those who violate the covenant; but the people who are loyal to their God shall stand firm and take action. 33The wise among the people shall give understanding to many; for some days, however, they shall fall by sword and flame, and suffer captivity and plunder. 34When they fall victim, they shall receive a little help, and many shall join them insincerely. 35Some of the wise shall fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and cleansed,* until the time of the end, for there is still an interval until the time appointed.

I also find it to be sloppy to accrue this edict to be the rebuilding of the city which is the first possible. Even if it were correct it would still be nowhere near the end of the 70 weeks.

Ezra 1

2 ‘Thus says King Cyrus of Persia: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem in Judah

This is the temple not the city. This is plainly seen throughout Ezra. Nehemiah was a continuation of Ezra and Nehemiah was originally called second Ezra. It was the 20th year of Artaxerxes that carried the edict to rebuild the city and the wall.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Hello YeshuamySalvation,


Could you please tell me this time line in the 70 weeks? This could not possibly be Antiochus Epiphanes for two reasons. The Seleucid time line was nowhere near the end of the 70 weeks with any possible starting date and the event that clearly matches this event shows a significant passage of time after the description in chapter 11.

Ok, lets take a look at Daniel 9:25-27

25Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

The Hebrew does not unite these weeks as seventy full weeks at once. Rather what it does is that it separates them in sections of times. It all starts from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed shall be seven weeks of time AND sixty two weeks of time; then we have the streets being built again and the wall. This does not mean that literally we should take weeks of time to mean years here, no such grammatical rule exists in the Hebrew. Times are indeed periods of time in history in which different events are meant to take place.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end thereof shall be with a flood, and until the end of the war desolations are determined.

And after those sixty two weeks the anointed shall be cut-off. The Hebrew does say after the sixty two weeks not the 69th week as many suggest. Now we notice that there is a prince that shall come at another time in history; The people of this prince were to destroy the city and the Santuary.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Now we see that a covenant is confirm with many for one week of time in history. We see that he causes the sacrifice to cease at this point of time. Not only did Antiochus Epiphanes put an end to daily sacrifice, he set up abominations by erecting an idol of the pagan god Zeus and sacrificing impure animals in God's holy Beit Hamikdash.

I also find it to be sloppy to accrue this edict to be the rebuilding of the city which is the first possible. Even if it were correct it would still be nowhere near the end of the 70 weeks.

That is because you are taking the seventy weeks to mean weeks of years instead of literal weeks of times in history! Now does Daniel 9 also apply to the destruction of the Second Beit Hamikdash. Ofcourse we can certainly use the[ Derush], the allegorical method of interpretation and this passage will not only apply to 70AD, but also to the destruction and desecration of the third Beit Hamikdash. And it will continue happening as such until Yeshua returns.

Ezra 1

This is the temple not the city. This is plainly seen throughout Ezra. Nehemiah was a continuation of Ezra and Nehemiah was originally called second Ezra. It was the 20th year of Artaxerxes that carried the edict to rebuild the city and the wall.

Did i ever deny that friend?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Well, if we look at all the scriptures that refer to an abomination of desolation, including the one that Christ mentioned, then it cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes because that happened a couple of hundred years before Christ.

Mat 24:15 &#8220;So when you see standing in the holy place &#8216;the abomination that causes desolation,&#8217; spoken of through the prophet Daniel&#8211;let the reader understand&#8211;
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.




So, as of about 30AD, when Jesus said these words, the Abomination of Desolation was yet to occur.

Now, the 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70AD. There certainly could have been an A of D at that time but was it THE Abom of Des that Jesus referred to?

The Abom of Des is committed by the future ruler out of the people who destroy the temple, the 2nd temple.

This future ruler stands in the temple of God in the end times and proclaims that he is God. He abolishes the daily sacrifices and commits some kinds of rebellion or abomination that causes the temple to be desolate.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Well, if we look at all the scriptures that refer to an abomination of desolation, including the one that Christ mentioned, then it cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes because that happened a couple of hundred years before Christ.

Mat 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.




So, as of about 30AD, when Jesus said these words, the Abomination of Desolation was yet to occur.

Now, the 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70AD. There certainly could have been an A of D at that time but was it THE Abom of Des that Jesus referred to?

The Abom of Des is committed by the future ruler out of the people who destroy the temple, the 2nd temple.

This future ruler stands in the temple of God in the end times and proclaims that he is God. He abolishes the daily sacrifices and commits some kinds of rebellion or abomination that causes the temple to be desolate.

According to what i mentioned previously, Mat. 24:15 wouldn't contradict if it is understood as a re-application of a previously fulfilled prophecy recasting it to the future. This is not strange at all, and Yeshua seems to have done it at least once before, re-applying a prophecy of Isaiah, fulfilled eight centuries before, to his own days [Mat. 13:11-15; cf. Isa. 6:9,10]!

 

[holdon]

According to what i mentioned previously, Mat. 24:15 wouldn't contradict if it is understood as a re-application of a previously fulfilled prophecy recasting it to the future. This is not strange at all, and Yeshua seems to have done it at least once before, re-applying a prophecy of Isaiah, fulfilled eight centuries before, to his own days [Mat. 13:11-15; cf. Isa. 6:9,10]!

Mt 24:15 refers back to Daniel 12:11

 

[HisdaughterJen]

According to what i mentioned previously, Mat. 24:15 wouldn't contradict if it is understood as a re-application of a previously fulfilled prophecy recasting it to the future. This is not strange at all, and Yeshua seems to have done it at least once before, re-applying a prophecy of Isaiah, fulfilled eight centuries before, to his own days [Mat. 13:11-15; cf. Isa. 6:9,10]!

Well, I agree that scripture does sometimes seem to have dual fulfillments but I don't think that is the case with the Abom of Des that Jesus referred to.

Daniel is pretty specific. Daniel and Jesus and Paul and John all speak of a future abom of des caused by a bad guy who is then destroyed by Jesus himself, even at His coming.

Isn't it possible that the devil has been trying to start that 3 1/2 years he's been promised? Everytime he seems to begin, it's thwarted without fulfilling the exact prophecy.

For example, Antiochus Epiphanes. He did a lot of what is mentioned as well as Nero and Titus but they all met their end, and under "earthly" circumstances.

The one who fulfills this prophecy will be destroyed by Jesus, supernatural power, at His coming.

Dan 8:25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.


2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.



Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.


They were thrown into the lake of fire...instantly judged. Only God can do that.

 

[gwynedd1]

Ok, lets take a look at Daniel 9:25-27

The Hebrew does not unite these weeks as seventy full weeks at once. Rather what it does is that it separates them in sections of times. It all starts from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed shall be seven weeks of time AND sixty two weeks of time; then we have the streets being built again and the wall. This does not mean that literally we should take weeks of time to mean years here, no such grammatical rule exists in the Hebrew. Times are indeed periods of time in history in which different events are meant to take place.

Hello YeshuamySalvation,


A sabbatical year was well known and most scholars agree with this. Their is no such rule that the time element provided should be ignored.

And after those sixty two weeks the anointed shall be cut-off. The Hebrew does say after the sixty two weeks not the 69th week as many suggest. Now we notice that there is a prince that shall come at another time in history; The people of this prince were to destroy the city and the Santuary.

Every translation I have seen places the 62 weeks after the seven weeks.

Now we see that a covenant is confirm with many for one week of time in history. We see that he causes the sacrifice to cease at this point of time. Not only did Antiochus Epiphanes put an end to daily sacrifice, he set up abominations by erecting an idol of the pagan god Zeus and sacrificing impure animals in God's holy Beit Hamikdash.

All described in Maccabees I. This is well known but could not be the end of the 70 weeks else we run afoul of Daniel 11 and 12. Desolations(plural) were determined. The best you could do is that date from Cyrus having only to do with the temple. 539 BC less 62 weeks comes to about 100 BC and way off Antiochus who came to power in 170 BC. What horrible thing happened some time after that? At the end of Daniel 11 we have the east border of the Roman empire with Egypt falling along with Libya and Kush but not Edom, Moab or Ammon.

(edit: corrected AD to BC for Antiocus dates)

That is because you are taking the seventy weeks to mean weeks of years instead of literal weeks of times in history! Now does Daniel 9 also apply to the destruction of the Second Beit Hamikdash. Ofcourse we can certainly use the[ Derush], the allegorical method of interpretation and this passage will not only apply to 70AD, but also to the destruction and desecration of the third Beit Hamikdash. And it will continue happening as such until Yeshua returns.

This is implied. One does not build a city in 70 weeks . The migration alone likely took months. It must be sabbatical years and there is nothing literal about it since it was known as a seven, not a week as in days.
At that time history records high expectations of the Messiah for these same reasons

 

[Natman]

That is because you are taking the seventy weeks to mean weeks of years instead of literal weeks of times in history!

YeshuamySalvation,

You are the first person I have encountered in over 33 years to make such a proposition. Every scholar I have met has stated emphatically that this is in reference to "years", not "weeks".

The Hebrew word used here is actually translated "sevens", not "weeks", which is consistent with the Hebrew notion of heptades, groups of seven years, comparable to our decades, groups of ten years. Every seven years, the Jews were supposed to allow the land to rest for one year (Lev 25:1-7). At the end of every seven sets of seven (49 years), beginning in the 50th year, was a year of Jubilee, in which all debt was to be forgiven (Lev 25:8-55).

The Hebrew does not unite these weeks as seventy full weeks at once. Rather what it does is that it separates them in sections of times.

Again, you are the first person that has proposed that each section, including the seven "seven" and the sixty-two "sevens" are not congruent, especially in light of the fact that using the conventional interpretation of the passages, everything appears to line up precisely with the beginning of the Messiah's ministry at the end of 69th "seven" from the decree to rebuild the Temple, to His being crucified (cut-off) 3.5 years later.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Well, I agree that scripture does sometimes seem to have dual fulfillments but I don't think that is the case with the Abom of Des that Jesus referred to.

Ofcourse he is not speaking about it's previous fulfillment. Yet this one does not end with the Roman Empire and the destruction of the Second Beit Hamikdash. It's final fulfillment will be with the destruction and desecration of the third Beit Hamikdash!

Daniel is pretty specific. Daniel and Jesus and Paul and John all speak of a future ab heyom of des caused by a bad guy who is then destroyed by Jesus himself, even at His coming.

Ofcourse they do, but i'm speaking of Daniel in the literal sense and events relevant there.

Isn't it possible that the devil has been trying to start that 3 1/2 years he's been promised? Everytime he seems to begin, it's thwarted without fulfilling the exact prophecy.

For example, Antiochus Epiphanes. He did a lot of what is mentioned as well as Nero and Titus but they all met their end, and under "earthly" circumstances.



The one who fulfills this prophecy will be destroyed by Jesus, supernatural power, at His coming.

Dan 8:25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

Not Antiochus; look below.

Now King Antiochus was in Ecbatana when he heard the news And swelling with anger he thought to revenge upon the Jews the injury done by them that had put him to flight. And therefore he commanded his chariot to be driven without stopping in the journey, the judgment of heaven urging him forward, because he had spoken so proudly, that he would come to Jerusalem and make it a common burying-place of the Jews.


"But the Lord, the God of Israel, that seeth all things, struck him with an incurable and invisible plague. For as soon as he ended these words, a dreadful pain in his bowels came upon him and bitter torments of the inner parts.


"And indeed very justly seeing he had tormented the bowels of others with many and new torments, albeit he by no means ceased from his malice.
"Moreover being filled with pride, breathing out fire in his anger against the Jews and commanding the matter to be hastened, it happened as he was going with violence that he fell from his chariot, so that his limbs were much pained by a grievous bruising of the body.


"Thus he that seemed to himself to command even the waves of the sea, being proud above the condition of men, and to weigh the heights of the mountains in a balance, now being cast down to the ground, was carried in a litter, bearing witness to the manifest power of God in himself.


"So that worms swarmed out of the body of this man, and whilst he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell off and the filthiness of his smell was noisome to the army.


"And the man that thought a little before he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry, for the intolerable stench. And by this means, being brought from his great pride, he began to come to the knowledge of himself, being admonished by the scourge of God, his pains increasing every moment.


"And when he himself could not now abide his own stench, he spoke thus: "It is just to be subject to God and that a mortal man should not equal himself to God."



"Then this wicked man prayed to the Lord, of whom he was not like to obtain mercy.
"Thus the murderer and blasphemer, being grievously struck, as he himself had treated others, died a miserable death in a strange country among the mountains." 2 Maccabees 9: 13, 28.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Hello YeshuamySalvation,


A sabbatical year was well known and most scholars agree with this. Their is no such rule that the time element provided should be ignored.

I undertstand Weeks of years are mentioned in Lev. 25:8 as a calculation of the Jubilee year. Can you prove that Sabbatical years are being referenced in Daniels vision? I mean you did raise a very valid point there that i have taken into consideration in the past, though i am not dogmatic about it! In any-case i am not a very good mathematician so i won't even dare to start doing calculations that perhaps are going to equate in total nonsense; though i do have an understanding of the Hebraic Mentality, language, culture and expressions, math and conjecturing are not my forte. Lets proceed to Antiochus:

[Antiochus Epiphanes]: ---
When Judas Maccabee and his men entered the temple precincts, they found the sanctuary desolate, and the altar profaned, and the gates burned up, and shrubs growing in the courts as in a forest, or in one of the mountains, yea, and the priests
chambers pulled down. Obviously, the restoration task must have taken several weeks. Legitimate priests were chosen that had not partaken in the repeated sacrilege of the previous years, the polluted altar was destroyed and a new one was erected, and the temple was cleaned.

Once the vandication of the sanctuary had been effected (notice that this has no relationship whatsoever with Yom Kippur of Lev. 16; this Maccabean rectification was similar to the one effected in the days of King Hezekiah [2 Chron. 29:5, 15-18], although the Maccabean restoration was effected in winter and the one of Hezekiah early in spring) in the morning of 25 Kisleu of the 148th year of the Seleucid era, that is, 14 December 164 BC, the sacred worship was resumed and kept for 8 days as the Festival of Lights, as a celebration for the vandication of the sanctuary (1 Mac. 4:36ff; 2 Mac. 10:1-8; Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, xii.7.6-7). All later generations have kept in Israel this Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah, and John 10:22 tells us that Yeshua our Messiah also celebrated this feast.

The time involved in the desecration has been variously estimated by our sources. For instance, 2 Mac. 10:3 speaks of just a two-year interruption, but this reckoning probably takes into account just a fragment of the desecration, which was undoubtedly longer. The chronological details of 1 Mac. 4:51-53 imply exactly three years since the first sow was sacrificed on the altar. Josephus also mentions this same three-year period (op. cit., xii.7.6).
The actual number of days that elapsed from the sacrifice of the first sow and the restoration of the regular worship was 1,094. The number of days between the erection of Zeus statue and the restoration of the sanctuary was 1,104. In any case, it is obvious that God's worship was proscribed by a kingly ruling was longer than this. In principle, it could be thought that the upper limit is set by the three years and three months mentioned by Josephus in section 7 of his preface to his Wars of the Jews, but barely a few lines below he states that..

Antiochus came upon the Jews with a large army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those who favoured Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them, without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation, for three years and six months. (Wars, i.1.1)
In addition, contradicting all his other references, Josephus also states that
Daniel saw a very great horn growing out of the head of the he goat; and that when it was broken off, four horns grew up that were exposed to each of the four winds, and he wrote that out of them arose another lesser horn, which, as he said, waxed great; and that God showed to him that it should fight against his nation, and take their city by force, and bring the temple worship to confusion, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for one thousand two hundred and ninety-six days. (Antiquities, x.11.7)

It is obvious that in all these cases there may be some rounding, or estimates that considered various moments deemed relevant in this sad story of the attempt to impose Hellenism on the Jews, as the starting point, or ending point, of the relevant period. The three and a half years of Wars, i.1.1 agree perfectly with the half week mentioned in Dan. 9:27, and possibly with the time, times and half a time of Dan. 7:25; 12:7 (despite the absence of a dual noun). On the other hand, Dan. 12:11 makes the period one month longer, whereas verse 12 makes it one month and a half even longer. In turn, Dan. 8:13 is more modest when it hints at a 1,150-day period. It is likely that the figures in Daniel allude, with a minimum amount of rounding, to three national feasts (other than Sabbaths and New Moon festivals) that followed immediately after the first celebration of Hanukkah. Indeed, on 31 March and 1 April 163 BC, two days short of 110 days (1260 - 1150) after the start of Hanukkah, was the moment when the feast of Purim was celebrated.

This feast didn't exist in the days of the Neo-Babylonian Empire or in the early days of the Persian Empire, but in later centuries it came to represent the survival of the Jewish people amidst adversity. Now on 5 May 163 BC, 2 days beyond 140 days (1290 - 1150) after the restoration of the sanctuary, was the last day of the feast of unleavened bread. Finally, on 18 June, one day beyond the 185 days (1335 - 1150) after Hanukkah, was the feast of Pentecost or of the Weeks.

Taking into account that these festivals, together with the Sabbath, had been banned by Antiochus, their unimpeded continued celebration in sequence might have been considered as the end of the dark days of oppression. The starting point of all these calculations seems to have been 21 October 167 BC, which was the last, or penultimate, day of Tishri, and perhaps it is not entirely coincidental that that day fell on a Sabbath. The 1,296 days of Antiquities, x.11.7 seem to correspond to the 1,290 days of Dan. 12:11..

Every translation I have seen places the 62 weeks after the seven weeks.

Translations are indeed translations. the Hebrew says from the emergence of the word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed will be seven septets, and for sixty two septets the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

ofcourse i don't take this to mean literal weeks but neither do i take them to be weeks of years simply because it's cheer speculation and there seems to be no indication of this!

lets look further: King James; Daniel 9:

26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Now challenge you to prove to me that this anointed was cut-of on the 69th week! It says clearly that he was cut-off after the sixty two septets not during the sixty ninth septets.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

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YeshuamySalvation,

You are the first person I have encountered in over 33 years to make such a proposition. Every scholar I have met has stated emphatically that this is in reference to "years", not "weeks".

The Hebrew word used here is actually translated "sevens", not "weeks", which is consistent with the Hebrew notion of heptades, groups of seven years, comparable to our decades, groups of ten years. Every seven years, the Jews were supposed to allow the land to rest for one year (Lev 25:1-7). At the end of every seven sets of seven (49 years), beginning in the 50th year, was a year of Jubilee, in which all debt was to be forgiven (Lev 25:8-55).

Actually you did not quite understand me when i said literal weeks of times; i doubt anybody did. I don't mean literal weeks considering that proceeding the cutting of the anointed the next event that proceeds it took years not weeks, i mean periods of times and phases rather, i truly failed to make myself clear. Yet we do not have any proof that this is refering to weeks of years because when we conjecture in this manner we are expanding it way to far ahead of the context.