What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[Clare73]

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Are you physically descended from Abraham or counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith?

I am counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith in Christ, which places me in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham and, thereby, makes me a descendant of Abraham.
My being a descendant of Abraham has nothing to do with Abraham or adoption by him, and everything to do with being in Christ by faith, who is the descendant of Abraham.

Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

The context is sons of God, not Abraham. Abraham is not our Abba.

In Gal 4:4-6, all are through God; i.e., no longer a slave. . .but a son, and if a son then. . .an heir of God, not of Abraham.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Gal 4:21-31 NASB95 - 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​

Gen 17:4-7 - NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.

Which he was.
Were those descendants "adopted" or were they seed? I am the seed of Abraham only by being in Christ, who is the seed of Abraham.

5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.​

Keeping in mind that all the promises to Abraham were to Christ only (Gal 3:16).

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

The use of "father" does not always mean either generation or adoption.
George Washington is the father of this nation, neither by generation nor by adoption, but by precession, as Abraham is the father of faith, by precession.

There is nothing there about being adopted by Abraham, I see only that those of faith in Christ are his seed (descendants) because they are in Christ, who is Abraham's seed.
Seed is not adopted, seed is generated.

Conclusion:
You have presented no Biblical demonstration of NT believers being adopted by Abraham.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense. For example:

View attachment 330742

Taken out of context and presented almost as if she supports the notion of adoption by Abraham, and that she thinks you failed to support it.

 

[Gup20]

Taken out of context and presented almost as if she supports the notion of adoption by Abraham, and that she thinks you failed to support it.

Willingly ignoring the truth isn’t an argument.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham

They weren’t born sons, they became sons by faith. When you become someone’s son who didn’t conceive you, that is adoption.

Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB95) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Romans 9:4 (NASB95) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Isaiah 54:1 (NASB95) “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

If you didn’t give birth to your sons, they are adopted!!

Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

[Gup20]

I can't find the part where we are adopted, I see only that those of faith in Christ are his seed (descendants) because they are in Christ, who is Abraham's seed.
Seed is not adopted.

In Christ we are born again… that is a new creature, not adoption. But before the Holy Spirit can come into us and join with us creating a new creature, we must be cleansed & made righteous, for the Holy Spirit will not be unequally yoked and has no communion with sin… so our unregenerate faith qualifies us for human adoption to become the adopted descendants of Abraham according to human relations… once qualified as Abraham’s descendant, we inherit Christs righteousness through that kinship. Once cleansed, the Holy Spirit joins with us & we become born again.

Ezekiel 36:25-28 (NASB95) 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 “You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Abrahamic Covenant will be fulfilled)

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:14-19 (NASB95) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB95) 5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your seed be.” 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Verse 6 is the promise of righteousness to Abraham & his seed. We are “fellow heirs” with Christ according to this promise because our faith qualifies is as the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 2:29 (NASB95) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB95) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB95) 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 2:33 (NASB95) “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

 

[BBAS 64]

You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense. For example:

View attachment 330742

Good Day, Gup

Irrelevant I agree.

Because you assertion of " Adoption By Abraham" has no basis within the text of Scripture.

Adding ideas and principles to the text with out a Textual basis the other side of the coin and is very concerning to me, it is known as eisegesis.

Eisegesis for the most part is caused by a very unfunctional and deficient Hermeneutic, unlike Clare's.

I do think it is good that we have some of that here by you, be sure it helps people see error more consistently so in that way it is useful.

So thanks for the example you provided.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

In Christ we are born again… that is a new creature, not adoption.

It is both. . .new birth and adoption are not mutually exclusive.
We are born again of God (Jn 1:3),
children of God (Jn 1:12),
adopted as sons of God (Ro 8:23),
receiving God's Spirit of adoption (Ro 8:15) and
receiving adoption (Gr: huiothesia); i.e., full rights of sons, of God (Gal 4:5).

But before the Holy Spirit can come into us and join with us creating a new creature, we must be cleansed & made righteous, for the Holy Spirit will not be unequally yoked and has no communion with sin… so our unregenerate faith

Where do we find unregenerate faith, in its NT meaning, in the NT?
There is much misappropriation of NT words in your presentation; e.g., of faith, inherit, impute (apply), promise, seed (descendants), adoption.

qualifies us for human adoption to become the adopted descendants of Abraham according to human relations… once qualified as Abraham’s descendant, we inherit Christs righteousness through that kinship.

Pardon me for saying so. . .but that is heresy.

Nowhere in the NT is it presented that we "inherit" Christ's righteousness.
Christ's righteousness is imputed (accounted, reckoned, applied) to us (Ro 4:1-11), just as it was to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).
"Imputed" is not "inherited." The sinful nature is inherited, righteousness is imputed (accounted to, applied to).

And nowhere in the NT does Christ's righteousness being imputed to us have anything to do with Abraham.
Righteousness (justification) is solely by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25, 22) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing (forensical righteousness, "not guilty") with God (Ro 3:28).
We do not "inherit" Christ's righteousness, it is imputed (applied) to us by faith in him, as it was imputed to Abraham (Ro 4:1-11)
by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5), seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Once cleansed, the Holy Spirit joins with us & we become born again.
Ezekiel 36:25-28 (NASB95) 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 “You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Abrahamic Covenant will be fulfilled)
Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Yes, we are the sons (seed) of Abraham, but there is no statement of "by adoption" there.
We are the sons (seed) of Abraham by being in Christ (Gal 3:29), who is the seed of Abraham to whom all the promises were made (Gal 3:16).

Galatians 3:14-19 (NASB95) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB95) 5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your seed be.” 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Verse 6 is the promise of righteousness to Abraham & his seed.

That is not a "promise". . .that is an imputation (application).
To "reckon" is "to impute/credit/apply to," it is not "to promise to," it is to actually apply to.
See Ro 4:11 of yours below.

The promise is seed and an everlasting possession (Ge 12:2-3, 7, 15:18-20, 17:4-8).

The confusion of "promise" (Ge 15:5) with "imputation" (Ge 15:6) is the error on which your wheel turns.

We are “fellow heirs” with Christ according to this promise because our faith qualifies is as the descendants of Abraham.

Our faith qualifies us to be in Christ, who is the seed of Abraham, thereby making us fellow heirs with Christ to whom alone all the promises were made (Gal 3:16).

You keep leaving out the most important factor of our inheritance from Abraham as his descendants; it is the result of being in Christ.
Instead, you have our being in Christ as the result of being Abraham's descendants.

And this heresy is the result of the error on which your wheel turns.

Romans 2:29 (NASB95) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

That phrase, "righteousness credited" is the meaning of "righteousness imputed" in Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3.
"Imputed" does not mean "promised," it means "credited to, applied to."

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB95) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB95) 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 2:33 (NASB95) “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the promise of (not the imputation, crediting, applying of) the OT.

Conclusion:
You have presented no Biblical demonstration that our being in Christ is the result of being Abraham's descendants.

 

[msortwell]

Unregenerate faith is not a faith that has any part in salvation.

 

[Gup20]

Good Day, Gup

Irrelevant I agree.

Because you assertion of " Adoption By Abraham" has no basis within the text of Scripture.

Abraham is dead and gone. How does one become a son of Abraham today?

Gal 3:6-7 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Abraham had 2 sons... Ishmael and Isaac. But if I have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I am counted as a son of Abraham. This is not by birth, because upon being born again I am a son of God. Like a man and woman's seed join, when our spirit combines with the Holy Spirit, there is a new creation. Therefore, it must be adoption.

Whom do you presume is doing all the adoption in the verses I mentioned (see post 143)?

 

[Gup20]

Where do we find unregenerate faith, in its NT meaning, in the NT?

Jhn 16:7-9 NASB95 - 7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;​

​

Act 2:33 NASB95 - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.​

All of Jesus' disciples. None of them were born again or regenerated until after Jesus' ascension because the Holy Spirit had not been given in that way until the day of Pentecost. Yet, they all had faith in Jesus as Messiah.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

The Bile is absolutely explicit. The indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one believes the gospel, not before. Furthermore, Paul said:

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

​

Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Paul literally quotes the passage which says DO NOT EVEN SAY that you need the Holy Spirit to come down from heaven to make you hear the gospel and obey it. But every Calvinist says exactly that.

Nowhere in the NT is it presented that we "inherit" Christ's righteousness.

Mat 19:29 NASB95 - 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.​

Righteousness is life.

Pro 12:28 NASB95 - 28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in [its] pathway there is no death.​

Rom 5:18, 21 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. ... 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Gal 3:21 NASB95 - 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Eze 33:19 NASB95 - 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.​

Rom 1:17 NASB95 - 17 For in it [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."​

1Pe 2:24 NASB95 - 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.​

Gal 3:6-9, 11, 13 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ... 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"​

2Co 5:21 NASB95 - 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

Jesus is God. The righteousness of God is the righteousness of Christ. Jesus gave up his LIFE, so He gave up his RIGHTEOUSNESS to become a curse for us. He became sin so that we could become righteous.

I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.

Rom 4:13 NASB95 - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Gal 4:5-6 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"​

So Jesus' life or righteous spirit has come into us.

Death comes by sin, and life comes by righteousness. For Jesus to give up His life, he had to give up His righteousness and take upon Himself our sin.

Isa 53:6 NASB95 - 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.​

"Imputed" is not "inherited." The sinful nature is inherited, righteousness is imputed (accounted to, applied to).

Act 7:2-5 NASB95 - 2 And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran, 3 and said to him, 'LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY AND YOUR RELATIVES, AND COME INTO THE LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.' 4 "Then he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. From there, after his father died, [God] had him move to this country in which you are now living. 5 "But He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot of ground, and [yet,] even when he had no child, He promised that HE WOULD GIVE IT TO HIM AS A POSSESSION, AND TO HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.​

Eph 1:11-14, 18 NASB95 - 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. ... 18 [I pray that] the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Col 1:12 NASB95 - 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Col 3:24 NASB95 - 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

Heb 9:15 NASB95 - 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were [committed] under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1Pe 1:4 NASB95 - 4 to [obtain] an inheritance [which is] imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heb 6:12 NASB95 - 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

I will get to the rest after our house church finishes... we meet Friday nights. My guests have started to arrive.

 

[Clare73]

Abraham is dead and gone. How does one become a son of Abraham today?
Gal 3:6-7 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Abraham had 2 sons... Ishmael and Isaac. But if I have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I am counted as a son of Abraham.

Abraham's faith was in the gospel, "All nations will be blessed through you," (Gal 3:8), which is faith in Christ himself, not in
the "gospel of" Christ; which is, "The time has come. Repent and believe the good news. The Kingdom of God is here." (Mk 1:15)

And which omits again the factor of Jesus Christ himself; i.e., that faith in Christ places one in Christ, who is the "son" of Abraham, thereby also making oneself the same.
It is only in Christ that I am a son of Abraham as Christ is. . .adoption by Abraham having nothing to do with any of it.

This is not by birth, because upon being born again I am a son of God. Like a man and woman's seed join, when our spirit combines with the Holy Spirit, there is a new creation.

Humans do not have spiritual seed to combine with anything. We cannot produce spiritual (God's divine eternal) life.
Spiritual death, caused by Adam, is the absence of God's divine eternal life in the human spirit, which spirit is immortal.
Rebirth is the Holy Spirit imparting God's divine eternal life into our human spirit, which Adam lost for us.

Therefore, it must be adoption.

Whom do you presume is doing all the adoption in the verses I mentioned (see post 143)?

They all refer to being adopted sons of God (Eph 1:5, Ro 8:15, Gal 4:5) where the Gr. huiothesia is "adoption" (full rights of a son).

 

[msortwell]

Jhn 16:7-9 NASB95 - 7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;​

​

Act 2:33 NASB95 - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.​

All of Jesus' disciples. None of them were born again or regenerated until after Jesus' ascension because the Holy Spirit had not been given in that way until the day of Pentecost. Yet, they all had faith in Jesus as Messiah.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

The Bile is absolutely explicit. The indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one believes the gospel, not before. Furthermore, Paul said:

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

​

Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Paul literally quotes the passage which says DO NOT EVEN SAY that you need the Holy Spirit to come down from heaven to make you hear the gospel and obey it. But every Calvinist says exactly that.

Mat 19:29 NASB95 - 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.​

Righteousness is life.

Pro 12:28 NASB95 - 28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in [its] pathway there is no death.​

Rom 5:18, 21 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. ... 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Gal 3:21 NASB95 - 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Eze 33:19 NASB95 - 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.​

Rom 1:17 NASB95 - 17 For in it [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."​

1Pe 2:24 NASB95 - 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.​

Gal 3:6-9, 11, 13 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ... 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"​

2Co 5:21 NASB95 - 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

Jesus is God. The righteousness of God is the righteousness of Christ. Jesus gave up his LIFE, so He gave up his RIGHTEOUSNESS to become a curse for us. He became sin so that we could become righteous.

I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.

Rom 4:13 NASB95 - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Gal 4:5-6 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"​

So Jesus' life or righteous spirit has come into us.

Death comes by sin, and life comes by righteousness. For Jesus to give up His life, he had to give up His righteousness and take upon Himself our sin.

Isa 53:6 NASB95 - 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.​

Act 7:2-5 NASB95 - 2 And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran, 3 and said to him, 'LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY AND YOUR RELATIVES, AND COME INTO THE LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.' 4 "Then he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. From there, after his father died, [God] had him move to this country in which you are now living. 5 "But He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot of ground, and [yet,] even when he had no child, He promised that HE WOULD GIVE IT TO HIM AS A POSSESSION, AND TO HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.​

Eph 1:11-14, 18 NASB95 - 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. ... 18 [I pray that] the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,​

​

Col 1:12 NASB95 - 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​

​

Col 3:24 NASB95 - 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.​

​

Heb 9:15 NASB95 - 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were [committed] under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.​

​

1Pe 1:4 NASB95 - 4 to [obtain] an inheritance [which is] imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,​

​

Heb 6:12 NASB95 - 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

I will get to the rest after our house church finishes... we meet Friday nights. My guests have started to arrive.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration. But there is no scripture that equates indwelling by the Holy Spirit with regeneration. That is a fabrication. Every argument built upon that false assumption cannot be trusted.

 

[Clare73]

Jhn 16:7-9 NASB95 - 7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;​

Act 2:33 NASB95 - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.​

All of Jesus' disciples. None of them were born again or regenerated until after Jesus' ascension

Not according to Jn 20:22.

because the Holy Spirit had not been given in that way until the day of Pentecost.

Pentecost was a special empowerment of the apostles to take the gospel to the world, which empowerment was accompanied with the sign of tongues.

Yet, they all had faith in Jesus as Messiah.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way​

The Bile is absolutely explicit. The indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one believes the gospel, not before.​

You assume that regeneration and indwelling are the same operation. Logically the order is:
regeneration, followed by faith, followed by sealing--giving the Holy Spirit within, who is the seal of our salvation, his power within enabling the Christian life.

Furthermore, Paul said:

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Paul literally quotes the passage which says DO NOT EVEN SAY that you need the Holy Spirit to come down from heaven to make you hear the gospel and obey it. But every Calvinist says exactly that.​

Actually Paul is referring to Christ, not the Holy Spirit, and saying that righteousness by faith does not require heroic deeds.

Mat 19:29 NASB95 - 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Righteousness is life.

Pro 12:28 NASB95 - 28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in [its] pathway there is no death.​

Meaning that the way or path of righteousness does not lead to death.

Rom 5:18, 21 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. ... 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Gal 3:21 NASB95 - 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Eze 33:19 NASB95 - 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.​

Rom 1:17 NASB95 - 17 For in it [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."​

1Pe 2:24 NASB95 - 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.​

Gal 3:6-9, 11, 13 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." ... 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"​

2Co 5:21 NASB95 - 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

Jesus is God. The righteousness of God is the righteousness of Christ. Jesus gave up his LIFE, so He gave up his RIGHTEOUSNESS to become a curse for us. He became sin so that we could become righteous.

The penalty for sin is loss of life (death, Ro 6:23), it is not loss of righteousness.

I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.

You are seriously misinformed. . .

Conclusion:
You have not Biblically demonstrated that regeneration comes after faith, nor that Jesus "gave up his righteousness."

 

[msortwell]

Gup20 said, “I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.”

Wow! SO wrong.

 

[Gup20]

However, what you presented to me was that being a son of Abraham is what accounted for me being in Christ.
You presented Son of Abraham as the cause, and being in Christ as the effect, whereas
in Gal 3:29, being in Christ is the cause, and son of Abraham is the effect.

Actually I presented the notion that hearing & believing the gospel of Jesus Christ was the cause for Abraham and his descendants to be made righteous.

The Abrahamic covenant is the vehicle or mechanism for applying the covenant to Abraham & qualifying & applying the promise to adopted descendants - those who have the same faith I. The gospel which Abraham had.

Gods promise to Abraham & to his seed (Jesus) is the cause of you being “in Christ.”

Galatians 3:19 (NASB95) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The Abrahamic promise is really just a promise between God the Father & God the Son which we are privileged to be invited to be a part of.

You are seriously misinformed. . .

Ah, so you do believe that Jesus spiritually died and was separated from God at His death?

Gup20 said, “I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.”

Wow! SO wrong.

Ok, I would love to be wrong about this. So do you believe Jesus died spiritually and was separated from God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know that Calvinists do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- they say Christ didn't actually die spiritually (death is separation from God) and therefore didn't resurrect from the dead. To me, denying the death and resurrection of Christ is heresy.

Excuse me???? Find me a Calvinist that doesn't believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!!!

 

[Gup20]

Excuse me???? Find me a Calvinist that doesn't believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!!!

I found many. Just so we’re clear, you believe Jesus died both physically & spiritually, having been separated from God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I found many. Just so we’re clear, you believe Jesus died both physically & spiritually, having been separated from God?

Jesus is God, no? Two natures, one human, the other divine. He died physically, his human spirit paid my debt (death), but no, his divinity did not die.

 

[Clare73]

Actually I presented the notion that hearing & believing the gospel of Jesus Christ was the cause for Abraham and his descendants to be made righteous.

First of all, the gospel which Abraham believed was the gospel, "All nations will be blessed through you," (Ge 12:3, Gal 3:8), which is faith in Christ himself, not in the "gospel of" Christ, which gospel is, "The time has come. Repent and believe the good news. The Kingdom of God is here." (Mk 1:15)

And secondly, it was by faith in the promise of Ge 15:5 (seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), not by faith in his call (Gal 3:8) of Ge 12:3, by which righteousness was imputed (credited, applied) to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Overlooking and not making these important distinctions is the cause of much of your error.

The Abrahamic covenant is the vehicle or mechanism for applying the covenant to Abraham & qualifying & applying the promise to adopted descendants - those who have the same faith I. The gospel which Abraham had.

That no one is an "adopted" descendant of Abraham has already been Biblically demonstrated to you (post #146).

Gods promise to Abraham & to his seed (Jesus) is the cause of you being “in Christ”

God's promise to Abraham was seed and an everlasting possession.

And no, it is faith in Christ which is the cause of my being "in Christ," it has nothing to do with Abraham.
However, it is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that there is a Christ, but not that I am in Christ. . .that is by faith, not by Abraham.

Likewise, the promise itself has no power, only by faith in the promise (Christ) is righteousness imputed (applied), whether there is an Abraham or not.
Abraham is not the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ. Only faith in Christ (the promise) is that cause.

Galatians 3:19 (NASB95) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The Abrahamic promise is really just a promise between God the Father & God the Son which we are privileged to be invited to be a part of.

The promises to Abraham were all made to the Seed, Christ (Gal 3:16)--both the promise of seed (Ge 12:2-3) and the promise of an everlasting possession (Ge 12:7, Ge 15:18-20, Ge 17:4-8).
The people of God are the seed promised (Gal 3:29), and heavenly land (Heb 11:13:16) is the everlasting possession promised (Ge 17:8).

Ah, so you do believe that Jesus spiritually died and was separated from God at His death?

"Died spiritually" has to be clarified.

You are using "spiritually" in the sense in which Paul uses it; i.e., that which is of the Holy Spirit.
In Paul's usage, "spiritual" death is the absence of God's divine eternal life in the immortal human spirit (2 Co 5:1-8, Php 1:23-24).
That does not mean death of the immortal human spirit itself.

Conclusion:
You have not Biblically demonstrated that God's promise to Abraham of seed, rather than our faith, is the cause of our being in Christ.

 

[Gup20]

That no one is an "adopted" descendant of Abraham has already been Biblically demonstrated to you

This was an assertion on your part, unsupported by evidence. It was easily dismissed because it was an unsubstantiated claim.

No, faith in the promise (Christ) is the reason righteousness (right standing with God's justice) was credited (imputed) to them (Ge 15:6; Ro 4:3).

I didn’t say it was the cause of THEM … I said it was the cause of YOU being in Christ. Abraham was the first and only person to whom righteousness was given as a direct result of their faith. The rest of us receive it as an inheritance from our father Abraham. So to us, it is indirect.

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB95) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

Jesus did not resurrect himself from the dead. Oh, He had the right & the ability to do it alright, but He allowed Himself to be killed & to be resurrected through Abraham’s eternal covenant so that the covenant would be fulfilled & effective. If He had taken back His life & righteousness because it was His, we too would get back our sin because it’s ours. But Christ allowed Himself to be resurrected by the grace of the covenant instead. In so doing He granted His righteousness to Abraham so that ALL who were qualified as his descendants might also be credited with it. So Christ’s righteousness is an inheritance from Abraham, and in so doing this is the mechanism for multiplying the righteousness of one man to the many.

Romans 4:11-13 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

The promise itself has no power, only by faith in the promise (Christ) is righteousness imputed (applied), whether there is an Abraham or not.
Abraham is not the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ. Only faith in Christ (the promise) is that cause.

I agree in part. I believe you are searching for a way to say that Abraham is not the source or originator - and this I agree with. God was the source or author because He first preached the gospel to Abraham.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

I disagree however because the promise of God has infinite power because the promise of God is the word of God, and by the Word of God the universe itself conforms to Gods Word and promise. For God said “let there be light” when the light didn’t yet exist, and there was so much power in that promise that the universe obeyed Him. This is why it is impossible for God to lie… the universe itself conforms to His Word, and the lie would become true.

Paul makes this very argument in Roman’s 4:17 when he says God calls into being that which does not exist by His promise.

The author of Hebrews recognized this as well.

Hebrews 6:12-20 (NASB95) 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Zechariah 6:12-13 (NASB95) 12 “Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 “Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

Isaiah 11:1-2 (NASB95) 1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NASB95) 5 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. 6 “In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, ‘The LORD our righteousness.’

Luke 1:54-55 (NASB95) 54 “He has given help to Israel His servant, In remembrance of His mercy, 55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and his descendants forever.”

Luke 1:72-73 (NASB95) 72 To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,

Hebrews 11:13 (NASB95) All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

John 8:56-58 (NASB95) 56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

BTW - if you’re ever discussing the Trinity with our Jewish brothers & sisters, show them this:

Genesis 18:1-2 (NASB95) 1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

Abraham literally met Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

This was an assertion on your part, unsupported by evidence. It was easily dismissed because it was an unsubstantiated claim.

Are you paying attention?

What was not presented was any Biblical evidence nor statement of the Christian being "adopted" by Abraham, only your assertion of such, not to mention that ole Abe was dead centuries before there was a Christian, and was in no position to "adopt" any Christian, as God is able to do now.

What is presented is that
"God sent forth his son. . .so that we might receive adoption as (his) sons. And because we are (his) sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts (not the spirit of Abraham's son, Isaac), crying "Abba! Father!' (Abraham is not our Abba.) So through God you are a son (not through Abraham), and if a son then an heir." (Gal 4:4-6)."

Heir to what? "Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ (as adopted sons of God) . . .sharing in his (Christ's) glory" (Ro 8:17). . .
not heirs of Abraham and co-heirs with Isaac, sharing in Isaac's glory.

The entirety of your argument in the above for "adoption" by Abraham is taken out of context of the above, which is adoption as a "son of God," and which argument is then made into adoption as a "son of Abraham," with righteousness flowing from Abraham to Christ (!) to us.
Christ does not "receive" his righteousness through sinful man!
You don't see the outrageous contra-NT doctrine of Christ which this presents. . .the all-righteous divine Son of God receiving righteousness from sinful man? . . .Anathema!
Your out-of-context "hermeneutic" has reduced God's economy to material ends by material means.

As descendants of Abraham in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham, we inherit the promises to Abraham,
we do not inherit the imputation (application) of righteousness, which imputation is by faith in Christ and is not a promise anywhere in the OT.

As stated in post #146, this confusion of the "promise" to Abraham (Ge 15:5) with "imputation" of righteousness to Abraham (Ge 15:6) is the error on which your whole theology turns.

I didn’t say it was the cause of THEM … I said it was the cause of YOU being in Christ. Abraham was the first and only person to whom righteousness was given as a direct result of their faith. The rest of us receive it as an inheritance from our father Abraham.

Not according to Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-22, Php 3:9, where righteousness is from God (not Abraham) by faith.

Nor according to Ro 4:1-11, where
"Abraham is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised,"
in that he was the predecessor ("father") of all who are made righteous by faith in the promise (Ge 15:6, seed--Christ, Gal 3:16), not by law-keeping (circumcision).
Abraham was the father of (the "nation" of) those made righteous by faith in the promise (Christ),
as George Washington is the father of this nation, in that both are the first, the predecessor--
Abraham of righteousness by faith in the promise (Christ), and George Washington of elected leadership to the presidency.

There is only one way of justification (righteousness); i.e., by faith (Ro 4:12).
Abraham as the predecessor of righteousness has nothing to do with the righteousness of the born-again (Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-22, Php 3:9),
just as George Washington as the predecessor of presidents has nothing to do with being the president today.

So to us, it is indirect.
Hebrews 13:20 (NASB95) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Jesus did not resurrect himself from the dead. Oh, He had the right & the ability to do it alright, but

He allowed Himself to be killed & to be resurrected through Abraham’s eternal covenant so that the covenant would be fulfilled & effective. If He had taken back His life & righteousness because it was His, we too would get back our sin because it’s ours. But Christ allowed Himself to be resurrected by the grace of the covenant instead. In so doing He granted His righteousness to Abraham so that ALL who were qualified as his descendants might also be credited with it.

But Abraham was dead and gone for almost 2000 years before Christ allegedly granted his own righteousness to Abraham.
So those who believed in the promise (Christ) for the next 2,000 years after Abraham were not made righteous by faith as was Abraham?
So Christ inherited his righteousness from Abraham, but all Abraham's descendants for almost 2,000 years before Christ did not?

So Christ’s righteousness is an inheritance from Abraham, and in so doing this is the mechanism for multiplying the righteousness of one man to the many.

Absolutely no Biblical testimony to such a preposterous notion. . .that the divine Son of God inherits his righteousness from fallen man.

Romans 4:11-13 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. will be
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Where does it say we receive righteousness as an "inheritance" from Abraham?
Everywhere does it say those who are of the faith of Abraham (one doesn't inherit his faith) receive righteousness by faith as did Abraham (Ro 4:1-11).

I agree in part. I believe you are searching for a way to say that Abraham is not the source or originator -

No, I am saying what I said, that Abraham was not the conduit, means, cause, etc. of our being in Christ.

and this I agree with. God was the source or author because He first preached the gospel to Abraham.

Only faith in Christ (the promise) is the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ.

The gospel preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8) was: "All the nations shall be blessed through you," (Ge 12:3, 18:18, 22:18), a promise of Christ, by which faith in that promise of Christ (Ge 15:5) is credited (imputed) as righteousness to all who believed in the promise.

Nor did God have to preach the gospel to Abraham in order to be the source of righteousness. He is the source with or without faith if he so chooses.

I disagree however because the promise of God has infinite power because the promise of God is the word of God, and by the Word of God the universe itself conforms to Gods Word and promise. For God said “let there be light” when the light didn’t yet exist, and there was so much power in that promise that the universe obeyed Him. This is why it is impossible for God to lie… the universe itself conforms to His Word, and the lie would become true.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Paul makes this very argument in Roman’s 4:17 when he says God calls into being that which does not exist by His promise.
The author of Hebrews recognized this as well.

EDIT: Irrelevant. . .there is no promise of righteousness to Abraham, the promise is of seed and an everlasting possession/inheritance.

Conclusion:
You have not Biblically demonstrated in
your post #160 any error in
my post #158, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #154.